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Date Posted: 13:06:05 09/16/01 Sun
Author: Peggy posted by me
Author Host/IP: 206.97.65.178
Subject: this an attack on American was posted at salty dreams

Author Comment
Neverkill
Registered User
Posts: 1
(9/14/01 12:53:24 am)
A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This seems to be the most read forum and I apologize in advance for posting here, but I was contemplating joining this group and looking through some of the posts over the past few days and I just don't know. I am truly bewildered at the level of ignorance that seems to prevail over wisdom. Some so called poems, which will remain nameless, I find reprehensible. I don't know if should even bother participating in such a stifled environment.

Maybe we should all wake up to the fact that this attack, as horrific and unjustified as it was, did not come without provocation. US foreign policy has actively engaged in relentless bombing campaigns of civilians all over the world. The death toll brought about by our ignorance far outweighs the death toll of this tragic event.

Nearly 1 million children have died in Iraq as a result of US/UK continued bombings and a devasting embargo that punishes people not terrorists. I have seen no outrage. I have seen no tears shed. Thousands of East Timorese have been devasted by the Indonesian military using US guns. An 11 year old girl Palestinian girl was killed by Israeli soldiers on Sep 12 as an addition to over 500 people in Palestine over the past few months, most of whom were civilians, many of them children. The US is the largest arms manufacturer in the world. The US gave 43 million to the Taliban last week. We do not care. The bombing of Bosnia killed countless civilians in a 78 day long campaign of terror from the skies. These are but few examples of US terrorism.

I find it disturbing that most of the people in this forum seem completely ignorant to what really goes on in the world today, and an even greater lack of knowledge of any real history. The unfortunate reality is that this unprecented terrorist attack was brought on by our ignorance as human beings to really stand for freedom the world over. Ask yourself why none of you have questioned why this happened in the first place. Do you really think that it comes from jelousy?

Now Americans will sit idly by and watch the killing continue, perhaps feeling a sense of gratification in revenge, when in reality all of your information is gleaned, and apparently has been gleaned by the very same commercial media that has covered the truths of the world for far too long. I hope and pray that you all will listen to the voices who have been trying to reach you to no avail. Turn off your CNN and explore the endless documentation that exists in any alternative media outlet. Media where journalism still counts. Find the debate! Prove me wrong!

Killing will not bring peace, it will validate the very purpose of this attack. I beg all of you to live in love and yes, to understand what this wake up call is saying. We can no longer hide the blood on our hands. We cannot be free and innocent when we kill and maim in the name of America or Capitalism. We cannot use our ignorance as a justification for innocence. Go with love or be consumed in war.

Do not denigrate those who have died. Do not buy the party line of the warmongers who masquerade as leaders, who can offer no more than a pledge to "hunt them down", who have supported their own acts of terror for their own economic interest, who will take another 40 billion dollars of your money in the name of more war. I pray for the victims of this tragedy. I pray for the victims to come. This event is far from over, but this event is the point where we decide either to evolve or die.

truly,
Neverkill

Jean Lewis
Orchid Lady
Posts: 757
(9/14/01 1:49:04 am)

Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It stopped Hitler, it stopped the maiming and killing in Japan. Sometimes force has to be used to overcome evil. Other people are intelligent and well read and have a different opinion - that is democracy. You are not the only one who is well informed or who has a conscience. If cowards who kill hide then they have to be found. I too mourn the killing of children and the innocent and trust it will be minimal if at all. What is the alternative to sit and let it happen again?! The natural human reaction to death, hurt and sorrow is confusion, grief and then anger. Do not have what you doubtless see as righteous anger. People have to let their sorrow out and I believe their comments to be genuine. If you can't accept what other people say here then you are right, perhaps it isn't the place for you.

groriter
Registered User
Posts: 751
(9/14/01 1:52:08 am)
Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never:

We respect your belief and right to post it. I do hope you will, as a poet, come here and post. Everyone is welcome even though we may not agree with your philosophy.

