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Subject: Jeff and Clint - points


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 22:45:29 07/06/01 Fri
In reply to: JeffF 's message, "Yes" on 11:00:28 07/06/01 Fri
 From your thread on IS:

Jeff

1 Good point .about the US and Jews. I hear that so often about WW2 it's nauseating.

The US did not enter WW2 to save Jews from Hitler. It did, because the US was attacked by Japan, Hitler's ally. Thank God somebody reads history.

Second, until recently, the US was about as antisemitic as the average European country, so going to war for a Jewish cause in 1940 was absurd for any American politician.

Clint, while it is true that Europe in all probability would have lost the war, America in all probability would have lost a war with Hitler without it's European allies.

Jeff and Clint, while I agree that the British RAF did it's share, you guys have forgotten the people who did most of the fighting and the winning against the Germans.

While Americans did most of the fighting against Japan, it was the RUSSIANS who did most of the fighting against the Germans.

Actually, about 30 million or so Russians fought against Hitler, and more than 20 million died. Clint, if history is too hard, try the movie Stalingrad. The story is real.

The worst American casualties incured in the Ardens and in Holland (a bridge too far) where they fought German Pantzer divisions recuperating from a good Russian beating.
'
You should immagine how those divisions fared BEFORE the Russians did their thing on them.

America did help Russia, and only red stupid commies would denny it. In fact most of Russian ammunition was made in the US (at the time, the two armies used the same caliber ammunition for their rifles). Stalin was srewed enough to put the Americans manufacture the ammo, while he built the tanks (some of the best in the world, Stalin heavy tank and the T34s and T37s best medium tanks)

At the end of the war, Stalin was left with an intact armament industry and time to build ammunition factories...


But in spite of cold War and the downturn of Russia, to denny it's role in beating Hitler, is to denny 20 century history.

For every German division Americans faced, Russians faces 7 or 8 German divisions.

If I remember correctly, about the same number of German troops facing in Fance were distroyed in Serbia, by Tito's partizans. 1 million German troops, fighting a Vietnam style war in the mountins of Serbia.

I don't try to put down the role America played in WW2. But I don't think that innacurate history does America a disfavor. America did enough in WW2 that it doesn't need distorting facts.

But the most important thing I wanted to say is this. If the Russians would have collapsed, America would have faced some 8 or 10 million Germans in France, not 500,000.

Those Germans would have had the most advanced tanks (The Sherman tank was a piece of s$it compared with any German or Russian tank of the time), the most advanced jets, and the best trained army, and probably about 10 million less quality German "allied" troops from other European countries.

I'm not sure what the outcome would have been, and I sure am happy it was Russians who did the dying, not the Americans.


Also, Clint - aside from the 9 million or such immigrants who don't "appreciate" being here, there are many who America benefits from.

Most of the immigrants I know (including myself) came here with more than college education, advanced degrees and even PHDs, in areas where the American economy wants employees.

We all pay taxes, and as far as I know, the US government did not spend money with my education, immunization, and many amenities cildren get.

My being in the US is a net financial benefit to the US government and the US economy so far.

I know lots of people like myself. Come and see California and visit any company here. I am the rule, not the exception.

I am grateful for being an American, and happy to live here. I wish to share my prosperity with the natives (unlike the good Mayflower immigrants who killed the natives).

But I be damn if I don't get sick and tired of redneck idiots telling me I should do 7 prayers a day thanking my good fortune, and washing the feet of 7 Americans in order to be liked by rednecks.

And I be damn if I will do as some immigrants do, became more redneck than the rednecks themselves, worship David Coresh, and preach Guns and Antisex Conservatism so the Good old boys would like me.

I did change a lot, and I am more American than I used to be. I like the changes (most of them) that America had on me.

But I am prowd of my origin, and I am proud of being who I am, and I will bring a piece of what I think is good in my old culture with me and You Clint will have to live with it.

