[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement:
Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor
of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users'
privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your
privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket
to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we
also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.
Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your
contribution is not tax-deductible.)
PayPal Acct: 
Feedback: 
Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):
[ Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message ]
Date Posted: 14:19:23 05/15/06 Mon
Author: 路人
Author Host/IP: pcd446010.netvigator.com / 203.218.236.10
Subject: NHK TV 訪問
http://hk.f1.page.auctions.yahoo.com/hk/auction/1111760453
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Replies:
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- 唔好呃人, 00:20:18 05/16/06 Tue [1] (n219073052220.netvigator.com/219.73.52.220)
又係張生 .................. 跟佢學野, 十個有九個都錯口型!
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- S.C., 15:50:19 05/16/06 Tue [1] (pcd356057.netvigator.com/203.218.146.57)
Dear 唔好呃人 =.="
Hello 唔好呃人... Thanks for your advice !!
Here is some information for the " mouthshape and tone quality for your reference ".. Everybody if you have questions on it.. hope it can help !!
The reference link is : http://www.saxontheweb.net/Hollingsworth/ToneQuality.html
regards,
S.C. -
www.saxophone.hk
16-05-2006
=.=" relax.......
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- a teacher, 21:57:30 05/16/06 Tue [1] (n219077000117.netvigator.com/219.77.0.117)
Dear S.C.,
The correct terms for "口型" in English is "embouchure", not "mouthshape", please please don't teach your students especially young kids to translate like this.
Many many many thanks!
Best Regards,
a teacher
P.S., "Embouchure" is a French word, be careful the pronunciation in teaching.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- S.C., 23:47:53 05/16/06 Tue [1] (pcd356057.netvigator.com/203.218.146.57)
Dear a teacher.,
ha ha.. many thanks.. =.="
regards,
S.C.
16-05-2006
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- AuTakTak, 09:31:57 05/17/06 Wed [1] (NoHost/203.223.232.211)
Seriously, I don't think there is a correct embouchure out there, especially on the internet. There are only suggestions. It is more about how your control your air and your throat posistion, I think.
If you need the pronunciation for this word, here you go, it's good to know.
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texte/Embouchure.html
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- 唔好呃人, 11:26:35 05/17/06 Wed [1] (pcd338169.netvigator.com/203.218.128.169)
Dear S.C.,
真係好! 張生終於有勇氣用番自己個名回應, 唔再係 Charlie Parker, Selmer 兄之類, 但原來張生鐘意打英文, 咁我用英文表達在下的小小意見, 寫得不好, 請勿見怪!
Of course, I know what is a correct embouchure, otherwise, how can I concluded that 9 out of 10 of your students learnt the wrong embouchure (I guess it is same as what you meant by mouthshape)!
About embouchure and saxophone information, I suggest Larry Teal's "The Art of Saxophone Playing", much better than the website you just simply copy from the Internet.
If you are serious in teaching others, would you please take courses to improve yourself to a qualified level first?
Or you keep playing with amateur and keep thinking you are the best in Hong Kong. That is stupid and somehow pathetic.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- S.C., 13:22:32 05/17/06 Wed [1] (n218103168248.netvigator.com/218.103.168.248)
Dear 唔好呃人 .. Thanks for your sharing ! (1) The Art of Saxophone Playing really is one good book - I have two books on hand now .. ha ha... (2) I don't know who are you but .. I feel you 好無禮貌 ..."唔好呃人".. I know I am not the best teacher in Hong Kong.. but...I will use my heart to teach all my student...." 唔好呃人 "...no one is 100% perfect in the world.. ha ha (3) Ok.. I am the stupid .. but....if you said me is stupid.. do you have 勇氣 go to my studio to talk with me... (4).. anyway if you feel interest .. you can go to my new sharing see see la..." This is not the best.. but.. I feel so happy all my student support me " want cry ".... > http://www.fotop.net/musicshop
regards,
S.C.
www.saxophone.hk
17/05/2006
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Victor, 00:47:21 05/18/06 Thu [1] (n219078003069.netvigator.com/219.78.3.69)
張sir... 勁!