BTW, I will continue to write as I see and believe.

zJared
Anasazi/moderator
Posts: 1962
(9/14/01 3:01:20 am)

Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neverkill, I invite you to post here and we will respect your views. I will tell you, though, that this is not a political forum and it's purpose is not to solve the world's problems. We gather here to share poetry which sometimes does reflect the world that we live in. More often it's about, love, the beauties of nature and the joys of forming words into pleasing forms. I can see that you do know the world and what is happening there but if you wish to debate these things, invite people to a discussion forum. Welcome!

Jared

egyptsin
Registered User
Posts: 122
(9/14/01 5:36:17 am)

Community Supporter

Your Ignorance Lies in Your Generalizations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Neverkill,

Your name belies your purpose.

Neither does your present research into the depth and diversity of this forum reflect the clarity and intellect with which you have forwarded your argument on the global perpetration of hostility.

I am in full agreement with your expression of disgust over the shallow and inconsiderate opinions expressed by some members of this community, but as your idealistic mind must certainly be aware of, to protect one's own pacifism, to be a conscientious objector, one must also recognize and accept that those with other opinions will not only often be one's neighbors, but also those whom one's own pacifism inevitably will protect and allow to express--in freedom--such contrary ideals.

Thus, I do not see any of those expressing opinions here in the written word (regardless of import) as criminals equal to those who chose to exercise their personal opinions by piloting hundreds of trapped souls to their deaths. Souls who were not even endowed with the dignity to know their own deaths were imminent, to know their own murders were to serve as the instrument to the compounded murder of untold thousands of ignorant civilians (notice, I eschewed the use of the word "innocent" which should please your Lordship). Nor do I see the diverse statements of people from all walks of life (and surely races, creeds, and sexualities) upon this forum as dastardly in any way as those compatriots of these murders (and the term "murder" is one you must accept as fact, no matter how badly its profound connotation sullies your magnificent gown of objectivist purity) whom your universal call for amnesty and pacifism seeks to protect. Will you grant such amnesty to these individuals on Salty? An amnesty proportional in degree to their offenses?

I will shortly leave Salty Dreams for personal reasons after only a brief stint here, Neverkill, but I will grant them that amnesty, and I am grateful to each registered member here who may have granted me amnesty at one time or another when I offended them, as I am not divine, but an imperfect human for whom "to err" is the "ergo sum." And in my cautious and careful evaluation of Salty and my dalliance through her multi-faceted avenues, I will leave with a wholesome feeling of love, overcome by a profound sense of artistry and point-source originality. A profound sense of the brand of thought that begins movements like conscientious objectivism itself.

In short, my dear Neverkill, you have erred grievously in your blanket condemnation of a community in a manner that seems to have been motivated more for your own self-aggrandizement and moralistic righteousness than for any constructive and well-meaning transformative purpose. By eliciting my response, you needn't dare to claim that your message has heightened my own and others' awareness. The awareness has been here all along; it is you who have not taken the time to look for it. I refer you to any of Webology's posts in the poetry forum, to countless other members in the various forums at Salty Dreams, and to my own postings in Salty Dreams, particularly in response to the heading "God Bless and Protect Us All" in "Naked Lunch," regardless of your religious persuasion, as I myself am an agnostic.

Indeed, the moderator, zJared, explains well that this is not a political forum but a poetic one. Many here assume identities in their poetry that have no relation to their personal viewpoints or ontologies. Such is the hallmark of every artist and art. If you do not recognize that, than it is you who needs to alleviate your ignorance and dwell upon the works of such philosophers as Jean-Paul Sartre, or perhaps, even the musings of Aristotle, the idiosyncrasies of Graham Greene. Your missive seems to suggest our ranks are profuse with ignorance and depauperate of intelligence. My verbal SAT was a perfect 800. How was yours? Release some semblance of a profile, post your e-mail, and I'll forward you the scores from the College Board. I'm a student at UCLA. I rejected Cornell to stay in L.A. Next year I decide whether to reject Harvard or Brown for a Ph.D in Classics, or as yet undetermined universities for a Ph.D in science or an M.D. Care to set-up a private forum to hash-out this debate? I'll "fight" for my new fellow artists, if such is your intent, and I am sure there many with grander credentials than my own in our ranks approaching 600 members, with more adding every day. I encourage you to become one, to add diversity, not dissent. I encourage you to write poetry, instead of attack in ways that require members like myself to make private revelations in order to safeguard the reputations of beloved friends and artists.