America would need to change a bit because of me.

You're lucky I won't do what early immigrants did... get rid of natives.
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Replies:
[> [> [> Subject: very good points


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 07:12:52 07/07/01 Sat
there is a lot of silence on the Western European and American side with regard to the important role that Russia played in bringing down Hitler.

In fact, one could say "thank god that Hitler attacked the Russians" that's what finally got the resistance going, after the reclamation of the demilitarized zone, the siezure of Austria, the tragic giveaway of Czecoslovakia, the armed seizure of Poland. . .

I would also say the same thing: "I am prowd of my origin, and I am proud of being who I am, and I will bring a piece of what I think is good in my old culture with me and You Clint will have to live with it."

my grandparents were the immigrants. Thank goodness they came before Hitler's rise!
[> [> [> [> Subject: Forest7 and Mark7


Author:
Clint1
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 11:19:54 07/07/01 Sat
Painful as the present time may be, we will one day see the reason for it.
We can see that it was not testing, but a preparation for the life work
which we are to do. We can have faith that our prayers and aspirations will
some day be answered. Answered in a way that perhaps seems painful
to us, but is the only right way. Selfishness and pride often make us
want things that are not good for us. They need to be burned out of our
natures. We can be rid of the blocks, which are holding us back, before we
can expect our prayers to be answered.

Maybe if both of you adhere to these words of Wisdom, it could benefit you in everyday life. When you turn loose of the past and present yourself as good honest citizens, then maybe your life will be prosperous..
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Huh?


Author:
Forest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 11:38:17 07/07/01 Sat
don't pull a Mitch on me Clint. What the devil are you talking about? ARe you saying that I'm NOT a good honest citizen? and what's with all the spiritual advice? If that's a quote of someone else's you should provide attribution!
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: If only I was born in the right place?


Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 22:52:37 07/07/01 Sat
If only I was born in the right place, the US, I would have no need of improvement?

Ha, Clint, you make me roar with laughter.

What do you say? Americans (whomever they may be) have a special moral gene? One that makes them holders of the truth?
[> [> [> [> Subject: Russian Men and American Women


Author:
Mark7
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 22:47:49 07/07/01 Sat
If you want to single out who did win WW2 against Hitler at least, it was the Russian men who did most of the fighting, and American Women who built most of the war material used by all allied forces in Europe.

If any of the battles won by American troops would have been lost, the war would still have been won by America and Russia in the long run. It would have been costly and painful, but Ardens, or Sicily or Normandie had no effect on the outcome of the war, other than make it shorter.

But if Stalingrad or Kursk would have been lost, or if the Germans would have captured Odessa the oil fields in the Caspian basin, the outcome of the war would have been different.

Hitler would have had all the oil from Russia to fly his jets and shoot down F17s. And the Sherman tanks were a poor match for the Pantzers.

But the Russians did keep the oil fields from Hitler, and American women kept the war supplies flooding allied troops into victory.

Anybody else thinks this way?
[> [> [> [> Subject: one other story we hear little of


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 14:06:19 07/08/01 Sun
one other story we hear little of is that of the suffering of the German people under Hitler. Those that were hauled off to Dachau and the other concentration camps, whose property was confiscated by the Nazis, and so on. I mentioned elsewhere the young women forced to be members of Nazi youth camps who were undoubtedly raped then told it was good to bear children for the Reich.

No doubt it was not the same number as the targeted Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, handicapped and homosexuals, but still significant and a story to be told if we really want to understand Hitler, the Nazis and how such a thing as the holocaust could happen.