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- S.C., 02:17:27 05/18/06 Thu [1] (pcd358243.netvigator.com/203.218.148.243)
Thanks Victor...
" Victor " have you call James .. as James not so happy this month.. You try to phone him la... " Victor ".. I will start oversea trip next month.. any saxophone accessories you need me to buy. ha ha.. my travel plan is : USA --> 上海 --> Taiwan --> Japan and last station will go Korea ... see you..
regards,
S.C.
www.saxophone.hk
18/05/2006
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- 張 sir 舊學生, 13:43:41 05/18/06 Thu [1] (pcd246224.netvigator.com/203.218.36.224)
張 sir, 雖然我都覺得果個 "唔好呃人" 係寸少少, 但佢講既野都幾係事實黎喎! 我問過你幾次你邊到學 sax, 學到什麼 level, 你無一次答我, 有一次仲發晒脾氣話唔信你可以唔跟你學呀! 老實講我之後真係對你無乜信心, 所以無再跟你學...... 我停左一陣, 跟住搵過個講到明有八級既學, 點知......佢話我口形錯, 高音死力咬, 連 tongue 都大部份用錯氣去 tongue, 我改左幾個月呀張 sir!
你果個相簿...... 我諗你係想話俾人聽你有幾好, 學生幾支持你, 話你唔好既人係話錯你. 你學生既成績, 係好勁呀, distinction! 但個個都係三級, 點解? 因為大部份對 sax 有熱誠既學生認識多左後, 都知道跟你不會有進步而選擇離開.
人地商場攪活動, 請 cookie 做嘉賓, 你又 post 乜 cookie vs 音樂堂, 我諗果幾個小朋友係你學生, 但你估個活動真係你攪架咩, 唔識既以為 cookie 係你請架添. Kenny G vs musicshop......唔明你想點.......
唉, 果幾張學員問卷, 真係好喎, 無人話你唔好, 真係唔知你自己有冇睇過架? 話你好? 邊到好呢? 話你 funny, 氣氛輕鬆, 高大有型, 活動教學, 有耐心, 上堂唔悶, 等等, 無一個話你教得好, 吹得好, 技術好既. 唉 ..................
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- S.C., 18:29:17 05/18/06 Thu [1] (n218103174172.netvigator.com/218.103.174.172)
Dear 舊學生 :
Thanks your sharing.. I don't want argument with you about the new sharing forum. You can said good or you can said not good .. " all up to you ".. ok if you angry me teached you not correct .. I can 100% said sorry to you. I really not mind ! My student can got distinction in Royal..maybe " me " really so luckly... as I don't know why the examiner so stupid can give my student high marks.. 舊學生... I am not really a good teacher. But you said.. what the function about the Cookie and Kelly.. 舊學生... this is just for hobby sharing ! As all my young student like performance .. so I give them chance to do this.. so. hope you know my meaning la.. anyway I no tell you what grade of me.. because. if I said I have FTCL.. " you will learn so happy ma "... yes yes. when you exam the grade 8 ?.. and what is your name ?...=.="
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Chiu Yan, 18:50:08 05/18/06 Thu [1] (NoHost/203.132.202.15)
Mr Cheung
Then can you tell me what professional level of saxophone are you upto? Just to let everybody know that they are wrong, IF they are wrong.
Pls tell the truth.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- 張 sir 舊學生, 19:13:28 05/18/06 Thu [1] (pcd299218.netvigator.com/203.218.89.218)
是真的, 如果你說你有 FTCL, 我真的會學得開心很多, 學錯了也不會怨你. 但如果 (唔好發我脾氣, 我只係話如果, 我根本沒有方法知道) 你連八級也沒有, 學錯了我真的怨你, 就係咁簡單!
八級! 唔好講笑, 依家攪成咁, 無番幾年都唔使諗.......