It is also worthy of note that for all your marvelous historical knowledge, you side-step a simple fact that no rhetoric can circumvent: This act of terrorism was unique because of the instrument of terrorism it employed, and the ability for each of these INSTRUMENTS to include the murder of hundreds of civilian innocents in the process of murdering thousands more. Thus, Neverkill, these killings were unique and singular in relation to any "that were Everkilled" before. I had two cousins (genetic half-sisters, being daughters of my mother's identical twin sister) who worked in Lower Manhattan and could have been killed in Tuesday's murders. I have a friend, Steve, who works for the Hudson's offices in lower Manhattan who also luckily escaped. Nowhere on this forum will you find me mongering war, hatred, or even mentioning "revenge" or any sentiments close to it. At the same time, I do not condemn the sentiments of those of different philosophies who would legitimately seek to eradicate terrorist organizations--murderers--to prevent the destruction of thousands upon millions of innocent and non-innocent lives across the world. Could you say as much, I wonder, if death from these attacks had touched you so closely? Would you remain as objective as I and others on this forum who have probably experienced worse than I? Would you still attack those who are demanding justice as much out of fear for their own safety as out of anger against others? I wonder, and I wouldn't believe your proclamation, in any case, unless you had stood under the crumbling Towers with mangled heart valves and spleens raining bile on your cheeks and linens. A poetry forum is a place for poetry, not prosaic angst. If you can't figure out if you want to post here, don't trouble us with your deliberations--we could care less and have quite a large enough pool of talent as it is, which is growing all the time.

I am unsure of your plans, Mr. Neverkill, but mine include deferred admission to graduate school as I spend next year with the Peace Corps in Africa. I'll post my recruiting number for Salty in December, too, if you would like. Thus, it is not your message that I condemn, but your delivery, and your tone. Do not think that because you are the President of CALPIRG at your university, director of your Amnesty International Chapter, or dabbler in Anti-Defamation Leagues, that you can march on here and tell everybody how they ought to write and behave. Those actions are unsuitable--be you street-walker or poet laureate. I grant your message so much time and verbiage only because I respect your articulation and your instincts, which seem inherently well-meaning.

I'm sorry to diffuse your admirable effort to insult many good people with your high rhetoric here at Salty Dreams, but the greater your intellect, the greater your training, the truer the admonition: "Go pick on someone you own size." Otherwise, write some poetry (the creative caveat by which Salty Dreams exists) that demonstrates YOU are WORTHY to be accepted AS A POET by this venerable and pioneering on-line poetry forum--or go hide like a coward behind your anonymity. Until then, you are but an ideal that goes "bump" in the night. I fear this is not your "aestas climacterica."

Good Day to You, Sir.

John D.H.


Edited by: egyptsin at: 9/14/01 5:50:36 am

FairEllen
Flying Free
Posts: 878
(9/14/01 6:01:36 am)

Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neverkill,

We are a writing forum. We are from all backgrounds, cultures and walks of life. Even so, we like to think we are of a kindred spirit because of our interest in writing. And we sometimes comfort each other in times of distress.

Our purpose is not to discuss or argue politics and governmental concerns, even though now and then someone comes along and encourages or provokes it. There are political forums available out there for those who wish to engage in such discussions. I would suggest CNN or one of the other broadcasting company bulletin boards.

Today is a National Day of Prayer here. And I leave this board now to offer my own prayer for comfort.

