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Subject:

致獨眼龍及Summer二君

Author:
公仔佬

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Date Posted: 00:12:15 04/27/03 Sun

首先，請問「難分對錯」和「不能分對錯」有沒有分別？也就是說，「那些功課很難完成」和「那些功課不能完成」有沒有分別？
「難分對錯」是我說的；「不能分對錯」是你和Summer說的，請問這是不是「偷換概念」？

我再指引你看看Summer的simple logic。
你們和其他同學最初的論題是：「支持濟濟精神等如宣揚賭博」，而不是「賭博是不道德的」。跟著展開討論，但是，正反雙方竟然是針對著不同的辯題在辯論，各有各說，請問，這樣的辯論會有結論嗎？
我見你們愈講愈躁，愈講愈離題，纔留言勸諭你們注意發言的語氣和態度，因此，我並沒有介入你們的討論。
換來的是：公仔佬不表態、不支持Summer = 支持賭博 = 和稀泥 = 缺乏道德觀念 = 不應做老師 = 枉為人師（濟記德育老師）= ？？？
你和Summer仔細想想，這樣的simple logic合不合理？

Summer之前，曾經和無數同學展開罵戰，除此之外，還有心雲（不承認自己是老師身分的）和公仔佬（自認是老師的）、老鼠鯊魚（校友）、一位家長（我相信他真的是一位家長）等，試想想：Summer的思想和言論，是不是真的已到達一個超然的境界，凌駕在眾人之上呢？

我跟心雲再三跟他說，用文字斷斷續續討論是費時及容易造成誤會的，不如約一個時間回校詳談吧，但Summer又拒絕應約，請問：我們還可以做什麼？

正如獨眼龍所言，Summer的說話很多都有道理；如Summer的說話很有道理而眾人都反對他，那麼是不是他的傳遞訊息技巧出了問題，而不是他的points呢？我建議他考慮一下這個傳意技巧的問題，但他給我的回應是冇points便是nonsense，並批評我的建議是"anti-rational"、 "anti-logic"，請問：我還可以說些什麼？

在此，我很感謝「一位家長」數天前對我的忠告，叫我不要浪費時間回應Summer。一位家長：對不起，我沒有聽你的勸告，現在真的有點「不聽老人言，吃虧在眼前」的感覺。Sorry！

Summer問：為什麼他不能在網上留言？這是他的權利。
一位家長、其他的留言者、一位中大辯論隊師兄說：大家只要不看、不回應某人的留言，便可以把問題解決了。
公仔佬問：誰說得對？誰說錯了？要怎樣做纔可以令大家心平氣和地對話呢？

最後，我很欣賞Summer和獨眼龍兩人對「絕對道德」的執著，如果你們是中五、中六或中七，均可預習、溫習或複習吳森《情與中國文化》和殷海光《人生的意義》兩課，我想你們會對「道德」、「對錯」有較深刻的體會。此外，你們也可以上網搜尋「兩難問題」、dilemma、paradox或相類的詞語，為世間上無數的面對著左右為難的問題的人，給他們一盞照耀前路的明燈，告訴他們怎樣做便是對？怎樣做便是錯？

我想，我暫時不會再回應兩位的留言了，因為，我還要趕製我的論文。如果你們還要準備公開考試的話，也請把時間撥給溫習課本吧，來日方長呢！

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Replies:

[> Subject: 如此一般，何以為人？！
Author: YTK [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 01:12:12 04/27/03 Sun 對不起，我不是說這兩位人兄，我說這!!!!!! http://eratochoi3.netfirms.com/161.html

[> [> Subject: Re: 請公sir幫多一次

Author:
獨眼龍
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 02:44:56 04/27/03 Sun

公sir:
Summer即使說別人 “冇point” “…you should shut up” 亦不算是惡毒的形容詞吧？我看兩方的爭論源於思想方法的不同認識，其實是可以一笑泯恩仇的，請明白Summer 是個愛講理的人，這種人很容易疏忽了用婉轉的語氣表達自己的思想，就好比一個醉心研究科學的人，竟以科學方程去表達對女朋友的愛意！有人覺得這種人是瘋子，我卻看到他的美麗。

我曾經向7b的人這樣說: 「你們欣賞公sir盡責教學等優點,很好,相信Summer也欣賞,事實上, Summer以前在九濟堂的的留言曾經不止一次地贊成公sir一些合理的意見, (請你們自己翻查,我懶得代勞了) 」

你可否再做一次和事佬,證明Summer曾經贊成你的一些高見?你的記憶一定比我好,而且由你做見證,更能化解一些同學對Summer的不滿。多謝。

[> [> [> Subject:

