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Subject: I agree to some extent Author: Mark7 [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 08:55:31 10/11/01 Thu In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Questionaire" on 22:04:35 10/07/01 Sun With some few exceptions, after WW2, Arabs and Muslims have proved to chose or accept extraordinary bad leaderships. Israel has both benefited and suffered because of it. It suffered because it is hard to make peace with an enemy that is loosly organized. I really don't believe Arafat can tell Hamas, or the Islamic Jihad what to do. But this ambivalence also benefited Israel, because it allowed it to kill the spirit of any peace accord signed. Sharon, Israel, and the US government hold Yasser Arrafat and the Palestinian authority at a level that would not be acceptable to any established government. When a suicide terrorist blasts himself in Tel Aviv, Israel and the US governments cry "Arafat". Yet when a 31 year old Jewish settler kills an unarmed 12 year old Palestinian, a Jewish court sets the Israeli free, and the US media kills the story so no Bible humping "creationist" educated American idiot can get a clue. Arafat cannot control suicide bombers any more than Bush or Clinton could control Timothy McVeigh. Israel cannot control the rage of settlers, but it can put in prison those who commit acts of terror. My problem with Israel, and its people is that they CHOSE NOT TO PUNISH THEIR OWN CRIMIANALS AND TERRORSITS. My problem with the US government is that it is unfair, theirfore it incites and perpetuates retaliation. My problem with the US media is that it choses to dehumanize Arabs and Muslims in general, and by doing so, it doesn't allow for dialogue. And if we look at history, we did the same thing with the Spanish in the Cuban war. We decided they blew up a ship that most historians today believe Spanish didn't, we stopped dialog, we assumed Spain's guilt, we went to war and we won because we were stronger. And he had only problems with Cuba since. Clue. I would like to see proof of Bin Laden's involvement. And we are now facing one of the most crucial moments in our history. Indeed, our democracy is at stake. GW Bush is claiming that not even our Congress is supposed to know what our military is doing and who they are killing or why. He is proposing laws that diminish rights under law for many classes of people, and American citizens, and in facto abolishes the constitution. I hope that in spite of the anger and collective hysteria, the US supreme court will not allow "unlimited preventive detention". Really, if they don't.... God Save America. We are slowly changing into THEM. Godless, lawless, angry criminals with no real goals, no desire for dialog, just lust for blood. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> Subject: Re: I agree to some extent Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:41:36 10/11/01 Thu I agree with some of your post. It's true that Arafat and the government, such as it is of the PA does not send every suicide bomber and is often not directly responsible. It's also not fair to insist that they hold suspected terrorists who are not accused of specific crimes. Trouble is though that they also let out those who are accused of specific crimes. But we don't want to get too bogged down in personalities. If Arafat and Sharon didn't exist, that wouldn't by itself mean peace in the Middle East by a longshot. I have a problem, myself with Israel often holding people in jail without filing charges. This is one policy I wish they would end. File charges or release people, but to hold people without filing charges gives the police too much random power and I don't believe any country should do this. Much like the unlimited preventive detention you mention later. This is already the policy in both Israel and most Arab states and I do agree that we shouldn't follow a policy that is not only unconstitutional but arbitrary. I'm an oldfashioned conservative. I don't believe in granting the government any more power than necessary, especially arbitrary power. Unfortunately many modern so-called conservatives are turning conservatism on its head and forgetting that limiting the government and protecting individual rights is supposed to be the whole basis of conservatism. The antiterrorism bill really overeaches. As for the Spanish-American war, it's even worse than you think. Teddy Roosevelt said "We showed those Dagos" not exactly the statement you want from an American leader.

