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Date Posted: 13:54:22 08/08/05 Mon
Author: Rosie
Author Host/IP: 170.97.167.60
Subject: Magic in Buffyverse
I found this description of MAGIC in the "ATPOBTVS" web site:
"You can say that in some sense, magic is morally neutral--neither innately good or evil in itself. It is how it is used (both intentions and consequences) that determines its status as good or evil. What makes magic on BtVS morally ambiguous is that the consequences rarely turn out according to the original intentions. Good intentions do not always lead to good consequences; and selfish intentions backfire in interesting, unexpected ways that don't necessarily have to do with any intervention on the part of "good"."
If this is true, why do many Buffyverse fans tend to label magic as either "good/white" or "bad/black/dark"? Why polarize magic itself? Shouldn't the practioner or the practioner's intent be labeled as such?
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Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- spiritus, 14:05:49 08/08/05 Mon [1] (4.252.145.144)
i don't think they really are polorizing magic--it's another way to comment on the intent, i think. when i think 'dark magic'--i think that the person who did it is the dark one and that they have bad intentions. magic isn't an entity in and of itself--there must be a practitioner. just an easier way of explaining quickly?
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I think the differentiation is in the spells not the practitioner -- Eurydice, 14:53:42 08/08/05 Mon [1] (141.154.26.230)
There are white magic spells and there are black magic spells and the practitioner chooses between them - those kinds of spells get categorized under white magic and black magic and as far as I can tell, the general thinking throughout time has been that white magic is good (meaning benevolent, non-destructive, one with nature, life-affirming and responsible) and black magic is bad (insert all bad things here). So, Glinda the Good Witch is all in white and the Wicked Witch of the West is all in black.
These categories have been around far longer than Joss has, so it doesn't surprise me if people use them. And Joss isn't immune either, otherwise why did "Bad Willow Doing Bad ThingsFor Bad Reasons" have black hair and "Good Willow Finally Doing Magic For Good Reasons" have white hair?
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Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- chuckit25, 14:54:17 08/08/05 Mon [1] (65.31.232.191)
Magic made women pregnant, not sex because that is "evil".
chuckit25
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HuH? Can you repeat that please? And a little slower this time so I can understand it. -- Christian, 15:13:06 08/08/05 Mon [1] (209.240.205.62)
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Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- Rosie, 15:12:30 08/08/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)
"These categories have been around far longer than Joss has, so it doesn't surprise me if people use them. And Joss isn't immune either, otherwise why did "Bad Willow Doing Bad ThingsFor Bad Reasons" have black hair and "Good Willow Finally Doing Magic For Good Reasons" have white hair?"
Perhaps Willow's hair change came from the state of her emotions while she was practicing magic. Her intentions or her emotional state were usually not that great, whenever she used magic.
Besides, the whole "white magic" and "dark magic" seems like an excuse to blame the state of magic itself, and not the intent of the practioner. Humans have a habit of externalizing their problems or situation a lot.
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Well, if it's an excuse, it's been used since the dawn of time -- Eurydice, 15:53:03 08/08/05 Mon [1] (141.154.26.230)
And future generations might consider our post-modern "everything's relative" to be just as much of an excuse.
But I don't see how putting spells into categories and assigning them names is an "excuse." The categories themselves imply intent, you don't use a black magic spell unless you want a black magic effect, just as you don't use poison unless you want to poison something - that's not making a judgement about the morality of chemistry.
In any case, my point was that the idea of magic being neutral is a law of the Buffyverse and not necessarily the real world understanding that people have, given millenia of interpretation. If you google "white magic" and "black magic," you'll see that there's been a long history behind those terms, that their practice has been associated with and bound up in greater belief systems and philosophies and myths, not to mention centuries of storytelling, and that the whole thing is a lot more complex than just a bunch of Buffy fans getting things "wrong." And considering that we really don't know if magic exists or, if it does, how it works, it seems a bit harsh to be judging peoples' reactions to it as externalizing their problems.
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Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- Rosie, 17:54:32 08/08/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)
"But I don't see how putting spells into categories and assigning them names is an "excuse." The categories themselves imply intent, you don't use a black magic spell unless you want a black magic effect, just as you don't use poison unless you want to poison something - that's not making a judgement about the morality of chemistry."
But that is the point I've been trying to make. That one shouldn't label magic as "dark" or "good"; and that it's all about the magic practioner's intent.
