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Subject: I think Canadians know more about US history than US themselves!!


Author:
Melody
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Date Posted: 20:50:44 07/09/01 Mon
In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Jeff and Clint - points" on 22:45:29 07/06/01 Fri

US retaliation against Pearl Harbor equalled Hiroshima..
They nor we, went there to save Jews...Jews were not the only persecuted group.....What was done to Hiroshima is/was also horrific...

But there is no other more despised name than Hitler...He has rivalled Satan and won..
What a legacy huh? Can you just imagine being so grotesquly non-human and evil, that you are a history book wonder and hated more that Lucifer himself?

God!! Bet his folks were proud..
My ex bosses, one is Asutrian and one German descent, also hate Hitler.he was kicked out of Austria before the was since they knew of his psychotic tendencies...Twas likely between WW1 and WW 11

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Replies:
[> [> [> [> Subject: Not so fast


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 06:33:42 07/10/01 Tue

There's a reason Canadians know something about WWII. Canadian troops were an important part of the war effort.
However, a lot of your post is not quite right.

"US retaliation against Pearl Harbor equalled Hiroshima"
False. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was dropped to speed the ending of the war because the Japanese were not going to surrender unconditionally. Remember they fought fanatically and even after the bombing of Tokyo, Japanese fighting was fierce. If the US made a mistake that led to the atom bomb, it was FDR's insistence on unconditional surrender, knowing that Japan would never easily surrender without a guarantee that the emporer could stay in power and that many of the Japanese leaders considered surrender more dishonorable than death.
But in no sense was the bombing revenge for Pearl Harbor. It was Truman's decision that it would save a lot of American lives to bomb Hiroshima(and Nagasaki, which for some reason is often forgotten) and speed the ending of the war. That was the first reason. The second was that the Russians had by that time declared war against Japan and to stop Russia from gaining any control in Japan.

"Jews were not the only persecuted group"
True. Gypsies, Czechs, Poles, Homosexuals, Socialists, later Russians, Slavs were all persecuted by Nazis. The first group persecuted was the retarded. If the world had spoken up against the sterilization and experiments and then genocide against the retarded, what happened to the Jews might have been different(Hard though when the US was also sterilizing retarded people then). Also, if the world had been more willing to take Jews in, history would have been different. In the early years, Hitler was letting Jews leave, but he wasn't finding a lot of countries willing to take them. A little discussed story is the herosim of the little Dominican Republic which took in a lot of Jews in the early years, when other countries wouldn't. The Dominican Republic saved a lot of people who would have died otherwise.

Let's also not forget that Japanese atrocities were also high. The Rape of Nanking in China was one of the most brutal episodes in modern history. We know about Korean teenagers forced by the Japanese into prostititution and we know of Japanese executions and experiments on prisoners.

"But there is no other more despised than Hitler"
Good reason for that. But let's not forget that one man can't do it alone. Nazis were more than one man and some of the puppet governments and leaders of other countries that Hitler took over were also just as bad. Some of the men Hitler was surrounded with(Martin Borman, Heydrich) were even worse than he was.

"God!! Bet his folks were proud"
A miserable childhood. Not close to folks. Beaten.
Not an excuse those. A lot of other people in similar circumstances didn't grow up to be Hitler.

And no surprise of you knew Germans and Austrians who hated Hitler. They had as good reason as anybody.

One problem was a lot of people didn't believe Hitler meant what he said. Mein Kampf spelled out his hate and prejudices. His campaign slogans talked of ridding the country of Jews, but a number of people thought he was just a politician taking extreme positions to get elected who would modify them later. Also, Churchill stood alone in the early years in warning people. No support in Britain or elsewhere for his warnings.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Mein Kampf


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 07:55:31 07/10/01 Tue

The interesting thing about Mein Kampf, is that it really did contain all the beliefs and policies of Hitler that he later put into practice. The sad thing is while millions of copies (a huge number at least) were sold, very few people actually read it.

Melody if you're interested in learning more about Hitler and the third Reich, I highly recomend the book: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by Mr. Shirer. He was an american foreign correspondent stationed in Germany but he was also present throughout the Nuremburg trials and he also draws heavily from all the captured Nazi documents in providing his historical accounting. I think he does provide an objective analysis of the events of those times. Objective in the sense that he does not identify with any particular party of interest, victims, aggressors, etc.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Mein Kampf


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 08:17:06 07/10/01 Tue

The really scary thing are some of the pro-Nazi sites that still exist on the Net, especially the semi-intellectual ones where you can cloak your prejudices in fancy talk. A lot of holocaust denial still going on, coupled with a blaming the victim.

