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Date Posted: 17:08:03 08/03/05 Wed
Author: Kashmanik
Author Host/IP: 217.43.3.119
Subject: Would Dawn have been a better character if she'd been younger?
Just happened to see "Tough Love" on TV today and got thinking about S5, and indeed the later two seasons.
Before I go on, let me say I love S5 as it is. But if Dawn had been an 8 or 9 year old girl instead of a (14/15?) year old would it have added more drama? Particularly as the show went on in S6 and S7. For a lot of S6 Dawn was "too young" to get involved in the more physical aspects of demon fighting, but that didn't really match up with MT's image (and sometimes the way she played the character.)
Had a younger actor been hired there could have been the potential for greater drama and poignancy, particularly in S5.
Or are you glad Dawn was allowed to grow up and get involved in S7?
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Re: Would Dawn have been a better character if she'd been younger? -- spikeme, 17:32:38 08/03/05 Wed [1] (69.253.95.120)
I never thought it made much sense that Buffy was over-protective of Dawn at the age she was supposed to be. And her clothes- I teach teenagers, and it's rare to see a 15 year old dress like she's ten.
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Especially since Willow, Xander and to a lesser extent Cordy were demon fighting at around that age. -- Kashmanik, 17:42:16 08/03/05 Wed [1] (217.43.3.119)
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Dawn was written to act younger -- MTsFan, 18:03:38 08/03/05 Wed [1] (205.175.225.24)
and, yes, her wardrobe was scaled younger than 14-15, too. I think she had to be old enough to grasp the concept of the Key without blowing it off. It had to have more of an impact on her than a young child would be able to feel. Young teen are self-conscious enough to be impacted by the realization that they're different. 8-9's, not so much. She also had to have trouble dealing with it in season 5. She couldn't be much older or she would have had a mature reaction to being supernatural.
I am really glad she had a chance to grow up in season 7. I am also on record as saying that should have happened in season 6 while there was still time to make the character acceptable for a spinoff.
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Re: Would Dawn have been a better character if she'd been younger? -- silveragent, 18:44:51 08/03/05 Wed [1] (63.199.111.93)
Dawn was basically the ordinary girl replacement for Uber-Willow. If anything she should have been OLDER, or MT been allowed to act her age instead of older.
Willow had always been the: 1. sounding board for Buffy; 2. ordinary girl made more confident being Buffy's pal/ally; 3. the ordinary girl alternative to Buffy as well.
By S4's end, Willow was not ordinary in any way. Thus, you had to have a character like Dawn (just as the show only worked with Giles as the hub connecting the spoke-like characters). So Dawn was needed.
She should have been allowed to grow up, too soon and too fast, in S6, as a real-life as opposed to supernatural consequence of Buffy shucking her responsibilities. Even better if Dawn/Buffy had a reversal, where Dawn was the responsible/mature one at age 16 and Buffy the irresponsible one.
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I wished that Connor was Buffy's brother and Dawn was Angel's daughter. -- Christian, 20:14:16 08/03/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)
That would have been something to see.
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No she wasn't -- Eurydice, 20:36:48 08/03/05 Wed [1] (141.154.23.82)
She was brought in so Buffy would have somebody to be responsible for. Nothing shakes you out of self-centered childhood like having somebody depend on you, although Buffy sure put up a good fight. And Dawn never performed any of the duties of "ordinary girl" Willow - she was never a sounding board or a confidante or a friend - she was always Buffy's little sister who needed to be protected, which was the whole point about chloroforming her and sending her away with Xander in End of Days.
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Dawn would have been a better character if she'd been written better -- Eurydice, 21:23:29 08/03/05 Wed [1] (141.154.23.82)
I know, it's sounds snarky, but I'm serious. The problem started when they changed the character's age to accomodate MT but didn't change the way they'd written her - that pretty much established her as an immature whiner. And once the Glory arc was over, the writers didn't seem to know what to do with Dawn. She continued being "the burden" with everybody having to watch out for her and feed her and babysit her and worry about her grades and her kleptomania.
The whole thing became even more ludicrous as MT grew to be about twice SMG's size. After a while the natural question became "Why doesn't that big strapping girl get off her ass and do some chores?" Given the writers earlier neglect, I think season 7 was too date to develop Dawn, whatever her age. MT had some beautiful moments, but then there was the idiocy of Dawn suddenly going mini-Watcher and being able to read Sumerian or Ancient Turkish or whatever, and when that didn't work, they made her content with just being normal.
So I guess, yeah - if the writers were going to use Dawn as they did, it would have been best if she'd been a lot younger.