仲有, 我諗我唔會睇錯掛! "My student can got distinction in Royal", 我睇到果三張成績都係 Trinty 既, 你連自己學生考乜都唔知!
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- S.C., 23:33:02 05/18/06 Thu [1] (n218103174172.netvigator.com/218.103.174.172)
ha ha.. thanks...=.="
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Joe, 23:52:52 05/18/06 Thu [1] (n219077145054.netvigator.com/219.77.145.54)
誤人子弟
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- c.s, 00:06:13 05/19/06 Fri [1] (cm222-166-160-4.hkcable.com.hk/222.166.160.4)
講乜都無謂，sc最好起youtube post一段自己既演奏就乜野都證明晒。係龍係蛇一睇就見晒。當然啦，咁樣自揭底牌，唔係個個得。不過係唔得既，就永遠都抬唔起頭做人。
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Dave, 10:04:42 05/19/06 Fri [1] (NoHost/202.73.1.98)
I am not a student from SC and I just want to share my opinion.
Mr. SC Cheung, I think everyone in this forum want to know more your musical background. I know .... cert doesn't represent anything if U really have 實力 in saxophone. However, can U tell more about your related musical background? for example, Where have you learnt before?你邊到學? 師承who? Any performance experience?
If U have grade of Sax, why don't U let everybody know?
I'm still a learner in Sax, for me, I really want to know more background from my tutor, I think that's the point and question from most of the people in this forum.......
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Li Lo Mei, 23:12:23 05/19/06 Fri [1] (n220246042179.netvigator.com/220.246.42.179)
其實SC你真係唔值得可憐，你搵食都唔駛走來呢度吹噓自己呀，咁多好的教師都唔駛在這裡自己吹噓都收足學生，唯獨你不自量力，有無聽過有麝自然香？明唔明其中道理？做咁多小動作公開問候學生?好心你係真心就私下email啦，你咁做真係好低能好令人反胃。英文唔好唔緊要，肯虛心學習就係啦，但係真係唔掂就打中文啦，你言談表達邊度似為人師表呀，你Ｄ英文及表達能力真係比你個樣仲要衰呀！音樂玩得好唔好唔係靠把口講架，好心你做好比人聽／睇啦。咁多人和舊生講衰你就好心反省啦，有冇聽過面係人地比既但架係自己掉呢?
Li Lo Mei!!! (呢三個字自己譯送比你！）
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- charlie parker, 00:18:50 05/20/06 Sat [1] (n219077115098.netvigator.com/219.77.115.98)
我跟張sir 學緊野(2年), 他教得好過james, 朱穎恆, tomlee,
起碼跟去學到野...你班友好冇品, 學唔到野就屈人,
唔好再屈佢!
www.saxophone.hk
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- 路人, 01:44:48 05/20/06 Sat [1] (n219077080066.netvigator.com/219.77.80.66)
charlie parker 又黎, 又係果幾句, 同一堆字已經在之前幾個 posts 到出現過啦.
不過佢又係勁既, 應該都跟過晒 James, 朱穎恆同 Tom Lee 先可以得出張 sir 教得好過晒其他人既結論, 請問你學到什麼而令你認為張 sir 好勁呢?
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Beg, 21:55:22 05/20/06 Sat [1] (n219078001071.netvigator.com/219.78.1.71)
Hi 路人,
i guess charlie parker = 張 sir
i think he is really famous in this forum, as any topic which related to him receives the highest response rate.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- AuTakTak, 22:27:02 05/21/06 Sun [1] (NoHost/203.223.232.211)
Dear S.C. and everyone else,
First, I am having a hard time to understand S.C.'s English. I may suggest you to post in Chinese, so I won't, by any chance, misunderstand you.
Secondary, if you are so good, would you mind to be challenged or just simply hold a interflow class. I don't mind to learn and share.
May I invite everyone here to join if S.C. agrees?
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Fans, 17:51:30 05/22/06 Mon [1] (n219077180134.netvigator.com/219.77.180.134)
真係好想佢 post 吹野既片段上網, 等我知道究竟係濫竽充數, 定係真材實料!