[> [> [> Subject: Achile Lauro? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:51:58 10/11/01 Thu Was that the name of the Mediteranean cruiser that was highjacked while back by Palestinian Terrorists? The first thing they did, was they killed an old, invalid American Jew, because he was Jewish. A stupid act, worthy of the idiots who did it. At the time the press was understandebly revolted that someone would be killed simply because it was of the same ethnic background as an enemy state. But isn't Israel doing the same thing when they claim not to be able to allow Palestinians rights in their own country because of what the Sirian government is doing? What kind of a stupid claim is that? We're going to keep Gaza and the West Bank as a occupied territories, and the 3rd generation of Palestinians will be hostages because we don't want to give back the Golan hights to Siria, and Siria won't sign peace. I really really think the Israeli government, and most of the Israeli people do not want peace. At least they want to grab more territory more than they want peace. Actually, the voting polls in Israel have said the same thing. Sharon is not only a hardliner, but also a man tainted by terrorism himself. It just makes me puke when I see Sharon, and other Israeli goverment officials shed crocodile tears about terrorism, when so many of them at one point of another have been accused of terrorism. Ben Gurion has been on British wanted lists as a terrorist in the 40s. Sharon is wanted in relation with massacres in Lebanon. The Mosad has openly assassinated many people throughout Europe, people that could not be accused of breaking any laws, but were a threat to Israel for one reason or another, many of them European citizens. If their secret agency is killing people that have not been accused of anything, how can Sharon or Shamir talk about terrorism? There is no terrorist threat greater than the terror generated by the man in uniform, with a license to kill. And the fact that Bush jr. is copying Israel's legislation in terms of legal rights of non-citizens should be reason of concern for anybody. Imagine you are traveling in France, and the French police can legaly detain you indefinitelly, without reason, simply because you are not a citizen of France. Oh, but we are Americans, and we can get away with crap nobody else does, and we're darn mad if someone doesn't appreciate our crap.

[> [> [> [> Subject: The election Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:58:20 10/12/01 Fri I have no love for Sharon, by any means but let's not forget how we got here. Barak offered the PA 90% of what they wanted at Camp David under great pressure from Bill Clinton. They rejected it and the start of the uprising and constant terrorizing of Israel that has gone on for the last year started. When people saw that Barak looked impotent and couldn't do anything in the face of these constant provocations, they voted for Sharon thinking he would offer better protection. Granted, Sharon set some of this off himself, going to the Moslem temple which he knew would outrage moslems. It was a deliberate act that he hoped would eventually lead to his election, since it would cause violence and people would want to turn to him for protection. Cynical and it's a pity that it worked, but it's not the main reason we got here. Golda Meir's quote that the "Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" is still true. So is her other quote that "Israel will not die so that the world will speak well of her."

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Get a clue Jeff Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:54:26 10/13/01 Sat Israel is breaking every international law with settling Jews into the occupied territories. Plus, it keeps the Arab populations as hostages, for a third generation. You know it's wrong, I know it's wrong, you're Jewish, so you don't care it's wrong, I'm not Jewish, so I care that wrong doing has a price, and I don't want that price paid by American lives. Yes, all countries have been born by clensing others that lived before them. Americans did exactly the same thing to Natives. Europeans did it too, only one thousand years ago, sometimes more. But damn it, why should we, Americans get involved in this Jewish problem, and why should our hands be full of Arab inocent blood. I say like Pilat from Pont. Let the Jews do their own killings and pay for their own wars of conquest. The only reason why we are involved is because our politicians are bought by Jewish lobby money - both Dems, and Reps. But I wish G.W. Bush will do his dirty work and not talk to me about the 10 commandments, God, and morality from God, because what the Israelis do in the occupied territories is breaking all the commandments in the Bible, and no damn Bible thumper in America who tells idiots that morality comes from God wants to mention the thousands of Palestinian children murdered in cold blood by Israeli army and settlers with American weapons and money. And this will have to stop if we are to have peace. But GW doesn't want peace, he wants war, like all conservative fundamentalists of all religions and races. And we shall have war. The war that Osama Bin Ladins of the Islam, and the Bushes and the Christian fundamentalists and the Zionists all want us to have. Like the glorious failure has said, there is no room for neutrality. You are either with the Christian Cruciaders and their Jewish terrorist friend in Mossad, or with the damn islamic fundamentalists nutcases. Osama has already won. We have been doing everything he wanted us to do. We turned the people of the Muslim countries against the moderate elements in their governments. We bombed Afganistan, and should we kill Osama, we have made a martyr out of him. Let me be a prophet, prophet Mark. We are building thug Musharaf into a leader, like we built Saddam, and Osama in their times. In 10 years we shall have our showdown with Pakistan, just like the showdown with Irak. In the meantime more Palestinian children will be killed in the name of Yehova and the 10 commandments and the morality you claim comes from God, and more land will be robbed, and more Israeli thugs will shed tears about the evil of Palestinian desperados who blow themselves up when their own houses are buldozed by the biggest terrorist of all, the terrorists with uniforms, badges and training. And more undeducated Americans will loze their lives wondering why would Palestinians hate Americans so much. http://www.jmcc.org/research/special/soviet.html http://www.medea.be/en/index164.htm