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Which begs the question "why didn't he kill her off in season 5"? -- Christian, 22:10:37 08/03/05 Wed [1] (209.240.205.62)
Still could have wrote his "depression" storyline and it is not like he doesn't re-use plots ie: Resurrecting a "dead" character.
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Well, if he resurrected Dawn, then she'd just be back again ;-) -- Eurydice, 22:54:32 08/03/05 Wed [1] (141.154.23.82)
That would have been another way to take the story - to have Buffy follow Giles' judgement and let Dawn die for the greater good. Then Buffy would have been depressed and felt guilty, and resented Giles and the whole Watcher/Slayer culture, and been angry and who knows what. Or more likely, she'd have gone catatonic and never come out of it. I wonder what that would have done for Buffy's likability ratings...heroes don't look so heroic if they're willing to let their baby sisters die.
Or maybe Glory or the knights could have killed Dawn, but since Buffy was ready to kick the crap out of them for even threatening Dawn, I don't think there'd have been any more story mileage out of having her dead.
But I think the main reason for Dawn not dying in season 5 is that her job as "the burden of adult responsibility" didn't really start until season 6. Before that, she was the Key and the target of the Big Bad, which was more about Buffy's responsibility as a Slayer rather than a sister/mom. I don't think there's a problem with a character representing a concept like that, I just think the character should be written as a 3-dimensional person at the same time - for me, they didn't do that with Dawn.
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Very true! -- Christian, 08:06:23 08/04/05 Thu [1] (209.240.205.62)
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Re: Would Dawn have been a better character if she'd been younger? -- Chuckit25, 02:12:21 08/04/05 Thu [1] (65.31.232.191)
Drive by post from ATS other board and the slow march of death by chocolate and candle smoke that is this annual event for an entire month--I actually lose too much weight in the diet of death and masked fire dances with my welding arc (sculpture).
I notice that the blue board also enjoys talking about characters, writing fic, etc and so I offer a few fizzling sparks to let all of the boardies know I think of you and still enjoy reading your posts and talking about new ideas and perceptions about BTVS and ATS.
(I only lurk here even though I know BTVS better than ATS, but I found such a welcoming home at ATS, I had to follow the travails of Angel as a vigil for my wife who died and couldn't. Anyway, as you may know, back in the day only Spuffy as the truth of love and passion was an acceptable post and I simply didn't dare to explain why I didn't--I never saw the great love affair because my interpretations of soulless vampires makes that simply an impossiblity to have direct experience of love itself--rather than as a reflection of some memory of a dead host to even know what direct emotional experience is--it's what creates their hunger denying this specific completeness or "enough" being imposed as dying flesh's gross pain or fear is the experience of spirit yet is directly denied them and this makes them evil. This neutral spirit is introduce into a dying mortal having great pain or fear and this is the sustenance of form the spirit encounters as the new means to the material for itself now in mystified flesh. It's why vampires feed on blood for the vampire *spirit* to have the intensity of our greatest emotions on which to connect and feed it's own existence, but remain these emotions belong to their prey and are therefore a reflection;it is simply not their own. Their host's memories can't change to new experience because the person is dead and that is why vamps don't reflect and they know only unsatisfied hunger and thirst. My opinion of Jossian vampires, which isn't anything against Spike, I just never understood why Spike is this anomaly when he seemed to act pretty regular to me --other than a declaration he is.
I think I saw him conform to what Joss made any other vampire do (until he subjugates himself to go get a soul as if out of love rather than his personal agenda that is oft offered) and even go through what would seem "normal" for such a horror of completely non-caring brought to consciousness of another's sufferieng and conscience mixed in the confusion of the First misusing him. Anyway, I should post on my home board, but BTVS was first and you have the homepage on this laptop. I make these long horrid posts as I vent chaos as standard contra to that of a contained life generally.
HI YOU GUYS!! I purely have missed you all. Greetings to you all-- hope only health and happiness are yours: I hope to know if its okay to even post here now, especially since I am going to disappear for another coupla weeks as soon as I hit "deliver"--hee. I do beg every forgiveness for not posting on ATS--I hope Dd's ankle is okay, I hope that Gretch's chompers are snark ready, Lewis knows that camels are dragons and the female principle and those heady cephalopods have a sucker suckered every minute and Salty--God, I am sorry that in the midst of everything being torn up and uprooted that your mum was taken from you. Be well!
All of you here, tango on, you are all beautiful.