我堅持留在九濟堂發言，目的並不是要博取同學的讚賞

Author:
公仔佬
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 03:12:03 04/27/03 Sun

龍兄：

你終於看出我一向以來在九濟堂想promote的是一種怎樣的討論氣氛了。

其實，Summer不贊成我或其他同學的觀點是沒有任何問題的，只要大家明白，大家都是在人生的旅途上用不同的方法、面對不同的遭遇而不斷摸索，偶有新發現，便高高興興上來九濟堂和其他同學分享一下自己的得著，這些觀點肯定不是完美的，因此，又何必斤斤計較你對我錯呢？
我今天還以為是對的道理或做法，到了明天，我又可能會覺得自己是錯的呢！「悟以往之不諫，知來者之可追」嘛！

我以前做訓導老師時很惡死，有我講沒有學生講，但發覺收效不大。因此，慢慢形成今天「多規勸、少重責」、「寧可放過，不會殺錯」的方法。其實，我今天教學生的待人接物的道理和從前沒有很大的不同，但效果迥異。我想，這一項經驗也是值得和大家分享的。

[> Subject: sit on the wall to please everyone is easy
Author: Summer [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 11:02:40 04/27/03 Sun You still refuse to help to prove I have also agreed with you before? To sit on the wall to try to please everyone is easy, but it can't help students to grow.

[> [> Subject:

既然你的留言人人有讀，又何需我舉證呢？

Author:
公仔佬
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:43:46 04/27/03 Sun

You still refuse to help to prove I have also agreed
with you before?
既然你的留言人人有讀，又何需我舉證呢？

To sit on the wall to try to please everyone is easy,
but it can't help students to grow.
你這句話太深了，我不明白。你是說我不敢指出學生的錯誤，不能幫助學生改進嗎？難道這是我留給你的印象？

你是說我不肯指出7b學生的錯誤，不能幫助他們改進嗎？
第一、他們是成年人，比你更硬頸；況且他們也跟你一樣，不覺得自己做錯。
第二、他們已離校，我不能再用扣分、記過等手段去恐嚇他們。
第三、我驚佢地放學「伏（音僕）」我，你肯唔肯保護我放學丫？
以上純熟講笑。

我只可以告訴你，我想到的方法，我已用盡了。現在的公仔佬，已準備解甲歸田，漁樵耕讀去了。教好他們的責任，交給你了。

[> Subject: Re: 致獨眼龍及Summer二君

Author:
一位家長
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 22:20:08 04/27/03 Sun

公仔佬, 請釋疑, 我確實是一位家長, 我很同意您的說法, 其實每個人對不同事物的都會有和應該有自己的一套睇法, 尤其應鼓勵如我兒(或Summer,又或獨眼龍)的年青人去獨立思考, 而公仔佬和我等一眾比較年長的則應從旁指引, 我覺得公仔佬一直能在九濟堂做到這點。

我提議您不要再回應Summer, 因為我覺得他態度有問題(連對別人應有的尊重都沒有, 如其他的聖方濟學生都是這樣的話, 作為家長, 我很失望, 幸好我在這裡和其他地方看到很多其他態度很好的例子), 亦無空間去聆聽和接受其他人的意見, 大有"順我者昌, 逆我者亡"之勢, 我纔真覺得他像一個dictator呢!與其和他無休止的廝混, 不若大家不作回應, 讓他在沒有對手的情況下收手吧! (雖然他可能會認為大家理虧和詞窮, 由他吧!)

[> [> Subject:

Re: I totally agree to the parent's comment

Author:
Ms J Tsang
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 23:16:55 04/27/03 Sun

I totally agree to what the parent has commented and I do believe the status of the writer. In fact, I've telling Kung Chai Lo not to bother so much about Summer if he is so "stubborn" (Please excuse me for using such word.) and always refuses to see things from different perspectives. But Kung insists that this is one of the channels to inform (if not to use the word "educate" or "teach" as some of you may think it's too strong) students that while observing freedom of speech, we should also learn to accept different opinions as we accept different social and cultural values. I appreciate his effort in achieving and fulfilling his vision and mission in education. However, I share the parent's view that it is sensible to stay away from the scene for a while to let things cool down first.
I also appreciate Summer's effort in posting his message in English. Not many students would insist doing this. However, as a second language learner, Summer may find it difficult in expressing his ideas in the right choice of words, let alone in the right tone. He may have irritated other people without realising himself merely due to his proficiency in the target language. Therefore, I would suggest (Please note that I have used the word "suggest", not "advise". Can you see the milder tone here? That's what I mean by the right choice of words or tone.) Summer to read more English books or newspapers and to pay attention to better writers' choice of lexical items and expressions. Gradually, you may know how to express your ideas or reasons in the right register so that other people will understand exactly what you want to say without arousing unnecessary unpleasant feelings (Please note that I did not use the word "anger" or "quarrel" here. Can you see the difference?)
I wish I could offer help to Summer in brushing up his English because I do appreciate his choice of the language. But meanwhile, I think it is wise of him to spare more time on preparing for his public examination.
Please remember the essence of "We agree to disagree."
Good luck! Good health! God bless you!