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- whatever, 21:46:22 05/23/06 Tue [1] (wye-kc-209.wye.ic.ac.uk/195.194.228.44)
dont be stupid guys......
Grade 8 means nothing....
I am not speaking for anyone...
practice practice and practice
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Canny, 22:10:15 05/23/06 Tue [1] (n219073061084.netvigator.com/219.73.61.84)
Hi, whatever, Grade 8 really means nothing. But much better than those without such level and keep saying "those" had professional experience.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- PL, 00:34:26 05/24/06 Wed [1] (n219077020248.netvigator.com/219.77.20.248)
我也認為8級不代表甚麼, 不過作為音樂教師, 自己沒有考試經驗, 又要教學生考試, 就有點過份. 個人來說我會找一位8級或以上的色士風教師, 而且香港應該也有不少吧.
其實以SC的天份, 應該開班教人彈琴, 打鼓, 彈Bass, 唱歌, 仲可以教國語, 日文, 印度話, 越南話, 中西史, 數理化, 煮野食, 手工藝等..... 反正沒有專業能力也可開班授徒, 不如把全香港的興趣班做盡, 做個有錢人啦.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Sax, 11:27:16 05/24/06 Wed [1] (pcd690072.netvigator.com/218.102.222.72)
我相信在香港, 暫時色士風仍不像鋼琴那樣有很多達八級的人, 八級以上的就更少了, 所以有內涵而又教好的老師真是可遇不可求.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Roney, 23:37:42 05/24/06 Wed [1] (pcd378149.netvigator.com/203.218.168.149)
Hi, everyone, I have some news about this guy and which is ture. The information have been proved like a rock. He went to take the examiantion of grade 8 this month. So, six weeks later he might tell everybody. I HAVE GRADE 8, but may be not...
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Beg, 00:06:04 05/25/06 Thu [1] (pcd576246.netvigator.com/218.102.108.246)
That's an interesting topic. I'd like to intrepret in this way:
I guess many jazz saxophonists in HK don't have (or don't border have) passed grade 8 cause this cert just signifies the player equiped foundational performance skill. For these performers, they can simply show up their skills to get the job. Similar cases can be found in rock music arena (e.g. drums, elect. guiter, etc.)
However, we can't jump to another extreme to say that grade 8 means nothing. I think the course structure of ABRSM/Trinity provide saxophone lovers a systematic ways to learn that instrument. No matter you're just for fun or you intend to go to music school.
Regarding the issue of whether a tutor should have passed grade 8 or not, basically I agreed with what "PL" said. Although a good saxophonist without having passed grade 8 could still be a good tutor, this certification gives his/her students a certain kind of confident...at least.
Anyway, I hope "SC" could really try his best to teach his students. I think all of us don't want to have another "A1 Sze Sir" in music field.....
