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Subject: Jeff, a question Author: Gary [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 02:48:17 08/04/01 Sat In reply to: JeffF 's message, "Stop putting words in my mouth" on 07:37:35 08/03/01 Fri Why bother? He makes asinine claim after asinine claim, all of which you counter with reason and actual fact, and yet he doesn't even concede an inch or at least acknowledge your point. Punch out, Maverick! But then again, perhaps it's best that he feels someone is listening. You may very well be the only thing standing between him and a Ryder truck. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sometimes, I wonder too Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:28:01 08/06/01 Mon Gary, I've been considering the possibility of six canned answers. This works on a musical board I post on with people who always miss the same points. You pull them out and cut and paste them every time the same nonesense is repeated - as for example when Mark suggests that his support of the Palestinians got him banned or that it was necessary to check email addresses to figure out Alice was Mark. I know I'm banging my head against a closed wall, but it's been hard to help myself, ever since once on DP when nobody responded to him and he concluded that this meant everybody agreed with him.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Right, right Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:51:37 08/06/01 Mon You're right Jeff, Israel is always right, all Palestinians are terrorists so they must be shot in self defense when they throw stones. Starting with the 12 year olds, because Palestinian 12 year olds are inferior to Ana Frank. Don't worry, I am the exception. The jurry made up of good American citizens, all sworn on the Bible which commandment's they claim to obey will find the defendant, Israel, not guilty. More so, they will supply the guns, the amo to shoot the little bastards, they will disallow any public display of emotion on part of Palestinians, and will provide the cash, the buldozers to create new settlements for the Russian Jews who will take over the territory. Like many Israelis I talked to told me, the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank should go to Jordan. Or to Egipt. They don't give a damn. And they don't give a damn about international laws either, except when it comes to confiscated Jewish wealth in Europe. Don't worry about the international laws. As long as the US is the judge and the jurry of international law, no Jewish leader would face the fate of Milosevich. Oh, I forgot Arafat. Thousands of Palestinians risk their lives throwing rocks at Israeli tanks because Arafat tells them so. He is the bad guy. Just kill Arafat and everything will be fine. You know what I think? I think Arafat is alive only because he is the convinient "partner" in negociations. If he was the only obstcle to peace he would be dead long time ago. You and I know what the obstacle to peace is. The obstacle to peace is the dream of a great Israel, home to all Jews in Russian and East Europe, and the only place for that is Palestine. Until that home has been found, Israel doesn't want peace, and the Palestinians simply cannot afford one. They have seen the fate of the North American Native and the fate of those in Shatilla and Chabra and they know they cannot afford this peace.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Still misquoting Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:22:17 08/07/01 Tue It's not just Arafat. Arafat is a coward afraid to take bold action because of the assasinations of Sadat and Rabin. In a way, I can't blame him. The problem is that there is almost nobody in the Palestinian leadership interested in actual peace and few leaders in the Arab countries. The Palestinian problem is just a larger part of the whole problem. "Israel is always right." Don't play dumb, Mark. You know very well I didn't say any such thing. There are many things Israel is wrong about from the arrest without trial of suspected terrorists to the destruction of houses of families of those arrested to the use of torture at times to exact confessions. A great many things on Israels side need to be changed. "All Palestinians are terrorists" No but the media and schools in the Palestinian territories do their best to try and make all Palestinians terrorists. "You and I know what the obstacle to peace is." I do. You don't seem to. The major obstacle to peace is that Israel doesn't have a partner that is seriously interested and willing to negotiate to get peace. Have you forgotten Barak's generous offer at Camp David so fast? We found out then that the leadership on the other side wasn't ready to truly talk about peace. Your hero Bill Clinton is in large part responsible for the present situation by trying to force a peace treaty when the Palestinians weren't interested. He also broke his word to Arafat. Clinton promised if the talks weren't successful, he wouldn't blame Arafat and then he did just that. For once, I was sympathetic to Arafat. Bush doesn't help either by doing nothing and leaving it to the sides to solve their own problems. When there is no trust, you need an intermediary and we should stop sitting on the sidelines doing nothing and insist the sides keep talking.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Partner for Peace? Author: Mark7 [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:20:38 08/07/01 Tue Israel seem to try to make peace with the wrong guy. It is not Arafat Israel should make peace with. It's the Palestinian nation. Those in the occupied territories, those in Israel, those in Jordan, Lebanon, Siria, Saudi Arabia, the US and worldwide. And that means Intenational law, the one Israel likes only when it comes to reparations owed to Jews, not when it comes to reparations owed by Jews. I realize that many of the East European Jews are not going back to Russia, Poland, Hungary or Romania. But Palestinians who's land has been confiscated are owed reparations under International Law. Arafat has a house in the West Bank or Gaza, I'm not sure where, but million others have lost theirs. Israel owes them reparations, so their 12 year olds have enough hope to chose other things than throwing rocks at tanks. I didn't see that offer. I don't see why Clinton, America or I should have anything to do with all this. I am not arguing with you hoping to change your views. I hope enough people may hear the alternative story that a different pressure would be brought to the US government. I think the alliance the US has with Israel is a sham, where US has nothing to gain. I would hope that we would withdraw all support to ALL sides of this conflict - Israel, Palestine, Egipt, Jordan and all others and let them kill each other with rocks if they want to. I believe Israel is bent on conquest by force and on ethnic clensing, with no respect for International Law, and no desire to be part of an international community and I do not want their blood on my hands as an American citizen. Just because Jewish groups in the US lobby hard and bribe greedy politicians, we, American citizens have no right to use our power to rob a nation, Palestine, of it's future and it's way of life. More so, it is sad that most Americans are dennied the truth about the Middle East and are fed a constant bombardment of historic and political junk that sooner or later will give them indigestion. Americans wonder why they are targets of Palestinian terrorism, without being told the terror our military and financial aid has brought upon the Palestinians. I wish we would stop the aid and I am convinced that when the casualties would be balanced, the combatants will make peace. Why make peace when you are winning at war?

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Partner for Peace? Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:19:22 08/07/01 Tue You can only make peace with the leadership of a nation negotiating with the leadership of another nation, unless you seriously know a way you can negotiate with a whole people. Arafat and the rest of the Palestinian leadership are what we have available to negotiate with. The fact is Israel has continuously shown that it wants peace at almost any price. Let's not forget that the peace treaty with Egypt gave them back virtually all captured land in exchange for nothing but a promise of peace. The peace with Egypt has been cold, but it has been peace and it was worth giving back every inch of land to have safety and security. As for a different kind of pressure being brought on the US government, don't forget that I work a block away from the White House and the demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians since the situation started have been increasing in both volume and number. Obviously, the Palestinians and their sympathizers have the same rights to make their views known as Jews and they have the same right to lobby. "Why make peace when you are winning at war?" For one reason, becuase the demographics are not on Isreals side. Even accounting for the Russian Jews, Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel if she keeps all of the occupied territories. For another, constant war and adminsitration of the territories are economically draining. Israel's inflation is still incredibly high and a lot of this is from the constant need for a war economy. There's also a lot to gain in relations with Europe by making the West Bank an independant political nation, but as Golda Meir said years ago "The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity." Where is the Sadat on the Palestinian side who understands that they can win only through negotiations? Egypt never got back any territory by fighting with a militarily stronger Israel but got back almost all of Egyptian territory after serious negotiations. There's a lesson for the Palestinians here.