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[> [> Re: here's how I see it -- silveragent, 01:37:30 08/13/05 Sat [1] (63.199.111.93)

What exactly about Buffy "allowed" the First Evil to attack the Potentials? That doesn't make sense since the last time we'd seen it Buffy didn't defeat it, really. She just convinced Angel not to commit suicide. Other than that, not much.

Instead we get time after time the First Evil telling it's henchmen to leave Buffy alone. Not to kill her. Spike under whatever whammy, the Ubervamp, even Caleb. CALEB has her alone and unconcious and just ... leaves her there. Why?

The vulnerability probably was originally intended to be ... BUFFY and the FE planned to possess her ala Caleb. This explains Spike's role (the corrupter/tempter, however uncomprehending) that the FE planned out, and a lot of other stuff that plot-wise doesn't make sense. The menace being ...

Buffy herself as a sort of Glory powered figure all the time, imagine what she'd do with the FE's power if ordinary Caleb could beat her fully powered. That seemed to be the "threat" any way.

I imagine at some point ME just dropped evil Buffy, or the threat of it, for a variety of reasons. Repetitive and not very indicative of good writing? Yeah but ME milked "good guys go bad" over and over and over again. Faith, Connor, Willow, Angel, Spike (sort of), Wes (sort of), X-Fred, Jonathon/Andrew (sort of), Amy, and I've probably forgotten a few.

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[> [> [> I got the same impression -- Eurydice, 07:50:25 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.53.182)

Especially with the bit about FE wanting to become corporeal. I kind of thought that it would be an extension of season 6, with Buffy having discovered her darker self, then thinking she'd defeated it, and then Dark Buffy coming back as the actual tangible threat. But Dark Buffy stayed a metaphor and went away with a single "Boo!"

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[> [> [> [> Yup the symbolic blood letting boggles my mind -- Ramses 2, 11:00:27 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

I can't even wank it as First Buffy as Buffy(METAPHOR!) needed to believe Spike was different and that Jonathon was just the almost faceless kid she just kept having to save until she was fed up with the saving.....toss in the pig and the symbolic bloodletting is a mess on so many different levels:)

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[> [> [> [> [> Oh, shoot! Eurydice this is a response for further down -- Ramses 2, 11:01:48 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

My bad.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> cpjNMyilVOugJEJQ -- tbvdxwzzr (LCdJunxAxZSLepjTZZ), 14:21:27 11/14/08 Fri [1] (195.96.131.66)

Vr1LrF emdjjxlyryew, [url=http://wrroflcenyoa.com/]wrroflcenyoa[/url], [link=http://xhzhuvwrmixe.com/]xhzhuvwrmixe[/link], http://clcxpdsqsgug.com/

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[> [> [> Actaully it was a single, "Get out of my face!" -- Ramses 2, 09:13:40 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

Dark Buffy was a hamfisted metaphor.....then again, there are still a huge number of people who instist seasons 6 & 7 were metaphorless.

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[> [> [> [> Ah, a subtle but important distinction. ;-) -- Eurydice, 09:53:06 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.53.182)

You know, some of my favorite books have crappy writing and clumsy plotting, but really interesting ideas. And if I hadn't been spoiled by years of excellent ME writing, I'd have loved season 7. Practically every episode had something kind of cool going on in it which sparked my imagination - but once you start expecting continuity and follow-through...well...

And I still can't get my head wrapped around the blood-letting thingy. Jonathan was anemic, so it wasn't just blood that opened the seal, it was the level of red blood cells. But evidently old packaged pig's blood was ok, as was really old rat's blood from a dead vampire's circulatory system which couldn't keep any cells alive in the first place, not to mention Andrew's drippy snivels. And then, there are the carved-in symbols - with Spike, there had to be symbls, why? And if we've got symbols on Spike and symbols on Andrew's ceremonial pig sticker, then what are the odds that they're the same symbols but the Scoobys are too stupid to make the connection? Hmmmm, forget I asked that question...