As far as books, Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" gives you a glimpse from the point of view of one of the major accomplices of Hitler. Speer was not anti-semitic as much as he was an opportunist. He has left us the best account from an insider of what Hitler and his cronies were like.

Also, "Between Hitler and Mussolini" gives the whole story of that relationship from it's fragile beginnings to the semi friendship to Mussolini's betrayal of France to his attempt to save Jews to his hatred of Hitler. It's fascinating reading.

Above all, as always, I have to recommend "The Rescuers" - the book about the people from all countries who saved people at their own great peril. We have to remember that as dark as those days were, every country also had a number of ordinary people who were quite heroic.

As for Mein Kampf, even many of the people who did read it, didn't think he actually meant it. It was dismissed alternately as political propoganda or just the ravings of a lunatic who could never be elected anyway.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: other books


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 08:21:59 07/10/01 Tue

Ok I've written those titles down. Another one I was told about was "Wine and War" or "war and Wine" (cant remember) that one is about the Nazi occupation of france.

Have you read the Shirer book? If not Jeff, you really should read it. I'm bogged down right around the invasion of Poland and have picked up McNamara's book on Viet Nam, for a change of pace!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: other books


Author:
JeffF
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Date Posted: 09:09:01 07/10/01 Tue

I read Shirer's book back in the seventies, so it's been a while, but some of it still sticks with me in detail.

There is also some very good realistic fiction. If you want a very good, fair look at the war, try, Marge Piercy's novel, "Gone to Soldiers." It's one of the best novels I've ever read(Piercy's book, "The Longings of Women" is also very good, but nothing to do with WWII).


[> [> [> [> Subject: well its not US history


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 07:50:38 07/10/01 Tue

that's the only topic. It's German History, or European History.

I don't think it's accurate to say Hitler was kicked out of Austria. He was of German descent living in Austro-Hungary. Actually born and living in an area between the Danube and Moravia and Bohemia -- I think that was an area that the Hungarians at a much earlier time had encouraged ethnic Germans to settle in, so that it would be populated and make it easier to control the territory. It was by the age of 16 that Hitler became a fervent German nationalist, under the influence of one of his highschool teachers in Austro-Hungary. This was the only teacher to praise Mein Kampf.
Hitler lived in Vienna in his early years, lived on the street actually because he would not get regular work only piddled about aspiring to be an artist or architect. As a fervent german nationalist, he joined the German army and fought in WW1. He relied on his military training to catapult his new National Socialist Party into being.

Speaking of U.S. vs. German history. Did you know that the U.S. has a memorial to the victims of the holocaust in the nation's capitol? I wonder how the U.S. would feel if the German's put a memorial up for the victims of U.S. slavery on their government grounds in Berlin?
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: I guess, tecniqually.It is world history


Author:
Melody
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Date Posted: 14:33:15 07/10/01 Tue

Since so much of the world was affected and or dragged into war...

A little mess from our history...
Hey....Watch Thirteen Days...It was/is an awesome movie/account of Russian/US standoff at Cuba in 62..No wonder Kennedy was a hero.He id all the right things...
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: world history


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 15:51:50 07/10/01 Tue

and I'm not disagreeing with you. We USA'ers are a pretty ignorant lot -- the downside of being a superpower.

(Hey I thought Canadians were Americans too?)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Never!


Author:
Melody
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Date Posted: 22:27:57 07/10/01 Tue

My husband says the same damned thing..Canada will be part of NewYork very soon...F*ck that!!!
Don't get me wrong..I like the States..LOVE to visit...Even love my Yank relatives (my father is American born) but I am damned proud to be Canadian..We ain't big flag wavers, but most of us are pretty proud of who we are...
Canada is a North American country..But in no way are we yankee...LOL
We are, for most part, a tamer lot..passive/aggressive as opposed to aggressive..Lots of bark with tiny bites...
Lots of maple trees too...And land and lakes...
Come visit one day:-)
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Never!


Author:
Forest
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Date Posted: 05:40:38 07/11/01 Wed

We actually had a totally awesome honeymoon in Canada, started at Mt. Robeson and Jasper and headed south from there! I liked lake louise better than Banf, and Yoho National Park was really cool too. Hiked past the site of the Burgess Shale fossil find!

The larches and the aspens were a beautiful golden color, and we avoided the bears!

I didn't want to imply Canadians were Yankees, but I have heard Canadians say: We're Americans too, we live in N. America, why do yankees think they can claim that name for themselves!!!!!
I hope Canada never becomes part of New York! what a scary thought.

Did some great ski trips in Canada, including Blanket Glacier Hut (had to be helicoptered in and spent a week in there -- awesome snow, great stars at night) and rock climbing at Squamish, B.C.


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