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Subject: I agree, but Author: JeffF [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 08:58:52 07/08/01 Sun In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Jeff and Clint - points" on 22:45:29 07/06/01 Fri The valor of the Russian fighters cannot be denied. However, let's not forget that Stalin started out as an ally of Hitlers and would have remained so, if Hitler hadn't ordered the attack on Russia. Let's not forget that Stalin was part of a brutal attack and many murders of innocents in Poland which he and the Nazis originally partitioned. Nevertheless, you are right that the stand at Stalingrad was the turning point in the European war. Although if Britain had been lost during the bombing of London, the whole war would probably have been lost anyway. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Not an ally of Hitler Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:09:23 07/08/01 Sun The Soviets were shrewed. They were negotiating with the Brits and the French at the same time that Hitler was approaching them. In my reading of the book by SHirer, it wasn't that the Soviets were "friends" of the Nazis, certainly not in the way that Musolini was, but shrewdly used that relationship to preserve their own power. I hope this post appears under the right reply, don't quite have this reply process completely figured out! :-)

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sorry, makes no difference Author: JeffF [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:41:17 07/08/01 Sun The fact remains that the Soviets worked out the nonaggression pact with the Nazis that let them invade and partition and destroy other countries such as Poland(a trick the Soviets would constantly repeat). The fact also remains that Stalin would not have betrayed the pact, the way Hitler did. In fact, he was genuinely startled when Hitler invaded. As for Italy, Mussolini came to regret his alliance, and even knowing that it would probably mean his own death was actively cheering each allied victory against Hitler by mid 1943 when the Nazis had de facto control over his country. As far as putting replies in the right place over here, that is close to impossible. I've never mastered that trick. :-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: well it doesn't change the facts Author: Forest [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:16:37 07/08/01 Sun of what happened in Poland., certainly. But I guess I took your statement as implying that Stalin and Hitler had a certain affinity for eachother, which I don't think was the case at all. Mussolini's regrets came way too late, he was like a dog, happy and easily impressed (fooled) by Hitler.