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Date Posted: 00:35:47 08/13/05 Sat
Author: AW
Author Host/IP: 4.159.231.67
Subject: Just a thought and a question
In reply to: Christian 's message, "Re-watching some episodes of season 7 and it still doesn't make sense." on 21:04:12 08/12/05 Fri

Everyone worrying about their own issues is also probably why no one sent a heads up the other way about Angel and Cordy...Fred and Gunn were too harried trying to run AI and Wes wanted to redeem himself and find Angel himself. So, he didn't want to call Buffy and company in to help look and they might've been too busy anyway with their problems.

Also, wouldn't it have been a bit harder than usual to alert Faith since first LA got sent into chaos with the enternal darkness, then she wasn't in prison anymore because she was hunting Angelus?

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[> The thing about Buffy wasn't that the slayer line ran through her but -- Ramses 2, 02:41:33 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

that the slayer line ended with her. When Buffy placed her love of Dawn before the mission in season 5, she shook the line up irrevocably, the 'chains' were starting to break free. She was in fact the first slayer to break free from the 'mission before all else'. This presented the First(who preyed on guilt and shame) with the opportunity to step in and capitalize....it knows Buffy is wracked with guilt and self loathing, she's gone from putting love before mission to putting mission above all else in order to be the slayer she's been trained to be...or at least she's trying desperately to be.(Remember in 5 Giles believed it was a grave failing that she couldn't sacrifice Dawn)

So for the First, it wants Buffy to be the last slayer....both literally and figuratively. Beloxi's Eye spoke of Buffy being the end of the line, as did the shamans, and the First....she becomes the 'Chosen' one all over again. The twist? She indeed is the important one, the one everyone both good and evil have been waiting for, her resurrection has brought her back afraid to love and feel but with a slayer's need to reclaim her fire. When she does so, she restarts the slayer line and changes absolutely everything.

Even for Faith. Faith's line is dead. Buffy has given birth to a new order. We aren't supposed to see Buffy and Willow wreaking havock with the line, rather we see the line is finally free from the restraints on love....it's refashioned with love......it may look to many like Buffy was 'raping' all those girls but Joss certainly didn't intend for that reading. If 5 ended with The Gift, I'd say Joss thought he'd echo the final episode ever with yet another take on the gift motif. Each slayer free to accept her gift without restraints.(There's a reason why we always saw the First Slayer in chains)


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[> [> This is where I thought the Nikki/Robin thing was going -- Eurydice, 10:01:10 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.53.182)

That one could give up slaying for her "child" and the other couldn't, and that's what set Buffy apart from all the other Slayers. But it turned out to be an overdeveloped backstory for a single-use character - and then, of all things, a "mommy loved me best" pissing match between Spike and Robin. I mean really, what ever happened to All About Buffy? ;-)


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[> [> I think the pissing match was there to set up -- Ramses 2, 10:52:15 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

that not only do 'good' slayers sacrifice loved ones for the mission but that Spike, being "Mr. I Know Slayers, Ask Me How", absolutely believes this is never going to change. He is as tied into the old ways as Giles himself.

Why is this important you ask? Hasn't got a damn thing to do with Wood, not really....but it sets up Spike not believing Buffy in the end. And it sets up the transformation of the Slayer.(Yes, it's still all about Buffy) She's changed. The line's changed. She can, unlike Nikki, finally put love totally guilt free first...the problem? She's changed, Spike doesn't understand.

As for Spike's mum.....it's interesting in dusting she becomes the loving mother again....Nikki and Buffy both are seen as faces of the First, no loving normalcy there. The Slayer is every bit a part of the problem...the line needs changing.


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[> [> [> Ah, dawn breaks over Marblehead :-) -- Eurydice, 11:17:59 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.54.151)

So Spike still goes up in flames, but thank god Buffy's finally changed. ;-) But all snark aside, this makes sense.

I must admit that I watched the final episodes with my hands over my eyes, so I missed the surprise ending when they revealed what the actual point of the season was...ok, that was snark...