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[> [> [> [> [> ExactlyEurydice I think the reason most complain about season 6-7 -- Christian, 13:12:57 08/13/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

Because seasons 1-5 was nothing short of brilliance! (well for me anyway). Although some found season 4 not so. Although as Ramses 2 stated that in second viewing season 4 isn't that bad. It was the villian Adam that wasn't that interesting.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> AknvrNjABVJ -- -1 (wyIqSGTzPnBM), 14:21:31 11/14/08 Fri [1] (196.192.81.96)

FNGSgS muwwunitwacw, [url=http://pxoqndzsusqo.com/]pxoqndzsusqo[/url], [link=http://kyhjlohylsci.com/]kyhjlohylsci[/link], http://cgdaeiwosqmv.com/

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[> [> I think the pissing match was there to set up -- Ramses 2, 10:52:15 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

that not only do 'good' slayers sacrifice loved ones for the mission but that Spike, being "Mr. I Know Slayers, Ask Me How", absolutely believes this is never going to change. He is as tied into the old ways as Giles himself.

Why is this important you ask? Hasn't got a damn thing to do with Wood, not really....but it sets up Spike not believing Buffy in the end. And it sets up the transformation of the Slayer.(Yes, it's still all about Buffy) She's changed. The line's changed. She can, unlike Nikki, finally put love totally guilt free first...the problem? She's changed, Spike doesn't understand.

As for Spike's mum.....it's interesting in dusting she becomes the loving mother again....Nikki and Buffy both are seen as faces of the First, no loving normalcy there. The Slayer is every bit a part of the problem...the line needs changing.

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[> [> [> Ah, dawn breaks over Marblehead :-) -- Eurydice, 11:17:59 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.54.151)

So Spike still goes up in flames, but thank god Buffy's finally changed. ;-) But all snark aside, this makes sense.

I must admit that I watched the final episodes with my hands over my eyes, so I missed the surprise ending when they revealed what the actual point of the season was...ok, that was snark...

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[> [> [> Snarks good:) (Are you really in Marblehead? sobs) -- Ramses 2, 11:42:44 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

My most favorite place almost in the world. There used to be this little place called the King's Rook(?).....I'd kill most of a Sunday morning there before we'd sail out of the Corinthian.(Ah, good times)

Point of the season? Why Buffy of course. Remember, It's All About Buffy.

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[> [> [> [> I think Spike does understand "Buffy 's being chamged" -- Christian, 13:29:58 08/13/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

There was nothing holding Spike back after he became corporeal in Angel season 5. He could have easily ran back to Buffy. He didn't. He understood Buffy being changed.

It really marked Spike as a changed man too. There were other things happening in L.A./Fred's death/Apocolypse other than Buffy. It made me totally like/love the character and had a newfound respect for him.

Damn The WB for cancelling Angel!

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[> [> [> [> [> Actually Christian, the thing holding Spike back -- Ramses 2, 16:48:57 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

is that he doesn't realize the extent of change. Nothing's changed for Spike, everything has for Buffy.

We get that she's changed, but he's still trying to stop her from dancing.(TGIQ) He see's that she may only be about his sacrifice.......we know that Buffy would have been more than pleased to see him back.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Angel had the same problem, too -- Eurydice, 19:32:51 08/13/05 Sat [1] (151.203.55.238)

Spike saw Buffy as the Goddess Slayer who must be worshipped and Angel saw her as the Child Slayer who must be protected. But I also think that apart from what Buffy might or might not feel about him, Spike's own opinion of himself was tied up in his heroic sacrifice, just as Angel's self-worth was all about being "The Champion." In that way, neither of them had moved on as much as Buffy had - which makes sense since her story was over and theirs wasn't.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel had the same problem, too -- Rosie, 16:57:25 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.167.60)

"Spike saw Buffy as the Goddess Slayer who must be worshipped and Angel saw her as the Child Slayer who must be protected."

I don't know about Angel, but I find it VERY hard to believe that Spike viewed Buffy as some Goddess Slayer. As much as he had loved her, Spike's view of Buffy could be brutally honest and forthright. And this opinion that he viewed her as a "goddess" doesn't jibe with his comments in "Touched" that he had "seen the best and the worst of her"; and that she was "one hell of a woman".

