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Date Posted: Saturday, October 15, 01:32:28am
Author: Lij
Author Host/IP: adsl-108-67-95-18.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net / 108.67.95.18
Subject: FRINGE - Subject 9

That was for me near the best damn FRINGE ever! And it was for me even before Peter returned.

Had a few ideas about Peter's return:

Peter's path calls to mind a metaphorical Christ-like figure.

His 3 years of ministry was in the OT (Old Time/Old Testament).

Peter serves as a messianic figure for the NT (New Time/New Testament) for which his sacrifice in the Machine gained a salvation for the worlds. His resurrection from the dead then occurs in the place of his younger death.

Now will their be three people who will deny Peter - Olivia, Walter, and ? (Broyles? or Astrid? or ???)?

Lastly, does this "second coming" trigger the appearance of the Apocalypse - a war even greater than what the first three seasons even contemplated?

At the same time it should be pointed out the line which Walter spoke taken from John 15, "Without Me, You Can Do Nothing," and the stigmata on Walter's hands. I thought that to be powerful imagery but find it difficult to reconcile with Peter as a messiah. Except perhaps to point out the obvious that we are talking about the father, the son, and the .... and the who? Who would be the spirit? I might guess it is the resurrected Peter, but I am not sure. Olivia would seem to be the best answer as to who is the spirit, as she represents Peter's love.

FRINGE does seem to be mixing (blending?) the metaphor between the father, Walter, and the son, Peter. Plus there is the idea that the father, Walter, and the spirit, Olivia, will come to deny the son, Peter, because they do not recognize him. But then there is the point after the resurrection when Jesus was not recognized by his disciples. So perhaps they are not denying him, just not recognizing him until they see his wounds. So what are Peter's wounds. The one to his heart because the love of his life does not know him? Ahh... could by lyrical as well as metaphorical.


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[> Re: FRINGE - Subject 9 -- Chani, Saturday, October 15, 08:45:44am (81-65-192-252.rev.numericable.fr/81.65.192.252)

It had a few good moments thanks to John Noble and the guy who played Cameron, but I was annoyed by all the obvious explanations about the new verse (I wish they would give us the info in a more subtle way)and, above all, how predictable it was. From the first scene on, everybody and their uncle could guess that the bowl of blue energy was Peter returning.

BTW it was a big nod to Terminator (hence the name of Cameron James, I guess)!!!!

And I'm pretty sure that they played "wink at" with the cop's name, given that Lieutenant Daniels was the character that Lance Reddick played in The Wire.

And since Walter was like a Father figure to the kids he experimented on, nice touch about what Cameron told Olivia "make him forget me".


But I really like it better when FRINGE does standalones, especially over there.


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[> I think you are missing the mysteries of FRINGE which we once saw in Buffy -- Lij, Saturday, October 15, 10:33:11pm (adsl-99-50-225-105.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net/99.50.225.105)

Originally Posted by The Question
....and what Broyles says to Olivia at the end of the episode in response to her worry that without those memories he'll become a killer.

“At the risk of sounding sentimental, I always thought there were people who leave an indelible mark on your soul, An imprint that can never be erased.”

Coupled with the Soul Magnets fiasco I think we can reasonably assume that when a character talks about a soul, they aren't just being religious.

I think they remember Peter and everything that happened before somewhere deep down. That's why went looking for them, and Olivia "just had a feeling" that the Blue Energy wasn't trying to hurt them and that it wanted their help. And given Olivia's dormant cortexiphan abilities and the manner of Peter's return, coupled with the strong bond they've always had. Olivia is probably going to be crucial in this process, or may become the only person who Can remember.

Or for that matter, perhaps the only person willing to open their mind enough to be Able to access those lost memories. Because it seems to me like they aren't going to trust this random man with this insane story. And when his explanation involves The Machine, it might even be taken out of the hands of people who knew him before. I wouldn't be surprised if they Patriot Acted his butt into solitary confinement after debriefing him.

P.S.:: Once Peter realizes what has happened, you think his fling with Bolivia is gonna be among the things he tells Olivia (or anyone)? Or is he gonna cross his fingers, hope she never finds out and pretend it never happened?


Exactly. I should have mentioned Broyles' statement. Broyles' statement leads one to believe that while a person forgets someone who changed your life's outlook, you should still have that outlook in your life. This might be why without Peter, Walter is still controllable by Olivia. And it could even be a factor in his newfound desire to go out in the field in this episode.

How so then is it when that fogotten person comes back into your life. The first thought might be one of comfort with the person. But it's difficult to see comfort in the experiences of Walter in the first 3 episodes. However, Walter in his neurotic state would not be comforted by a 'vision' which threatens to send him from a manageable neurosis into a psychosis. Walter's mind was just not ready for Peter. But Olivia most evidently is.

I think that Olivia will be the one who is most disconcerted by Peter's return. She will have feelings for him which she cannot understand because they have no basis to her logical, detective-based FBI mind. The evidence is within her, but I feel that this Olivia does trust herself somewhat more than herself in the paradox. That too might be Peter's gift to her.