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[> [> [> Snarks good:) (Are you really in Marblehead? sobs) -- Ramses 2, 11:42:44 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

My most favorite place almost in the world. There used to be this little place called the King's Rook(?).....I'd kill most of a Sunday morning there before we'd sail out of the Corinthian.(Ah, good times)

Point of the season? Why Buffy of course. Remember, It's All About Buffy.


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[> [> [> [> I think Spike does understand "Buffy 's being chamged" -- Christian, 13:29:58 08/13/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

There was nothing holding Spike back after he became corporeal in Angel season 5. He could have easily ran back to Buffy. He didn't. He understood Buffy being changed.

It really marked Spike as a changed man too. There were other things happening in L.A./Fred's death/Apocolypse other than Buffy. It made me totally like/love the character and had a newfound respect for him.

Damn The WB for cancelling Angel!


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[> [> [> [> [> Actually Christian, the thing holding Spike back -- Ramses 2, 16:48:57 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

is that he doesn't realize the extent of change. Nothing's changed for Spike, everything has for Buffy.

We get that she's changed, but he's still trying to stop her from dancing.(TGIQ) He see's that she may only be about his sacrifice.......we know that Buffy would have been more than pleased to see him back.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Angel had the same problem, too -- Eurydice, 19:32:51 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.55.238)

Spike saw Buffy as the Goddess Slayer who must be worshipped and Angel saw her as the Child Slayer who must be protected. But I also think that apart from what Buffy might or might not feel about him, Spike's own opinion of himself was tied up in his heroic sacrifice, just as Angel's self-worth was all about being "The Champion." In that way, neither of them had moved on as much as Buffy had - which makes sense since her story was over and theirs wasn't.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel had the same problem, too -- Rosie, 16:57:25 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)

"Spike saw Buffy as the Goddess Slayer who must be worshipped and Angel saw her as the Child Slayer who must be protected."

I don't know about Angel, but I find it VERY hard to believe that Spike viewed Buffy as some Goddess Slayer. As much as he had loved her, Spike's view of Buffy could be brutally honest and forthright. And this opinion that he viewed her as a "goddess" doesn't jibe with his comments in "Touched" that he had "seen the best and the worst of her"; and that she was "one hell of a woman".


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> One doesn't have to be blind to worship -- Eurydice, 19:02:39 08/15/05 Mon [1] (141.154.22.57)

And if you take a look at some of the Greek gods, they weren't all sweetness and light. They had some pretty serious dark sides - people saw the best and worst of them and they still worshipped.

Yes, Spike has been brutally honest with Buffy - other times he's been brutally deceitful. Theirs has been a complex relationship. But regardless, Spike has always followed Buffy's lead. I think that was the point of him being the only one to stay loyal despite her mistakes and imperious behavior - everything he did he did for Buffy. And that's what makes his final sacrifice so important - he finally did something for himself. Of course, then he had to backslide a bit on Ats so the writers could make room for a couple more epiphanies.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> Yup(oh, dear I can't say anything more intelligent than that:)) -- Ramses 2, 20:40:33 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

As much as I love Spike and Angel more, I have to believe we were to see Buffy as further ahead than them. They were still operating under the old rules. Times had changed, they needed to catch up.....hence season 5 ATS.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, i'm just angry that we couldn't get more of Angel/Spike stories. -- Christian, 23:41:27 08/13/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

Angel season 5 is my all time favorte season of Angel. DB said he wanted to o an episode where he an Spike dressed up in "Drag" THAT would have been CLASSIC with a capital "C"!


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yup(oh, dear I can't say anything more intelligent than that:)) -- Rosie, 17:08:48 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.67.142)

"As much as I love Spike and Angel more, I have to believe we were to see Buffy as further ahead than them. They were still operating under the old rules. Times had changed, they needed to catch up."