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: When you get one Mark Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:03:25 10/15/01 Mon I know this is very hard for you, but try and deal with reality. The reality has not changed. Israel is still a small country surrounded by hostile countries bent on her demise. The only peace treaty that counts would be a comprehensive one involving all parties in the region. Second, I repeat, since you miss the point as usual. Israel took great risks for peace at Camp David in the closing months of the Clinton administration, making an offer to the PA that no other country would have made and it was rejected. We know from the first Camp David meetings between Israal and Egypt that Israel is always willing to offer land in exchange for peace as long as they get a reasonable guarantee of peace. The peace along the Sinai has worked and letting gaza and the West bank become independant can work too as long as America gives true security guarantees. I tell you again that I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about survival. What's at stake in Israel's war of self-defense is the survival of the Jewish people. America acted immorally in not getting involved to save Jews during the Holocaust (I'm not talking about going to war, but even such a simple thing as taking in refugees) and America and the world has a moral obligation to not abandon them to people trying to murder them again.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Let me see if I got it Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:19:11 10/15/01 Mon Because of what happened to Jews in Europe in WW2, you believe I, an American citizen am morally responsible, therefore, I have the moral obligation (from God) to arm the Israeli Army so they can shoot Palestinian children after they enslaved their parents and buldozed their homes so the land can be stolen and given to Russian Jews? Is this what you Jeff, want America to do? I'm sure that qualifies as a good American citizen with America's interests at heart. As for the moral obligation, what have you done for the right of Kurds to have a homeland? Or to prevent the Tutsis from being massacred? I will re-iterate my position. I support America guaranteeing the borders of Israel, as long as these borders are internationally recognized, according to international law. I do not support the settlements into land occupied by the gun, and frankly since you make such a big fuss about Israel's self defense rights, I also recognize the right of Palestinians to self defense. And here, where I live, when your neighbor comes with a gun and a buldozer upon your house, you have the right to shoot him. As for Israel being a democracy, let me restate: Israel is a democracy, like the Confederacy was a democracy before the civil war. Just as South Africa was a democracy before Mandela. Blacks in the Bantustans were kept down. And like in South Africa's case, America took the side of Evil (I quote Bush). Israel has no right to keep hundreds of thousands of Palestinians HOSTAGES because Israel does not want to return the Golan heigths to Siria and lose most of the fresh water plus the only ski resort in the area. There is no legal, and no moral basis for such an action. And America is siding with Evil and with Terror (again let me use the same Biblican language our glorious president does) when we are arming Israeli thugs in uniform to subdue an entire population and rob them of their land and way of life. Anybody who wishes America continue it's unconditional support of Israel in spite of it's human rights effort does not have the interests of America at heart. A true patriot, a man who really loves his country above other countries (love America above Israel) does not want his compatriots inolved in robbing others and murder. I do not want America to be part of the crimes committed in the occupied territories. You will see Jeff, that more Amerians will start understanding these issues, and siding with me. In spite of the media censorship regarding our policies the middle east, Americans will find what their tax dollars are supporting. And it ain't no moral thing, I know that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: No, and wrapping up Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:56:55 10/16/01 Tue I knew that the odds that you got it weren't high. Let me make some last points, and then I'll bow out of this thread, so we don't keep going in a circle and also because I'm debating this a bit on DP, where Vivian makes your case better than you do, since she can at least stay with a point. I'm actually trying to pin down George7 to post some specific ideas for a solution now. Let me reiterate, so I can try and bring you back to reality. Except for the war in Lebanon and the 1956 war with Egypt, Israel has never started a war. The 1967 war led to the capture of the so-called occupied territories from Jordan. There was never a Palestinian state, so if there is one now, that will be a first. 2. Israel has always traded land for peace. This was proven in the Sinai treaty and again last year when Barak offered the PA most of what it wanted at Camp David and it was rejected. Stop deliberately missing the point, Mark. The Palestinian Authority rejected the offer of an independent state that would give them most of what they wanted. It works the same with the Golan. As soon as Israel gets security guarantees and Syria recognizes her right to exist, there will be a peace treaty. It is however convenient how we overlook Syrian terrorism because Syria doesn't like Iraq. 3. Any peace treaty will have to settle the issue of Jerusalem and this can't be done unless free access to all religions holy sites are guaranteed. When Jordan owned Jerusalem, Jews couldn't get into their holy sites. We will never allow that situation to exist again. 