As fo rDawn, the topic. Dawn had to be 14 because this was the age before Buffy was called. Buffy's material blood gave her the ability to take form into everything that Buffy wished she was in the greatest moment of her despair when she found out she really might fail to defeat this goddess, she really needed to live and to live when being safe and happy was just "normal" and she was doing what she had to be do but failing didn't count as the end of the world; she wanted to be relieved of what it is to be forced to grow up, ready or not, and that her place in the universe was to be ever more burdened and saddened with that job merely a door to taking on what her mom had done-the shock of it's reality no differently than one isn't partly pregnant. Buffy also thought she would fail in everyway even as the messenger died in her hands and she couldn't stop either his death or the message. She also would never be the daughter she believed her mother wanted.
Buffy was a single child and probably craved a sibling in times of loneliness that would be great company and fun and would make her feel good because she could show her things and feel smart and experienced, but still wouldn't have to really take care of her. She could just forget about her when her other interests captured her fancy and she would always be the favored one because she was first. This sibling would be her confidante and they could protect each other's secrets.
The truth of a sibling is competition for mom's attention and responsibility because of experience, secrets were weaspons of blackmail and even sharing the resources and spotlight would be expected because maturity is expected--specialness is suddenly not singular, either.
A daughter at fourteen, was not a slayer, was an undeveloped girl, was still obedient, a decent student without great effort, focus or interest, had "nice" attached to most nouns. This daughter was the one Mom would choose and love forever, the daughter who was the apple of her eye, no trouble and the key to the universe. Absolute, unquestioning love given the pefect girl who wasn't the slayer, who hadn't been awakened to the darkness of her truth, her mysteries, her costly mistakes, her failures and insecurities that tortured her too private to share. DAwn was always going to be the blush of the new day for Mom and a thing imposed upon her as no longer the single child at the center of the universe. Dawn required Buffy to realize she had the duty to protect her even from whatever she was, she would be this ideal, even to Buffy of all the wishes she had for herself before it all changed and went bad. Even if she succeeded in keeping one person safe, she would ultimately and actually really die and there would be no choice about that. No one could save her from that ultimate destiny.
Buffy realized truly that whatever problems she ever wanted to ask, the problems were going to come whether she was ready to ask the questions or not and she wouldn't know what to choose, what to do to solve her own paradoxes.
I am sympathetic to the creation of spirit children, the greatest ideal made out of the deepest mystery of being or of spiritual despair, but I mostly think maturity requires killing *them* off and dealing with the process of mourning or of these children taking on a life of their own, which is rather what Joss did with both spirit children, Dawn and Connor.
Buffy's *perception* kept Dawn as some burden and whiny child. Xander exposed the truth that she had been watching and studying her role models all along and had grown up right "over" their noses...their perceptions. So being so big, as a little sister, probably works, in the long run from some vantage point.
I have to admit, Buffy being so tiny is simply so unusual in this day and age in any venue. With Michelle being so statuesque, perhaps, she is just supposed to, somehow, just be able to handle herself. I knlow my daughter will always be my little girl, so maybe it works like that for a mom, too, no matter how proud or friendly the relationship is.
WE do know that Buffy's blood makes the key's manifestation into flesh her daughter, not her sister, even though her need for self as "fourteen forever" and sibling--she didn't ask for this and thus avoids responsibility for the feelings that enable her to create this spirit child because her desire is really to have not have even heard of those things that "just happen" and overwhelm or have bad consequences, let alone dealing with "complicated" sex, so Mom makes the babies and that means Daddy never left or was untrue to HER, not just her mother, even if the truth really is the shape of herself as the spirit child, right?
chuckit25
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Re: Would Dawn have been a better character if she'd been younger? -- Rosie, 11:42:10 08/04/05 Thu [1] (170.97.67.91)
"I never thought it made much sense that Buffy was over-protective of Dawn at the age she was supposed to be. And her clothes- I teach teenagers, and it's rare to see a 15 year old dress like she's ten."
Of course it made sense. Dawn was her responsibility. After Joyce's death, Dawn, in a way, became her child. And no matter how old a child is, a parent never stops being protective of his or her child.
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Re: For me she was a one season charachter who should have been -- keeping faith, 05:16:16 08/07/05 Sun [1] (81.148.59.149)
Killed off at the end of season 5.
It would have made that ridclous episode meaningfull other than the poor cop out which it was.
Anyway I am digressing after that the writers did not know what to do with her. So she just hung around.
Then in S7 With Geller going Joss tentavly tried to set up a Dawn show. She even had her own little scooby gang. That idea sunk like a dead fish with both execs and fans so.
All in all She was fine for S5 but should not have been kept after that which seemed to me more like Joss was having a back up plan in case Geller bolted.
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