I REALLY have a hard time believing this. I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you've completely ignored Spike's main problem in regard to Buffy. It has nothing to do with any "old view" of Slayerhood or anything like that. I believe it has a lot to do with his own insecurities.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If the story was Spike! The Vampire that would be the correct reading -- Ramses 2, 20:28:56 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

But it was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the ending was supposed to be a triumphant one for her.....since the story from season 1 on was a simple coming of age tale, one should be able to conclude that Chosen ends with Buffy as a grown up woman, fully accepting of self.(in other words: teen addresses her issues, comes to terms with who she is, and finally grows up) The old ways? Well season 7 concentrates on stressing that the line is damaged, wrong at it's inception and needing something huge to happen to restart it....and ME has Spike remind us from time to time that the Slayer(not just Buffy)is very much 'stuck' going through the motions but unable to put anything before the mission. It's only when she faces herself, puts the past in the past that we see her move forward. So, yeah...you better believe the old view of the Slayer mattered to the storyline. If we weren't reminded of this we wouldn't understand that the restart of the line was a very good thing in the end.

And make no mistake, Joss wanted us to see her capable of moving forward. Joss will use this theme of moving forward and growing up again in ATS 5, when both vamps must move forward or stay mere pawns. And we really see this happening after TGIQ with each vampire addressing the issues that led to their metaphorical immaturity.(At Andrew's prodding) Bottom line? Sure, I agree Spike was insecure, but in the context of the larger epic story, this is played out as the vampire who helped the Slayer, who knew the Slayer best, who gave her the strength to face her issues and grow up, cannot recognize that she has.... because the line has changed. His Slayer has restarted the line, his slayer is no longer tied to the dance. Everything he believes about her has changed. He wins her love but loses her all over again.

So Chosen is about Buffy, not Spike's insecurities. NFA? Definitely, we see Spike adressing them....but that still means Buffy is further ahead than him. But I think Joss allows us to assume something major is happening to both Spike and Angel. If being a vampire is a metaphor for immaturity and stunted growth, and we see them finally addressing that....then in the epic story at large, this is equally as important as getting a soul.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I was going to say exactly this :-) -- Eurydice, 21:18:56 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

Ok, I sort of thought it, but you said it coherently.

And for all the sneering about TGIQ, it was really a pretty serious episode. We got to see that Spike and Angel weren't just "narrowly missing" Buffy, they were chasing a girl who didn't exist anymore. Sort of interesting that the real ghost of season 5 was Buffy, not Spike.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! :) (Regarding Buffy as the real ghost of ATS 5) -- Ramses 2, 22:05:48 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

And I think it's not for nothing that we [almost] see Buffy dancing in TGIQ. For how many seasons we've seen this as a metaphor for the slayer/vampire relationship. There's something sexual and intimate here......Spike's been shown dancing with her, trying to stop her from dancing to death, to being too weary to dance...Angel doesn't 'dance' with Buffy, he's always shown watching....so through the metaphor we see how each relationship played out.

Then in TGIQ, Angel is shown afraid to dance(his curse) and Spike wants to go and rescue her as she dances....but she doesn't need rescuing. Her dance isn't with vampires anymore. She's just a young woman having fun. Both vampires want to continue in a relationship that we know doesn't work for any of them.


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And when Spike first saw her, she was dancing -- Eurydice, 22:26:46 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

Only he was the predator then. And oooooh, he could have danced all night with Nikki. I think we have another leitmotif. :-)


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[> [> [> Spike Doesn't Understand? -- Rosie, 17:06:00 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.67.142)

"Why is this important you ask? Hasn't got a damn thing to do with Wood, not really....but it sets up Spike not believing Buffy in the end. And it sets up the transformation of the Slayer.(Yes, it's still all about Buffy) She's changed. The line's changed. She can, unlike Nikki, finally put love totally guilt free first...the problem? She's changed, Spike doesn't understand."


And why doesn't Spike understand? Not because he has an old fashioned view of Slayers. He doesn't understand because he continues to be wracked by self-doubt and insecurity. That has always been Spike's number one problem. He was always insecure. Which would explain why up to "Destiny", Angel was always able to kick his ass. This would also explain why (along with seeing Buffy kiss Angel) he believed that Buffy never loved him . . . despite her attempt to tell him how she felt before her reunion with Angel in "End of Days". And this insecurity also explains how a die-hard non-conformist such as Spike seemed to have this great need to be part of a "gang" or a group of friends. He was insecure . . . and he was afraid to be alone.


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