4. Keeping the territories is not in Israels best interest anyway. It's an economic drain to have to keep administering poor areas like this. Moral considerations aside, it's not in Israel's long term interests to have to keep an occupying army and police force either. 5. Isreal is a functioning democracy. There are many Arabs in the governemnt. There cannot be Palestinians from the occupied territories in the government because they are not citizens and citizenship is not an answer. The territories will have to be independant. The minute the PA shows they are serious about peace, negotiations will lead to independance. Every country in the world including the US favors a Palestinian state. Did you catch Blair's statement yesterday? I think he has a chance to play a major role here. He's got a nice quiet effectiveness. 6. It is the moral obligation of the world not to abandon the Jews again. This may at times mean arming them so they are not left at the mercy of terrorists. 7. Israel has shown incredible restraint in the last year given the constant terror and provocations. A good part of this is American pressure. If you take America out of the Middle East, the odds are more Palestinians get killed. 8. A tribunal to charge people in the Middle East with war crimes is OK, so long as people from all sides who committed any are put on trial as in the Balkans. We have to be a little wary of International law as a concept thought, when it is often just a group of countries ganging up on a country as we see too often in the UN. International law is something most countries believe in only when it's convenient(and I don't believe the present German government owes the Jews reparations for World War II, so don't go there). 9. A true patriot gets involved in telling his government what he thinks the obligations that government has. I'm patriotic because I tell the governemnt why it's in their best interests to support Israel. I don't quarrel with the idea that you're patriotic because you tell them the opposite. If that's how you feel, it's your obligation to tell them. It's not your patriotism that's in question. It's your sense of reality. You know GWB tried to ignore reality before the 11th. He tried to pretend the world didn't exist and he could concentrate only on his domestic agenda. It's a funny thing about reality, Mark, you can ignore it for only so long and than it will suddenly bite you in the fanny and even you won't be able to ignore it. Sorry, Israel's not going to sit back and let her citizens be massacred, just so you and others with your views can say "Sorry, I didn't realize it would be like this." With that, I'll bow out of this thread. You can take the last word if you like.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Back on Terror and Terrorists Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:54:19 10/17/01 Wed Israel should not stay back, but I don't see any reason why America shouldn't. More so, I am appaled that we the US have only supported Israel in war, and not in peace. We could and should guarantee firmly their borders if a viable Palestinian state is created and if Palestinian refugees in third countries receive compensation, just as international law demands. The billions of dollars we gave Israel, and Egipt would have been better spent to compensate Palestian refugees from the conflict should they agree to pacify. And I am convinced that without the unconditional military support of the US for Israel, we would have had peace in the middle east long time ago. I also am convinced that there is absolutely no benefit to the US to be supporting Israel, to the contrary, our unconditional support is creating lots of problems. For one thing it antagonizes the entire Arab and Muslim world. It makes them our enemies, because just like the Jews, the Palestinians are not going to stay with their arms crossed while their land is robbed and their children killed. And just as we went to war against the Taliban for supporting Bin Laden, so do Palestinians go to war against America because we arm and aid financially the murderers of their children. As I said, they have a right to self defense as well as Israel, and they are defending the land they were born in and their way of life. The only reason why the US is aiding Israel is because of the proeminence of the Jewish community in the US Frankly, American Jews have so much financial, political and cultural power in this country, that no government can say NO to their demands. And just like you, a majority of American Jews, have decided to be Jews first, Americans second, and to leave their morality somewhere outside of their conscience when it comes to Israel. The 10 commandments so much bragged in this country don't seem to apply to the middle east. Aside from not seeing the stealing of land, the murder of civilians, the assassinations of the MOssad, the torture, and the keeping of an entire nation in bondage, it is shameful how our media is manipulated. If one wants to read any real news about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, one needs to go to European press, because the American press is shamefully controlled and censored of any news that may cast doubt on the "rightness" of the Israeli cause. CAse in point - when 2 Jewish teens from settlements are killed, I have seen countless programs about their lives, their ambitions, their expectations. Over 1000 Palestinian children have been killed last year in the occupied territories (amnesty international data), yet all of them are nameless and faceless, including the 12 year old killed with the but of the rifle by a Jewish settler. I guarantee you that if a Jewish 12 year old was killed with the but of the rifle, his face would be in the first page of all major American newspapers for weeks. What's most revealing about the lack of morality of the Jewish state is the fact that the assassin, the terrorist who killed that child walked free, acquited by a Jewish court (guided by the same 10 commandments Bush so much loves). And it makes us Americans the same, unless we review our relationship with this conflict. It makes us, aids to the assassins of Mossad, and the tortionists, the landsthieves and the killers of 12 year olds. I don't want to part of this, and I would hope no decent human being would give arms to 31 year olds who kill 12 year olds with the butts of their rifles to walk free.