I think it will play out somewhat in a tiered fashion with Olivia being most 'sensitive,' then Walter, and finally Astrid, who I would use to represent those more casual relationships to Peter. There may be four, maybe five tiers of understanding for them concerning Peter, call them familiarity, faith, trust, and recognition. The first I see as familiarity, and I think Olivia has already exhibited that aspect. She has had dreams of Peter and has sketched him. It was necessary that she find some aspect of that visage as familiar in order that she progress to the next aspect, faith.

And it is faith that Olivia expresses at the end of this episode even as Walter is yelling for Cameron to destroy the E-M field. Olivia has faith not only in her own feeling toward this visage of Peter but in the visage itself. But even faith cannot lead to absolute trust and it is left to Peter to gain that trust by his actions. But once trust is established recognition may not be far behind. And yes, I too see that it is Olivia who comes to each stage first, and so too it is Olivia who helps guide Walter and the 'Astrids' towards their recognition of Peter. Walter by all rights should come around first, then Astrid, Broyles, etc...

And there may be a fifth step which is memory recovery. But I do not see that occurring with just anyone, I think Olivia is the primary one and Walter, secondarily. I cannot see that all memories of happenstances are recovered but more memories of feelings, of their love for each other, of the love between father and son. Nothing else is important for the characters, and it leaves Peter with knowledge of paradoxical events which still puts him in the center of the action on FRINGE.


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[> [> The mystery was not what got me into FRINGE -- Chani, Sunday, October 16, 05:19:04am (81-65-192-252.rev.numericable.fr/81.65.192.252)

I was there for the characters, and above all for the father/son relationship.

Also I didn't like the Olivia/Peter thing last year, so I'm wary of anything using it as a key element in the mystery.

I have watched many brillantly written tv shows in the last 7 years, so I have become very hard to please, I guess, and FRINGE has always been extremely uneven in terms of writing. A few episodes are brillant but that's it. I don't think this "Subject 9" was brillant at all, regardless of "the mystery".

Also, I'm intrigued by The Observers but since LOST, I learnt my lesson and try not to be too involved in mystery...

So yes, I enjoy FRINGE but I notice that the episodes that I love the most are usually stand alone episodes.


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[> I bet you even missed the Buffy reference at the beginning in the lab - by Astrid. -- Lij, Sunday, October 16, 01:52:49am (adsl-99-50-225-105.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net/99.50.225.105)


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[> Re: FRINGE - Subject 9 -- Lij, Sunday, October 16, 04:26:32am (adsl-99-50-225-105.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net/99.50.225.105)

'Fringe' report: The beauty of the new season's storytelling, and what it means for the future
by Ken Tucker

The frequently heart-breaking, beautifully romantic yet action-packed season of Fringe continues, with the series moving along on great swells of emotion, as though trying to reach the peaks of the Mozart that Walter was listening to in ¡°One Night in October.¡± This week, the hour titled ¡°Subject 9¡å returned to the series¡¯ most potent, everlasting element of its mythology: the Cortexiphan experiments conducted more than two decades ago on ¡°37 innocent children,¡± including Olivia (¡°Olive¡±) Dunham. Oh, and in part because we saw the writing credits ¡ª showrunners Jeff Pinkner and J.H. Wyman plus Akiva Goldsman ¡ª we knew we probably were in for some fundamental shifts in the season¡¯s main plot line, the search for Peter Bishop, and we sure got ¡®em.
I¡¯m going to leave the close reading of ¡°Subject 9¡å to Jeff Jensen and his recap. (Have fun, comrade, with double-gloved Nina!) Here, I¡¯d like to write more broadly about this episode and the season thus far. The apparitions of Peter that both Walter and Olivia had been experiencing this week manifested themselves as a blue charge of amorphous energy. Walter has a theory that it relates to astral projection, which reminds him of experiments he did with William Bell 25 years ago during the Cortexiphan trials. In this Fringe universe, Olivia recalls having set fire to the Florida building but seems less psychically damaged by what she went through ¡ª unlike Cameron James, subject number nine in the trials, whose life has been cursed. When anxious, he ¡°sends metal flying,¡± he tells Olivia and Walter when they visit him, and he¡¯s bitter and depressed about the lonely life he¡¯s led.

That¡¯s just one level of the story-telling. An equally important one is the follow-up on last week¡¯s psychiatric evaluation of Walter. Discovering that St. Claire¡¯s Hospital is seeking Olivia¡¯s opinion as to whether Walter should be re-admitted for further evaluation, Walter is moved to leave his lab for the first time in three years. This placed him in the midst of the action and face-to-face with Cameron James, and the old guilt stole over the older man. He¡¯s still not without guile ¡ª he tries to mollify Olivia¡¯s questions about her youth by assuring her, ¡°You were always the strongest; you were always the favorite.¡± But we are also told that Olivia ran away from Bishop and Bell¡¯s house of pharmaceutical horrors. This is an Olivia who¡¯s suppressed a great deal. With immense yet discreet skill, ¡°Subject 9¡å returned us to Fringe¡¯s richest subjects: Children lost (both literally and psychologically), children loved too little and too much.


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