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> One doesn't have to be blind to worship -- Eurydice, 19:02:39 08/15/05 Mon [1] (141.154.22.57)

And if you take a look at some of the Greek gods, they weren't all sweetness and light. They had some pretty serious dark sides - people saw the best and worst of them and they still worshipped.

Yes, Spike has been brutally honest with Buffy - other times he's been brutally deceitful. Theirs has been a complex relationship. But regardless, Spike has always followed Buffy's lead. I think that was the point of him being the only one to stay loyal despite her mistakes and imperious behavior - everything he did he did for Buffy. And that's what makes his final sacrifice so important - he finally did something for himself. Of course, then he had to backslide a bit on Ats so the writers could make room for a couple more epiphanies.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Yup(oh, dear I can't say anything more intelligent than that:)) -- Ramses 2, 20:40:33 08/13/05 Sat [1] (69.242.120.180)

As much as I love Spike and Angel more, I have to believe we were to see Buffy as further ahead than them. They were still operating under the old rules. Times had changed, they needed to catch up.....hence season 5 ATS.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, i'm just angry that we couldn't get more of Angel/Spike stories. -- Christian, 23:41:27 08/13/05 Sat [1] (209.240.205.62)

Angel season 5 is my all time favorte season of Angel. DB said he wanted to o an episode where he an Spike dressed up in "Drag" THAT would have been CLASSIC with a capital "C"!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Yup(oh, dear I can't say anything more intelligent than that:)) -- Rosie, 17:08:48 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.67.142)

"As much as I love Spike and Angel more, I have to believe we were to see Buffy as further ahead than them. They were still operating under the old rules. Times had changed, they needed to catch up."

I REALLY have a hard time believing this. I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you've completely ignored Spike's main problem in regard to Buffy. It has nothing to do with any "old view" of Slayerhood or anything like that. I believe it has a lot to do with his own insecurities.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> If the story was Spike! The Vampire that would be the correct reading -- Ramses 2, 20:28:56 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

But it was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the ending was supposed to be a triumphant one for her.....since the story from season 1 on was a simple coming of age tale, one should be able to conclude that Chosen ends with Buffy as a grown up woman, fully accepting of self.(in other words: teen addresses her issues, comes to terms with who she is, and finally grows up) The old ways? Well season 7 concentrates on stressing that the line is damaged, wrong at it's inception and needing something huge to happen to restart it....and ME has Spike remind us from time to time that the Slayer(not just Buffy)is very much 'stuck' going through the motions but unable to put anything before the mission. It's only when she faces herself, puts the past in the past that we see her move forward. So, yeah...you better believe the old view of the Slayer mattered to the storyline. If we weren't reminded of this we wouldn't understand that the restart of the line was a very good thing in the end.

And make no mistake, Joss wanted us to see her capable of moving forward. Joss will use this theme of moving forward and growing up again in ATS 5, when both vamps must move forward or stay mere pawns. And we really see this happening after TGIQ with each vampire addressing the issues that led to their metaphorical immaturity.(At Andrew's prodding) Bottom line? Sure, I agree Spike was insecure, but in the context of the larger epic story, this is played out as the vampire who helped the Slayer, who knew the Slayer best, who gave her the strength to face her issues and grow up, cannot recognize that she has.... because the line has changed. His Slayer has restarted the line, his slayer is no longer tied to the dance. Everything he believes about her has changed. He wins her love but loses her all over again.

So Chosen is about Buffy, not Spike's insecurities. NFA? Definitely, we see Spike adressing them....but that still means Buffy is further ahead than him. But I think Joss allows us to assume something major is happening to both Spike and Angel. If being a vampire is a metaphor for immaturity and stunted growth, and we see them finally addressing that....then in the epic story at large, this is equally as important as getting a soul.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yeah, I was going to say exactly this :-) -- Eurydice, 21:18:56 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

Ok, I sort of thought it, but you said it coherently.

