Create a New Forum Admin Login Member Login Contribute to Voyager Search VoyForums Help Desk VoyForums Exchange VoyForums Directory/Categories VoyForums Homepage VoyForums News FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions

[ Show ]

Support VoyForums

[ Shrink ]

VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, [7], 8, 9, 10 ]

Subject: Stop putting words in my mouth Author: JeffF [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 07:37:35 08/03/01 Fri In reply to: Mark7 's message, "I was talking about Morality" on 19:13:07 08/02/01 Thu Mark, you have the right to post muddled messages, but you don't have the right to put words in my mouth. As you say, YOU were talking about morality. I was not. The issue in the middle east isn't morality, it's self defense. Golda Meir said years ago that Israel won't die so that the world will speak well of it and nothing has changed since then. Israel is still one country, looking to live within secure borders that is surrounded by hostile nations and the world is asking her to create another one. Nevertheless, the Palestinians in the West Bank should be made an independant country. Let's call the bluff and see what happens. Let me now answer some of your specific points, if I can unravel them. "You believe morality is objective and comes from God." Actually, I don't believe God belongs in a discussion of Middle East issues, because both sides claim to have God on their side, so it's a nonstarter. Most countries, with any religious base claim to have God on their side when they go to war. The point remains that the Middle East is mostly a land war. "You believe Clinton is immoral" True, but this mostly doesn't have anything to do with Monica. Let's not forget Waco, and the file break in and a host of other things I could name, not to mention that the man is a compulsive liar. Have you forgotten that he bombed two countries as a distraction from his scandal? "Yet I point out that there are far greater immoralities in politics" Never said there weren't. Clinton was just better at insulting our intelligence. There are many things I find more immoral than Clinton. Worst is how we turn a blind eye to countries that we pretend are our friends when we know some of the horrors they are involved in(China for example). We need to be a little more careful in choosing our friends. "You say Arafat and Arab nations justify immoral policies" No, I say every nation has the inalienable right to stand up for itself and that the world is generally hypocritical in putting pressure on the victim. "I asked you what moral riight from which God does Isreal have to take away the lives of 12 year olds who throw stones at tanks" It's not about God. It's about the fact that rocks kill. People say stones like they are talking about pebbles. Most of these rocks are being fired with slingshots and have a long trajectory. They are good at hitting targets. They aren't just being fired at tanks. They are being fired at soldiers in the tanks. I repeat - Israel is showing incredbile restraint in not taking a lot of retaliation after innocent people are killed and trying the assasination policy so that they attempt to get at terrorists and not civilians.' Let's also not forget that most of these kids are being incited by the newspapers and schools into anti-israel violence. "I don't think much about Arafat" It's not just Arafat. It's a good chunk of the leadership including the media which keeps inflaming things and the schools. This is what needs to change if there is ever going to be peace. The Arab and Palestinian papers have to stop fanning flames of war and hate. "But I do not enough about international law to say that Israel is breaking all norms of international laws in the occupied territories." Generally, I don't think much of international law because it's always one sided. They've done pretty well in the Balkans though, actually arresting people from all sides who committed atrocities. This is new and if it could always happen this way, I'd be a bigger supporter of international law. There are some steps that I'll admit Israel should take immediately. Stop arresting people without charging them. Ban torture of suspects. Stop demolishing houses of the families of arrested people. These are steps that should be taken because they are the right thing to do and because they will help build confidence for the difficult negotiations ahead. (that is if there is anybody on the other side seriously interested in negotiating.) One more comment - lobbying is a good thing. It has an unfair reputation in this country. It's how people make sure that politicians are listening to them and Jews learned after nobody paid attention in World War II that they had better know how to speak for themself. Arab American organizations such as the Arab Anti Discrimination League have been catching on in recent years and are doing their own share of lobbying. As the Arab American population grows and their fundraising ability increases, the lobbying will equal out a bit. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Jeff, a question Author: Gary [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 02:48:17 08/04/01 Sat Why bother? He makes asinine claim after asinine claim, all of which you counter with reason and actual fact, and yet he doesn't even concede an inch or at least acknowledge your point. Punch out, Maverick! But then again, perhaps it's best that he feels someone is listening. You may very well be the only thing standing between him and a Ryder truck.