[> Subject: My reply to the so-called parent and teachers

Author:
Summer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 23:57:19 04/27/03 Sun

From what can teachers say the 一位家長 who write here is a real parent? it's only a guess. In fact I don't think he or she is a parent. If a parent see that a student write something like "it's no harm to bet a little money on horse-racing", should he or she say something to tell the student this is wrong? If facing horse-racing gambling and a parent or teacher still say "it's difficult to say it's right or wrong", what kind of moral education are we giving to students?
Honestly I am a little angry to see no teacher and no parent dare say one word to point out to bet on horse-racing is wrong however small the bet is.
My English is not good, but enough to make my view clear. I will keep on reading more books and newspapers, this goes without saying. Thanks for for suggestion.

[> [> Subject: Re: My reply to the so-called parent and teachers

Author:
一位家長
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 00:20:59 04/28/03 Mon

Mr. Summer, I don't think it's necessary for me to prove to you that I'm a parent and to response to what you have said. My son can tell I'm his mother, anyway. But, please make it clear that I have never commented and will never comment here anything about betting on horse-racing is correct or not so please do not mis-lead others. I have already emphasized before I really appreciate the atmosphere of free discussion here but I don't see any meaning for others such as Kung Chai Lo and Ms. Tsang, etc. to convince such a stubborn young man like you.

You don't need to response to me because I won't spend time on you. I'd rather prefer to pay attention on present critical situation about the SARS. Take care.

[> [> Subject: 聲明：我以後不會再回覆Summer的留言
Author: 公仔佬 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 00:41:26 04/28/03 Mon Summer連對別人的基本尊重也沒有，令我在九濟堂留言的謹有動機也徹底摧毀。本人謹聲明： 1. 以後如非必要，不上九濟堂。 2. 本人不會再回應任何與Summer有關的留言，因為我不配。正如某人在其留言中提及，Summer不是人，他是「神」！各位，再見，多多保重。

[> [> [> Subject: Re: 聲明：我以後不會再回覆Summer的留言
Author: 一位家長 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 01:45:23 04/28/03 Mon 公仔佬, 請不要為一棵有虫的樹而放棄整座森林, 好嗎? 請三思。

[> [> [> Subject: Please don't put the responsibility of your decision on me

Author:
Summer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 04:36:06 04/28/03 Mon

>Summer連對別人的基本尊重也沒有，令我在九濟堂留言的謹有?>尨髐]徹底摧毀。
Why you say I do not respect others? I repect everyone here. And I don't see why there is a relationship between whether I respect others and whether you will write here. Afterall, it's your own decision, nothing to do with me. I am only one of the voices here. Please do not put the cause of your decision on my head.
If you have seen the debate here, you can tell in fact which one is more disrespect to others.

>本人謹聲明：
>1. 以後如非必要，不上九濟堂。
>2.
>本人不會再回應任何與Summer有關的留言，因為我不配。正如?>Y人在其留言中提及，Summer不是人，他是「神」！
Why you always make me so important? I always said that every one can say his view. As the webmaster said: whether I am right or wrong is in everyone' heart. Don't put the responsibility on me please. You sound like making a threat.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: 敬給公sir與Summer

Author:
獨眼龍
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 10:21:32 04/28/03 Mon