[> [> [> Subject: I agree, but


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 08:58:52 07/08/01 Sun
The valor of the Russian fighters cannot be denied. However, let's not forget that Stalin started out as an ally of Hitlers and would have remained so, if Hitler hadn't ordered the attack on Russia. Let's not forget that Stalin was part of a brutal attack and many murders of innocents in Poland which he and the Nazis originally partitioned.
Nevertheless, you are right that the stand at Stalingrad was the turning point in the European war. Although if Britain had been lost during the bombing of London, the whole war would probably have been lost anyway.
[> [> [> [> Subject: Not an ally of Hitler


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 14:09:23 07/08/01 Sun
The Soviets were shrewed. They were negotiating with the Brits and the French at the same time that Hitler was approaching them. In my reading of the book by SHirer, it wasn't that the Soviets were "friends" of the Nazis, certainly not in the way that Musolini was, but shrewdly used that relationship to preserve their own power.


I hope this post appears under the right reply, don't quite have this reply process completely figured out!
:-)
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sorry, makes no difference


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 14:41:17 07/08/01 Sun
The fact remains that the Soviets worked out the nonaggression pact with the Nazis that let them invade and partition and destroy other countries such as Poland(a trick the Soviets would constantly repeat). The fact also remains that Stalin would not have betrayed the pact, the way Hitler did. In fact, he was genuinely startled when Hitler invaded.
As for Italy, Mussolini came to regret his alliance, and even knowing that it would probably mean his own death was actively cheering each allied victory against Hitler by mid 1943 when the Nazis had de facto control over his country.
As far as putting replies in the right place over here, that is close to impossible. I've never mastered that trick. :-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: well it doesn't change the facts


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 15:16:37 07/08/01 Sun
of what happened in Poland., certainly. But I guess I took your statement as implying that Stalin and Hitler had a certain affinity for eachother, which I don't think was the case at all.

Mussolini's regrets came way too late, he was like a dog, happy and easily impressed (fooled) by Hitler.
[> [> [> [> Subject: let me correct


Author:
Forest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 14:11:29 07/08/01 Sun
What I mean to say is that in no way did Stalin "start out" as an ally of Hitler's. The Russians were trying to deal with the western powers and were rebuffed at the same time that Hitler and his men were trying to build an alliance with the Sovs.
[> [> [> Subject: The US


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:20:03 07/08/01 Sun
You know, it's a historical fact that after Pearl Harbor, Germany declared war on the US. Roosevelt did not have the votes to get a declaration of war against Hitler. The vote to delcare war against Germany and Italy only came after those countries declared war on the US.
Yes, anti-semitism was very high in the US. Remember, that some leading Americans were anti-semitic and pro-Hitler before 1941(Father Coughlin, Lindbergh, Henry Ford).
[> [> [> Subject: I think Canadians know more about US history than US themselves!!


Author:
Melody
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 20:50:44 07/09/01 Mon
US retaliation against Pearl Harbor equalled Hiroshima..
They nor we, went there to save Jews...Jews were not the only persecuted group.....What was done to Hiroshima is/was also horrific...

But there is no other more despised name than Hitler...He has rivalled Satan and won..
What a legacy huh? Can you just imagine being so grotesquly non-human and evil, that you are a history book wonder and hated more that Lucifer himself?

God!! Bet his folks were proud..
My ex bosses, one is Asutrian and one German descent, also hate Hitler.he was kicked out of Austria before the was since they knew of his psychotic tendencies...Twas likely between WW1 and WW 11
[> [> [> [> Subject: Not so fast


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 06:33:42 07/10/01 Tue
There's a reason Canadians know something about WWII. Canadian troops were an important part of the war effort.
However, a lot of your post is not quite right.

"US retaliation against Pearl Harbor equalled Hiroshima"
False. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was dropped to speed the ending of the war because the Japanese were not going to surrender unconditionally. Remember they fought fanatically and even after the bombing of Tokyo, Japanese fighting was fierce. If the US made a mistake that led to the atom bomb, it was FDR's insistence on unconditional surrender, knowing that Japan would never easily surrender without a guarantee that the emporer could stay in power and that many of the Japanese leaders considered surrender more dishonorable than death.
But in no sense was the bombing revenge for Pearl Harbor. It was Truman's decision that it would save a lot of American lives to bomb Hiroshima(and Nagasaki, which for some reason is often forgotten) and speed the ending of the war. That was the first reason. The second was that the Russians had by that time declared war against Japan and to stop Russia from gaining any control in Japan.