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If we go back to your quote, it's actually got two parts. -- Eurydice, 20:40:07 08/08/05 Mon [1] (141.154.25.113)
The first part of the quote assumes magic is morally neutral, but the second part says that in the Jossverse magic becomes ambiguous because the intent of the practitioner becomes irrelevent. The second part of the quote assumes that there are greater, or at least uncontrollable, forces out there which can subvert anybody's actions. I was just addressing your question, which only referred to the first part of the quote. And you started your question with "If this is true.."
Well, one answer could be that people don't believe magic is morally neutral. And I think that comes from all those millenia of conditioning I was talking about in my other posts - and except for those who are Wiccan and/or those who practice witchcraft (not always the same thing as I've been told), most people don't understand magic or are interested in it or believe it exists, so they'll go along with what the fairy tales told them. I don't think that says anything about their willingness to face facts or accept responsibility.
If you add the second part of the quote into the equation, the thing becames more complicated because the practitioner can't guarantee success at all, regardless of intent. Whether you're a good guy who ended up doing something bad or a bad guy who ended up doing good, neither result is desirable - in this case, magic isn't neutral, it's capricious, and we should take Spike's advice and stay away from it. :-)
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Magic(k) is always a shortcut -- 93curr, 15:40:16 08/08/05 Mon [1] (206.130.170.11)
and, in the Buffyverse, tends to take the form of a prayer.
"oh mighty Hecate, let thy will be done. now, what I want your will to be is....."
and prayers tend to accumulate, like debts. they're borrowed power. if you're requesting power from some supernatural force, there's gonna be a price to pay. like the opening scene of 'The Godfather.'
the difference with Willow as season six progressed is that she went from calling upon an outside force to "cheat" the laws of nature to turning herself into a conduit. that's a lot of power to have to control. (note that in 'Him' she was back to requesting power from an outside source again.) not a big concern at the end of s6, when she was basically planning on using the magick to commit suicide, on an exaggerated scale. but the end of s7 required her to funnel the demonic energy of the Hellmouth right through herself (probably a bit more than Rack had) to activate the scythe. again, she (metaphorically) BECAME a goddess, rather than paying hommage to one.
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Re: Magic(k) is always a shortcut -- chuckit25, 17:12:20 08/08/05 Mon [1] (65.31.232.191)
hmm now that's the part that the joining of Buffy's slayer (spirit) to seed the potentials with the birthing of full fledged human slayer and thus Willow was the mother and a goddess, as is how the natural order is restored--good and evil in one being. And, BTW, talk about warning the tadpoles, another magic birth. Buffy's spirit child is made of dark energy (nature) and made material through her blood to be the key to the universe, Buffy's despairing desire to not be alone, to be "normal" the key to mom Joyce's heart and to be loved and fully love.
Cordy on ATS became mystically pregnant three times and Darla birthed Angel's soul and the materiel of a human life made of his despair to have the key to his own universe, the second chance as a human innocent. And Fred birthed Illyria. All main female characters birthed someone, even Dru made William a vampire. Virginnia refused to dabble in magic, for example, and didn't have any kids, Gwen used a prophylactic.
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Re: Magic(k) is always a shortcut -- Rosie, 17:55:43 08/08/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)
"and, in the Buffyverse, tends to take the form of a prayer.
"oh mighty Hecate, let thy will be done. now, what I want your will to be is....."
and prayers tend to accumulate, like debts. they're borrowed power. if you're requesting power from some supernatural force, there's gonna be a price to pay. like the opening scene of 'The Godfather.'"
Don't Wiccans view "spells" as some kind of prayer, anyway?
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Re: Magic(k) is always a shortcut -- Rosie, 17:58:05 08/08/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)
Isn't there is a price or consequence - whether good or bad - for just about every choice or action you make in life, anyway?
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Re: Magic in Buffyverse -- werewolf123, 16:54:15 08/08/05 Mon [1] (68.12.149.171)
white = simple
Dark = complex
black = lies, propaganda ,possibly evil
chuckit : asexual to sexual reproduction.(little chalky)
chemotherpy is the doctor poisoning the patient in the hope he kills the cancer faster then he kills the patient.
atropine is a nerve inhibitor that will kill. given to counter act nerve gas.
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Re: Magic in Buffyverse - Dark and Light -- Rosie, 18:36:03 08/09/05 Tue [1] (170.97.167.60)
"white = simple
Dark = complex
black = lies, propaganda ,possibly evil"
According to Western society . . . right?
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