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sometimes, I wonder too Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:28:01 08/06/01 Mon Gary, I've been considering the possibility of six canned answers. This works on a musical board I post on with people who always miss the same points. You pull them out and cut and paste them every time the same nonesense is repeated - as for example when Mark suggests that his support of the Palestinians got him banned or that it was necessary to check email addresses to figure out Alice was Mark. I know I'm banging my head against a closed wall, but it's been hard to help myself, ever since once on DP when nobody responded to him and he concluded that this meant everybody agreed with him.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Right, right Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:51:37 08/06/01 Mon You're right Jeff, Israel is always right, all Palestinians are terrorists so they must be shot in self defense when they throw stones. Starting with the 12 year olds, because Palestinian 12 year olds are inferior to Ana Frank. Don't worry, I am the exception. The jurry made up of good American citizens, all sworn on the Bible which commandment's they claim to obey will find the defendant, Israel, not guilty. More so, they will supply the guns, the amo to shoot the little bastards, they will disallow any public display of emotion on part of Palestinians, and will provide the cash, the buldozers to create new settlements for the Russian Jews who will take over the territory. Like many Israelis I talked to told me, the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank should go to Jordan. Or to Egipt. They don't give a damn. And they don't give a damn about international laws either, except when it comes to confiscated Jewish wealth in Europe. Don't worry about the international laws. As long as the US is the judge and the jurry of international law, no Jewish leader would face the fate of Milosevich. Oh, I forgot Arafat. Thousands of Palestinians risk their lives throwing rocks at Israeli tanks because Arafat tells them so. He is the bad guy. Just kill Arafat and everything will be fine. You know what I think? I think Arafat is alive only because he is the convinient "partner" in negociations. If he was the only obstcle to peace he would be dead long time ago. You and I know what the obstacle to peace is. The obstacle to peace is the dream of a great Israel, home to all Jews in Russian and East Europe, and the only place for that is Palestine. Until that home has been found, Israel doesn't want peace, and the Palestinians simply cannot afford one. They have seen the fate of the North American Native and the fate of those in Shatilla and Chabra and they know they cannot afford this peace.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Still misquoting Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:22:17 08/07/01 Tue It's not just Arafat. Arafat is a coward afraid to take bold action because of the assasinations of Sadat and Rabin. In a way, I can't blame him. The problem is that there is almost nobody in the Palestinian leadership interested in actual peace and few leaders in the Arab countries. The Palestinian problem is just a larger part of the whole problem. "Israel is always right." Don't play dumb, Mark. You know very well I didn't say any such thing. There are many things Israel is wrong about from the arrest without trial of suspected terrorists to the destruction of houses of families of those arrested to the use of torture at times to exact confessions. A great many things on Israels side need to be changed. "All Palestinians are terrorists" No but the media and schools in the Palestinian territories do their best to try and make all Palestinians terrorists. "You and I know what the obstacle to peace is." I do. You don't seem to. The major obstacle to peace is that Israel doesn't have a partner that is seriously interested and willing to negotiate to get peace. Have you forgotten Barak's generous offer at Camp David so fast? We found out then that the leadership on the other side wasn't ready to truly talk about peace. Your hero Bill Clinton is in large part responsible for the present situation by trying to force a peace treaty when the Palestinians weren't interested. He also broke his word to Arafat. Clinton promised if the talks weren't successful, he wouldn't blame Arafat and then he did just that. For once, I was sympathetic to Arafat. Bush doesn't help either by doing nothing and leaving it to the sides to solve their own problems. When there is no trust, you need an intermediary and we should stop sitting on the sidelines doing nothing and insist the sides keep talking.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Partner for Peace? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:20:38 08/07/01 Tue Israel seem to try to make peace with the wrong guy. It is not Arafat Israel should make peace with. It's the Palestinian nation. Those in the occupied territories, those in Israel, those in Jordan, Lebanon, Siria, Saudi Arabia, the US and worldwide. And that means Intenational law, the one Israel likes only when it comes to reparations owed to Jews, not when it comes to reparations owed by Jews. I realize that many of the East European Jews are not going back to Russia, Poland, Hungary or Romania. But Palestinians who's land has been confiscated are owed reparations under International Law. Arafat has a house in the West Bank or Gaza, I'm not sure where, but million others have lost theirs. Israel owes them reparations, so their 12 year olds have enough hope to chose other things than throwing rocks at tanks. I didn't see that offer. I don't see why Clinton, America or I should have anything to do with all this. I am not arguing with you hoping to change your views. I hope enough people may hear the alternative story that a different pressure would be brought to the US government. I think the alliance the US has with Israel is a sham, where US has nothing to gain. I would hope that we would withdraw all support to ALL sides of this conflict - Israel, Palestine, Egipt, Jordan and all others and let them kill each other with rocks if they want to. I believe Israel is bent on conquest by force and on ethnic clensing, with no respect for International Law, and no desire to be part of an international community and I do not want their blood on my hands as an American citizen. Just because Jewish groups in the US lobby hard and bribe greedy politicians, we, American citizens have no right to use our power to rob a nation, Palestine, of it's future and it's way of life. More so, it is sad that most Americans are dennied the truth about the Middle East and are fed a constant bombardment of historic and political junk that sooner or later will give them indigestion. Americans wonder why they are targets of Palestinian terrorism, without being told the terror our military and financial aid has brought upon the Palestinians. I wish we would stop the aid and I am convinced that when the casualties would be balanced, the combatants will make peace. Why make peace when you are winning at war?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Partner for Peace? Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:19:22 08/07/01 Tue You can only make peace with the leadership of a nation negotiating with the leadership of another nation, unless you seriously know a way you can negotiate with a whole people. Arafat and the rest of the Palestinian leadership are what we have available to negotiate with. The fact is Israel has continuously shown that it wants peace at almost any price. Let's not forget that the peace treaty with Egypt gave them back virtually all captured land in exchange for nothing but a promise of peace. The peace with Egypt has been cold, but it has been peace and it was worth giving back every inch of land to have safety and security. As for a different kind of pressure being brought on the US government, don't forget that I work a block away from the White House and the demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians since the situation started have been increasing in both volume and number. Obviously, the Palestinians and their sympathizers have the same rights to make their views known as Jews and they have the same right to lobby. "Why make peace when you are winning at war?" For one reason, becuase the demographics are not on Isreals side. Even accounting for the Russian Jews, Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel if she keeps all of the occupied territories. For another, constant war and adminsitration of the territories are economically draining. Israel's inflation is still incredibly high and a lot of this is from the constant need for a war economy. There's also a lot to gain in relations with Europe by making the West Bank an independant political nation, but as Golda Meir said years ago "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Where is the Sadat on the Palestinian side who understands that they can win only through negotiations? Egypt never got back any territory by fighting with a militarily stronger Israel but got back almost all of Egyptian territory after serious negotiations. There's a lesson for the Palestinians here.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Asinine c laim????!!! Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:37:31 08/06/01 Mon Asinine claim? Hundreds of stone throwing Palestinian children have been shot dead this year. Is that asinine claim? They want to grow in the country of their fathers as free and equal men under the law. Is that asinine? Milions of Palestinians have had their lands and homes confiscated. Many live in the occuppied territories, many in refugee camps. International law requires that land can be annexed, in which case citizenship and rights should be given to the subjects, or returned. Israel is displaicing the natives to bring millions of East European Jews as colonists, much like the US displaced the native Americans (maybe that's why the sympathy Americans have for this ethnic cleansing). Just as a Native American was seen good only when dead, a Palestinian is a terrorist suspect from birth. I think you must be making a mockery of Bible, truth and right and wrong by calling my post asinine. What are your facts?