公sir: 相信你是承認Summer也有優點的,不過是希望他再進一步而已,我看你是"落紅不是無情物,化作春泥更護花"吧.
Summer兄:一些同學可能只是被負面的情緒掩蓋了,而不覺你的優點,相信很多人都承認基本的做人原則的,不要對世人失望,至少我覺得你是優點多於缺點,記得魯迅先生當年怎樣為真理吶喊,'橫眉冷對千夫指'嗎? 魯迅這種人是不懂得運籌帷幄的,但當國家民族處於大是大非的關鍵時代,他們便是社會的良心.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: 落紅？
Author: 唔繫鴉馬? [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 05:10:30 04/29/03 Tue 公仔佬竟然落紅,仲做埋蠢泥? 為O左去護Summer呢孕花? 唔繫鴉馬?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: 一笑忘愁
Author: 獨眼龍 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 10:06:00 04/29/03 Tue 紅者,花也, 落紅,喻公sir別去此堂, 春,當今季節, 泥,營養之物,經云:萬物生於泥,亦即今日天文科學家所指的"星塵",構成各星系甚至你我之基本微微粒也, 誰是被護之花?信是sir母,公sir之嬌妻也. 公sir為此堂操筆勞心久矣,或有冷落sir母之苦,今暫且歸田,是於兩難中止於至善也.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: 0禁都得?
Author: 唔繫鴉馬? [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 02:23:18 04/30/03 Wed 我今日問過Miss,佢話落紅即零落的花,比喻人已死去咁解.落花枯萎,變成養份,滋養佢0既母株,促成母株既生長就叫做化作春泥更護花.佢仲話呢句野用黎描寫為救SARS病人而犧牲0既劉永佳先生就尚算恰當,用來形容革命烈士就更好. 古人詩詞,唔係你話點解就點解架!

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: 二笑忘憂
Author: 獨眼龍 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 10:51:01 04/30/03 Wed 紅,赤也,不及格之色, 落紅,引申指公sir謂summer之傳意技巧未符水準; 非無情,指公sir非對summer憎惡, 春泥,及時之營養物也, 化作春泥,意謂公sir變身, 花,當是 summer矣.

[> Subject:

夠啦,獨眼龍,唔好再用你果一隻眼去判斷,用你隻心眼..................

Author:
『獨輸人』
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 11:29:16 04/28/03 Mon

獨眼龍啊獨眼龍,雖然我唔知你同summer有咩關係,但係你咁樣去維護summer都唔係辨法,你究竟明唔明白,我唔係講緊垃圾,你唔好淨係見到summer既優點而對佢既缺點視而不見,充耳不聞,先唔好講佢優點多定缺點多,總之錯就係錯,有缺點就係有缺點,你處處只講summer既優點,你簡直已將佢變得完美,但實情確非如此,你咁樣難免有點兒那個。我睇完你既post,我覺得都頗有品,但係對於是非黑白,你仲係睇清楚好d,summer態度實在惡劣,唉!!!!
summer就好似吳鐵翼,你就好似莊雲飛,公sir無疑就係鐵手啦!!!
(上述皆四大名捕中人物,詳見四大名捕大對決之五,六,溫瑞安所著)

[> [> Subject: Thank you to 獨眼龍

Author:
Summer
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: 02:51:44 04/29/03 Tue

I have to thank Single-eye Dragon for being so supportive to me. It's a sad thing to see because of this he is attacked by others. I think what Single-eye Dragon said is very reasonable.

The message of『獨輸人』still does not show any improvement in logic. He failed to give even one example to support his accusation and has changed the meaning of Single-eye Dragon's message to benefit his own purpose.

Remember, there is no use to only scold without any sound reason.

[> [> [> Subject: 你話係咪係lo...........................
Author: 『獨輸人』 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 04:42:10 04/29/03 Tue 你話係咪係lo,你鍾意點講係你既事,我有得禁止咩?但係我好似淨係同獨眼龍講架咋wor,咁干卿底事呢??諸事八卦!!自討沒趣!!!

[> [> [> Subject: 忠言逆耳
Author: 人一個 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 09:38:18 04/29/03 Tue Summer，我衷心祝福你會有進步o既一日。 ﹙我諗我講呢句野唔洗logic，唔洗examples，唔洗reasons，唔洗統計資料掛﹚

[> Subject: No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Author: 又係我 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 10:41:59 04/29/03 Tue to 公仔佬請你明白大樹有枯枝, 請不要放棄九濟堂... 九濟堂需要你的指導!!! to Miss Tsang 公仔佬話他如非必要，不上九濟堂, 但你可沒立下這樣的聲明吧? 當你看到這留言, 就看在聲九濟堂上級 99% 的人, 勸勸公仔佬吧! 你知道他其實很希望繼續教導我們...

[> Subject: No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Author: 又係我 [ Edit \| View ]	Date Posted: 10:43:14 04/29/03 Tue to 公仔佬請你明白大樹有枯枝, 請不要放棄九濟堂... 九濟堂需要你的指導!!! to Miss Tsang 公仔佬話他如非必要，不上九濟堂, 但你可沒立下這樣的聲明吧? 當你看到這留言, 就看在聲九濟堂上級 99% 的人, 勸勸公仔佬吧! 你知道他其實很希望繼續教導我們...