"Jews were not the only persecuted group"
True. Gypsies, Czechs, Poles, Homosexuals, Socialists, later Russians, Slavs were all persecuted by Nazis. The first group persecuted was the retarded. If the world had spoken up against the sterilization and experiments and then genocide against the retarded, what happened to the Jews might have been different(Hard though when the US was also sterilizing retarded people then). Also, if the world had been more willing to take Jews in, history would have been different. In the early years, Hitler was letting Jews leave, but he wasn't finding a lot of countries willing to take them. A little discussed story is the herosim of the little Dominican Republic which took in a lot of Jews in the early years, when other countries wouldn't. The Dominican Republic saved a lot of people who would have died otherwise.

Let's also not forget that Japanese atrocities were also high. The Rape of Nanking in China was one of the most brutal episodes in modern history. We know about Korean teenagers forced by the Japanese into prostititution and we know of Japanese executions and experiments on prisoners.

"But there is no other more despised than Hitler"
Good reason for that. But let's not forget that one man can't do it alone. Nazis were more than one man and some of the puppet governments and leaders of other countries that Hitler took over were also just as bad. Some of the men Hitler was surrounded with(Martin Borman, Heydrich) were even worse than he was.

"God!! Bet his folks were proud"
A miserable childhood. Not close to folks. Beaten.
Not an excuse those. A lot of other people in similar circumstances didn't grow up to be Hitler.

And no surprise of you knew Germans and Austrians who hated Hitler. They had as good reason as anybody.

One problem was a lot of people didn't believe Hitler meant what he said. Mein Kampf spelled out his hate and prejudices. His campaign slogans talked of ridding the country of Jews, but a number of people thought he was just a politician taking extreme positions to get elected who would modify them later. Also, Churchill stood alone in the early years in warning people. No support in Britain or elsewhere for his warnings.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Mein Kampf


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 07:55:31 07/10/01 Tue
The interesting thing about Mein Kampf, is that it really did contain all the beliefs and policies of Hitler that he later put into practice. The sad thing is while millions of copies (a huge number at least) were sold, very few people actually read it.

Melody if you're interested in learning more about Hitler and the third Reich, I highly recomend the book: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Mr. Shirer. He was an american foreign correspondent stationed in Germany but he was also present throughout the Nuremburg trials and he also draws heavily from all the captured Nazi documents in providing his historical accounting. I think he does provide an objective analysis of the events of those times. Objective in the sense that he does not identify with any particular party of interest, victims, aggressors, etc.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Mein Kampf


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 08:17:06 07/10/01 Tue
The really scary thing are some of the pro-Nazi sites that still exist on the Net, especially the semi-intellectual ones where you can cloak your prejudices in fancy talk. A lot of holocaust denial still going on, coupled with a blaming the victim.

As far as books, Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" gives you a glimpse from the point of view of one of the major accomplices of Hitler. Speer was not anti-semitic as much as he was an opportunist. He has left us the best account from an insider of what Hitler and his cronies were like.

Also, "Between Hitler and Mussolini" gives the whole story of that relationship from it's fragile beginnings to the semi friendship to Mussolini's betrayal of France to his attempt to save Jews to his hatred of Hitler. It's fascinating reading.

Above all, as always, I have to recommend "The Rescuers" - the book about the people from all countries who saved people at their own great peril. We have to remember that as dark as those days were, every country also had a number of ordinary people who were quite heroic.

As for Mein Kampf, even many of the people who did read it, didn't think he actually meant it. It was dismissed alternately as political propoganda or just the ravings of a lunatic who could never be elected anyway.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: other books


Author:
Forest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 08:21:59 07/10/01 Tue
Ok I've written those titles down. Another one I was told about was "Wine and War" or "war and Wine" (cant remember) that one is about the Nazi occupation of france.