And for all the sneering about TGIQ, it was really a pretty serious episode. We got to see that Spike and Angel weren't just "narrowly missing" Buffy, they were chasing a girl who didn't exist anymore. Sort of interesting that the real ghost of season 5 was Buffy, not Spike.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Exactly! :) (Regarding Buffy as the real ghost of ATS 5) -- Ramses 2, 22:05:48 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

And I think it's not for nothing that we [almost] see Buffy dancing in TGIQ. For how many seasons we've seen this as a metaphor for the slayer/vampire relationship. There's something sexual and intimate here......Spike's been shown dancing with her, trying to stop her from dancing to death, to being too weary to dance...Angel doesn't 'dance' with Buffy, he's always shown watching....so through the metaphor we see how each relationship played out.

Then in TGIQ, Angel is shown afraid to dance(his curse) and Spike wants to go and rescue her as she dances....but she doesn't need rescuing. Her dance isn't with vampires anymore. She's just a young woman having fun. Both vampires want to continue in a relationship that we know doesn't work for any of them.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> And when Spike first saw her, she was dancing -- Eurydice, 22:26:46 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

Only he was the predator then. And oooooh, he could have danced all night with Nikki. I think we have another leitmotif. :-)

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[> [> [> Spike Doesn't Understand? -- Rosie, 17:06:00 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.67.142)

"Why is this important you ask? Hasn't got a damn thing to do with Wood, not really....but it sets up Spike not believing Buffy in the end. And it sets up the transformation of the Slayer.(Yes, it's still all about Buffy) She's changed. The line's changed. She can, unlike Nikki, finally put love totally guilt free first...the problem? She's changed, Spike doesn't understand."


And why doesn't Spike understand? Not because he has an old fashioned view of Slayers. He doesn't understand because he continues to be wracked by self-doubt and insecurity. That has always been Spike's number one problem. He was always insecure. Which would explain why up to "Destiny", Angel was always able to kick his ass. This would also explain why (along with seeing Buffy kiss Angel) he believed that Buffy never loved him . . . despite her attempt to tell him how she felt before her reunion with Angel in "End of Days". And this insecurity also explains how a die-hard non-conformist such as Spike seemed to have this great need to be part of a "gang" or a group of friends. He was insecure . . . and he was afraid to be alone.

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[> [> I agree AW, people that analyze the show via writers and actors -- Ramses 2, 16:06:09 08/14/05 Sun [1] (69.242.120.180)

interviews are always destined to believe the show was just a tumble. I tend to think in their haste to get at 'what was really happening', people forget that these interviews often were given at a time when the story was still in play.....no one was going to give story detail away. No one.

Joss keeps telling us to trust the tale....it actually works. Listening to JM talk about William being an evil serial killer? Not so much.

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[> [> [> And you are ttally right. We sould trust the tale. -- Christian, 23:23:45 08/14/05 Sun [1] (209.240.205.62)

But the thing is all of us interpreted it in so many different ways because the "TALE" was very confusing at times.

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[> [> Bad Writing? Oh Please! -- Rosie, 17:12:01 08/15/05 Mon [1] (170.97.67.115)

A lot of people complained about Season 7 having bad writing.

I thought the writing - aside from a few mid-season episodes - were great. Season 7's story was very complex and many people simply did not understand it. They had believed that Whedon would simply recapture the old days and he ended up pulling the rug from under their feet.

After reading some of these comments about S7, I'm beginning to suspect that many fans did not want Buffy to grow up.

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[> [> [> No -- Eurydice, 19:51:16 08/15/05 Mon [1] (141.154.22.57)

Season 7's story wasn't incredibly complex, it was very very simple. However, the execution of that story was made overly complicated by plot switches, red herrings, dropped threads and behind the scenes business decisions. The writers themselves have admitted to changing the focus at different times during the season in order to accomodate a potential spin-off.

And I don't recall anybody in this thread having a problem with Buffy growing up, or wanting things to be the same as in early seasons, or not being able to understand the message of facing one's own fears - not only is that message painfully simple, it's also one we hear every day from a lot of other sources than just Joss.