FairEllen




thewhitetree
Registered User
Posts: 86
(9/14/01 6:51:45 am)
Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judge not lest you be judged and found wanting in God's eyes.

Egyptsin, Jared, Ellen, Jean all said this far better than I could. You will find that to change minds you must first engage in dialogue, a dialogue which respects those with whom you wish to speak.

You have launced a diatribe, well-meaning or not.

For me it is not for I to judge the hearts of those who post here, I can only bare my own. Poetry serves many needs in those who write. Over the last several days for I and many other US citizans it has been a way to process our fear, anger, sorrow or despair in the best way we know.

Stay or go it matters not to me. It may be your loss for all you know.

Tree

groriter
Registered User
Posts: 763
(9/14/01 7:26:16 am)
Re: Your Ignorance Lies in Your Generalizations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egyptsin:

May I be the first to applaud with a standing ovation. Very well said. I stand beside you in your excellent post.

Good luck in your choice of PhD or MD. Whatever your devotion and descision, Please make it according to your soul & not to the following of some academic suggestion. We need more men & women in these pursuits that follow their heartfelt dreams rather than stepping to some educational institution's mutterings.

I never regreted the fact that I paved my own pursuits for PhD in both Math & Economics. But I hardly ever maintained any reverance than to my own reasons and philosophies.

Again, thanks for sharing your words and feelings.

Jean Lewis
Orchid Lady
Posts: 759
(9/14/01 7:35:11 am)

Re: Your Ignorance Lies in Your Generalizations.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good on ya John!

Tasha1
Salty Feline
Posts: 5786
(9/14/01 6:55:01 pm)

Community Supporter

be you street-walker or poet laureate..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bump

egyptiandoll
Pharaohs doll
Posts: 1478
(9/14/01 8:03:32 pm)

Re: be you street-walker or poet laureate..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





i think this person works for bin larden ,,,
and i am not going to "candy coat" this comment with
a touch of nice hue


you know what bud "Neverkill" you can see good and bad in all things
but i tell you one thing people said what was done in the
death camps were ok for this reason or that reason
and that was so wrong to over look the things that happened
in WWII in the deathcamps, so don't try to lay a trip on the people of the USA
we wont take it and
so to me this is all bull shit
and if you don't like it here please by all means go someplace
else i wont kiss your feet to keep you here

and ps just think how many nations have been very happy
to see USA troops come in to help them stand tall
from one time or another 1, in the death camps
WWII and in WWI in Italy,,, "get real" for protection,
they stand for freedom and peace and goodness
and bud "Neverkill" the USA is still has good as it gets
bar none,,,,
it don't get no better take it or leave it ,but don't
and i repeat don't put us down
I for one wont take it
my uncle was a POW for 2years in WWII
and i guess i tell you this for him

and don't even get me started on Israel
which i think is the greatest nation on earth
i am so proud the USA stands by Israel and has for years,,,
once when i was in college this person a man
from the same land of Bin Laden said Israel
was a great wore and should be bombed off the map
in the ISU stateman's newspaper well i wrote a reply
to him,, and
i am sure he did not like what i had to say about the matter,,
I said and i repeat it now the only other place that i would
glady lay down my life and die for would be
Israel even over my USA ,,,one week went by and i started
getting emails from people on campus saying thank you
for standing up for Israel it was an essay style letter
to this evil man, he had so many days to reply back to me
but he did not have the balls to do it he just thought
no one would take up for Israel
well he thought wrong .

i still have my essay about the beloved nation of
Israel who has been threw more hell than any nation
has,,, If i can find it i will type it up just for you.
i think i still even have his comments about
Israel first being the great whore of the world and it should
be bombed out of the world,,, i tell you i was not happy
i was very mad at his comments about Israel,,,,
this is what we are dealing with people like this man
who has more hate well hate you can not even measure
with a "rod of wisdom" or anything
and i will go one step more
hell yes i think it was jelousy on bin larden 's part
and i think they are all so jealous of Israel
and the part the USA have played to protect
Israel
and i think they are jealous of the USA
remember the words of others
from WWII
(we have only awaken a sleeping Giant) about the United
States Of America) and pearl h.,,,,
bin larden has no idea what he has done not really
i hope someone gets these comments to him
his time is coming he is a evil man down to the bone
these were women and children with no guns they did not
have a chance to fight.
yellow and he sent other men to die for him nice guy.