Have you read the Shirer book? If not Jeff, you really should read it. I'm bogged down right around the invasion of Poland and have picked up McNamara's book on Viet Nam, for a change of pace!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: other books


Author:
JeffF
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 09:09:01 07/10/01 Tue
I read Shirer's book back in the seventies, so it's been a while, but some of it still sticks with me in detail.

There is also some very good realistic fiction. If you want a very good, fair look at the war, try, Marge Piercy's novel, "Gone to Soldiers." It's one of the best novels I've ever read(Piercy's book, "The Longings of Women" is also very good, but nothing to do with WWII).
[> [> [> [> Subject: well its not US history


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 07:50:38 07/10/01 Tue
that's the only topic. It's German History, or European History.

I don't think it's accurate to say Hitler was kicked out of Austria. He was of German descent living in Austro-Hungary. Actually born and living in an area between the Danube and Moravia and Bohemia -- I think that was an area that the Hungarians at a much earlier time had encouraged ethnic Germans to settle in, so that it would be populated and make it easier to control the territory. It was by the age of 16 that Hitler became a fervent German nationalist, under the influence of one of his highschool teachers in Austro-Hungary. This was the only teacher to praise Mein Kampf.
Hitler lived in Vienna in his early years, lived on the street actually because he would not get regular work only piddled about aspiring to be an artist or architect. As a fervent german nationalist, he joined the German army and fought in WW1. He relied on his military training to catapult his new National Socialist Party into being.

Speaking of U.S. vs. German history. Did you know that the U.S. has a memorial to the victims of the holocaust in the nation's capitol? I wonder how the U.S. would feel if the German's put a memorial up for the victims of U.S. slavery on their government grounds in Berlin?
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: I guess, tecniqually.It is world history


Author:
Melody
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Date Posted: 14:33:15 07/10/01 Tue
Since so much of the world was affected and or dragged into war...

A little mess from our history...
Hey....Watch Thirteen Days...It was/is an awesome movie/account of Russian/US standoff at Cuba in 62..No wonder Kennedy was a hero.He id all the right things...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: world history


Author:
Forest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 15:51:50 07/10/01 Tue
and I'm not disagreeing with you. We USA'ers are a pretty ignorant lot -- the downside of being a superpower.

(Hey I thought Canadians were Americans too?)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Never!


Author:
Melody
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 22:27:57 07/10/01 Tue
My husband says the same damned thing..Canada will be part of NewYork very soon...F*ck that!!!
Don't get me wrong..I like the States..LOVE to visit...Even love my Yank relatives (my father is American born) but I am damned proud to be Canadian..We ain't big flag wavers, but most of us are pretty proud of who we are...
Canada is a North American country..But in no way are we yankee...LOL
We are, for most part, a tamer lot..passive/aggressive as opposed to aggressive..Lots of bark with tiny bites...
Lots of maple trees too...And land and lakes...
Come visit one day:-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Never!


Author:
Forest
[ Edit | View ]
Date Posted: 05:40:38 07/11/01 Wed
We actually had a totally awesome honeymoon in Canada, started at Mt. Robeson and Jasper and headed south from there! I liked lake louise better than Banf, and Yoho National Park was really cool too. Hiked past the site of the Burgess Shale fossil find!

The larches and the aspens were a beautiful golden color, and we avoided the bears!

I didn't want to imply Canadians were Yankees, but I have heard Canadians say: We're Americans too, we live in N. America, why do yankees think they can claim that name for themselves!!!!!
I hope Canada never becomes part of New York! what a scary thought.

Did some great ski trips in Canada, including Blanket Glacier Hut (had to be helicoptered in and spent a week in there -- awesome snow, great stars at night) and rock climbing at Squamish, B.C.
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