You liked the writing in season 7, that's great for you. Other people didn't like it, that's great for them. But just because you disagree with people doesn't make them all a bunch of idiots in denial.

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[> [> I'm not sure I buy all the various spin off talk -- Ramses 2, 21:12:38 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

Faith, Spike and Wood? Yes, I can see that. Sit school or Dawn and her own scooby gang? Sorry, I never saw anything that would support either of these two ideas. Lessons was All About Buffy, it wasn't a concentrated effort to showcase Dawn. She then went back to being almost wallpaper.

The sits? The sits were simply employed as a symbolic device to show Buffy's issues piling up on her proverbial and literal doorstep. Every care was taken to make us as fed up with them as Buffy herself was. If they had truly wanted a sit spinoff they would have fleshed them out a bit.

I don't think the storyline of 7 was complicated at all. I think it got rather murky not from dropped threads so much as throwing gotchas and red herrings into a season that was already asking people to recognize metaphors and symbols everywhere. If Giles isn't the First but you just wanted to play with peoples heads, then don't make it also an important part of the story that the watchers council didn't have the girls best interest at heart and they themselves needed watching.

But other things that people say are dropped threads...like Beloxi's Eye and the First not being effective is imo just missing that in season 7, Buffy was Buffy's worst enemy.

And I think Joss was very enamored of the comic book form and tried to play with some of that in 7, while it was an interesting concept I don't think it actually was a smart idea after season 6.

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[> [> [> Well, I don't know -- Eurydice, 21:58:21 08/15/05 Mon [1] (151.203.52.118)

I do think there was some occasional drifting away from All About Buffy. Characters like Wood and Andrew and Kennedy (just to name a couple) got that extra little bit of attention which raises suspicion. Sort of like when the camera does a closeup on some random knick-knack and you just know it'll turn out to be the murder weapon. The same is true of certain threads and ideas - too much attention leads to expectation.

And I don't think that wondering about FE's effectiveness is missing the point. Over the years we've seen that Whedonverse characters have a dual purpose - they're metaphors but they've got a physical presence, too - a presence which physically affects their surroundings. Vampires represented arrested development and immaturity, but they still had to be dealt with as vampires - there had to be a somewhat consistent framework in which they operated. The same with FE - it might have represented Buffy's darkest self, but it was also depicted as an entity unto itself - an entity older than time and powerful enough to command armies. Its attentions weren't just focussed on Buffy, it was destroying the entire Slayer system around the planet - we saw this happen before our eyes at the beginning of the season. So, when faced with this sort of physical evidence, I don't think it's unreasonable for the audience to expect some sort of coherent explanantion of how it works, even if they already understand the metaphor part of the equation.

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[> [> [> I guess so but -- Ramses 2, 22:52:08 08/15/05 Mon [1] (69.242.120.180)

I think I can understand(at least it works for me) that what looks to be the absolutely worst threat turns out to be something easily defeated by facing it head on and dealing with it. Buffy spends 7 seasons worried about her darkness, she spends a huge chunk of time refusing to examine her issues with her self....huge buildup pointing to her being somehow not quite right. When she finally accepts what she fears most, the fear simply goes away.

I think they did tie the First and Caleb to people's fears and insecurities. As for what it wanted? I actually think the greater failing in the story was making it have a goal. Evil found in the hearts of every man, woman, child and poodle shouldn't need a goal. The fact that it could lead(seduce)people into giving into their strongest fears without being embodied? Not a totally loser idea. Making it want to be able to touch? Maybe it's as stupid as it sounds...or maybe they were trying to say something about Buffy's inability to 'touch', her lack of fire?(Insert shrug:))

I definitely think Wood was being mulled over for a spinoff. I think I read somewhere that he was supposed to be with Faith and Spike. Kennedy always seemed like a hamfisted attempt to placate a group of fans. She certainly didn't seem to be, at least to me, anyone that was being setup to star in a spinoff. Andrew always seemed like the writers attempt to wink and nod and pull the audience in as a part of the story. Andrew definitely made it feel as we were watching a last season, I didn't get spinoff from him.

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