long live Israel
long live the USA




And if you want to call me stupid come man do it, i
double dog - dare you



Edited by: egyptiandoll at: 9/14/01 8:40:54 pm

ravensilence
Registered User
Posts: 64
(9/14/01 8:12:40 pm)
Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im not sure, but to come marching into a forum, insult the people in it,
and then expect them to take you seriously is a bit of a stretch for me.

Wether you agree with the opinions expressed here is irrelevant,it is a
poetry forum, to express emotion.People are upset by the current events,
show a little bit of compassion



Neverkill
Registered User
Posts: 2
(9/14/01 8:44:10 pm)
Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What can I say. You have validated my worst fears. I apologize to those who are not consumed by hatred and are sincere with their response. For the rest of you, I can only hope that you will recognize the scourge of hatred within your own souls. If you cared about this country, you would value the people of this country. You support the death of this country by failing to understand the point of humanity. Unwillingly to deal with any of my salient points, you would rather defend your hatred. So be it. If you honestly believe that the US government will protect you from the very same people they have created, you are wrong. I wish all of you well. I hope that you can look beyond the television and the comforts your violence has afforded and realize that you have been blinded. Defenders of war will never bring peace. I dread the hard lessons we will have to learn as a result of many of your mentalities. I agree that this forum is not for political commentary, but poetry encompasses every facet of life. These are desperate times. I can't not respond to such desperate words and empty hearts. Remember that when you watch the freedoms you have so taken for granted dissappear. Remember that when you see the new victims before your eyes. In making me the enemy you prove that you can't exist without one.

Peace,
Neverkill

egyptiandoll
Pharaohs doll
Posts: 1479
(9/14/01 8:47:54 pm)

hey you are not going to start this then run away so fast
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Neverkill i hate to say this you sound like a nut

1 tell us where you are from? what country?
you let on like the USA but i guess a far away land
near bin larden
so tell us
you started this you are not going to run off now right
that would be so wrong
as wrong as you belittled us all here in your first comment




Edited by: egyptiandoll at: 9/14/01 8:52:41 pm

Hook
Registered User
Posts: 127
(9/14/01 9:05:07 pm)
Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neverkill,

The others in this forum have already tactfully addressed your little poitical diatribe, and so I will not....I'm not as nice and polite as they are.....

As for the propaganda BULLSHIT you so liberally sprew out, my opinion is that it is complete hogwash, and a simple rant from a simple mind!!!!

The American people (the U.S.A. in particular) and the American government that you so easily blaspheme have done more to ease the suffering of peoples across the globe in more tragic and global events than the rest of the world combined!!!!

Your political bullshit is nothing more than than an indictment of the very people that quite frankly keep the global economy and social equity on this planet afloat!!!!

It is ignorant people like yourself, that beg for our dollars, our blood, and our caring hearts to support the absolutelly pathetic political causes that you aspouse, alive and free to be expressed!!

Yes, there are indeed casualties of wars, and of political disagreements that occur, but we are a peaceful people that only act to both preserve, and instigate decent human treatment to ALL peoples on this planet....it is blinded, biased assholes like you that crave the very economic, social, and political support of this nation, which allows you to espouse such bullshit openly and in public!!!

My personal opinion...we may not be perfect, but YOU would never be able to even voice such innane ranting without the blood of our people defending your right to do so...so FUCK YOU!!!

HooK

zJared
Anasazi/moderator
Posts: 1980
(9/14/01 9:33:39 pm)

Re: A message to Salty Dreams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I've had enough of this one!

Jared





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