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- a teacher, 01:19:38 05/25/06 Thu [1] (n218103215106.netvigator.com/218.103.215.106)
以我個人超過十年的導師經驗來說（教導過不少本港導師及琴行教過的學生及一些現任導師），導師有沒有8級以上証書和實際教學質素及學生實際所學到又運用到的並沒有直接的關係，其中原因需要我們各方面認真反思而不是互相踐踏，其中包括：
1.本港普遍音樂教學水平偏低，這與本港的教育及文化環境有關；比如說音樂學院的課程及收生制度偏重學術成績及技巧水平但忽略創意，而政府及市民也大多不熱忱支持本地原創音樂及表演文化，導致學院出來的畢業生大多在不太請願及熱心教學下收生教學維持生計，個別新手導師本身缺乏音樂思維或認知不成熟，教的都是照本子直述，缺乏對學生的引導及啟發性的教育；
2.本港音樂教育偏重古典樂，但本港古典色士風導師的師資偏低，比如說本人教過很多由所謂出名的導師教過的5級、8級甚至演奏級的學生發現大多數非常缺乏節奏感、運氣不當只懂口咬正音(正式來形容是：高音薄、中音乾、低音爆)，更有部份死板吹譜缺乏音樂感及自我表達能力非常低、死練技巧缺乏音樂欣賞及聽奏能力等等，這些學生可能不敢即時上台吹一首簡單的流行曲，因為他們會希望拿樂譜回家先練練、對自己的節奏、音準及演譯完全沒有信心。實際上色士風的大部份技巧及音樂發展主要是在過去的100年內在美國成長，本港的所謂正統色士風古典樂教育（考級制度）其實比較過時；
3.太多由純商業角度出發的人仕在沒有專業資格或草草考級前/後教學，但實際缺乏導師專業資格、專業知識及教學經驗，而本港政府並無部門及法例監管，在此情況下個別騙子出現把學生信心拉到新低；
4.部份學生及家長缺乏選擇導師的能力，以訛傳訛幼稚偏見，有些以為有級一定好、有些以為有名一定好、有些貪平宜或貪就腳等等。其實如果學生對音樂一無所知，應先找出名的大琴行及音樂中心上課學習基本知識，這些琴行會注重師資並幫你過濾假教師，如果還是覺得導師教得不好或不當，可作正式書面投訴及發信到各大報章雜誌。如果學生對音樂有多少認識的話，上一兩課後便應該評估導師的教學質素；
5.還有部份情況是學生自已的問題，比如吸收能力特別低、不練習或少練習、不依導師編排練習、不聽/不懂欣賞音樂、出發點只求有型等等，這樣的話再好的導師也教不好這些學生；
總結還是開始所說的：導師有沒有8級以上証書和實際教學質素及學生實際所學到又運用到的並沒有直接的關係，但我也同意8級水平可以作為一個師資的參考標準，但絕不代表一定會教得正確、教得用心和教得好；
如果你發現有導師本身並無相關証書資格你就跟本不應該向他學習去考級；但如果你要學的就只是為了考級的話，你就不應該怨恨你的導師不能教會你爵士及其他流行音樂；如果你只想學爵士及流行音樂的話，你就不應該只看重古典樂級數而選擇導師；如果你對音樂一無所知又跟本不知道自己想學什麼的話，你應該弄清楚後再學音樂。
希望這些無聊討論到此為止，希望這個論壇能討論一些更有關音樂及色士風的話題(給我多一些機會在此交流)，希望有關人仕不要只懂在此推廣自己或自己的公司但毫無正面貢獻。
a teacher
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- Fish, 04:37:39 05/25/06 Thu [1] (NoHost/147.8.233.27)
Yea~ Totally agree with 'a teacher'
The formula of HK education is working hard on syllabus and pass papers and get an printed A on the certificate.
The similar formula is also used in music education.....
One major problem is that 99% of the parents don't know music. They know Twins, Eason Chan, but they don't know Mahler, John Coltrane, or even Nat King Cole (at least you can hear his song in many films).
I was in a concert performed by HKBU orch. I saw many parents talked while the performance, clapped hands between movements....etc. I won't comment on just action as impolite, but they're totally un-educated.
So, how could the parent select good music education for their children?
The so called artists in HK always said on the radio that they would like to see the music industry in HK 百花齊放. BULL SHIT!! They just want to explore new road for money. Where is Jazz? where is classic? where is opera? where is country music? where is traditional chinese music??
The music industry in HK is dead. If you really want to learn music, please go to US, Europe, or even Japan is much better than HK!!!
I am sorry for the OT.......please forgive me la.....
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 訪問 -- ANT, 13:02:02 05/25/06 Thu [1] (NoHost/202.128.229.41)
a teacher, 講得好.
有冇考 cert 問題真係不大. 能夠坦白承認就得.
我師傅都冇考級. 佢直認不諱. 但係佢真係好勁. classic 又得, jazz 又得. 肯家勁過大部分果 d 所謂 8 級教師. 又教得有心機, 所以我都好樂跟佢學.
反觀 s.c., 冇級咪認囉. 係勁o係怕乜認. 就係佢一直唔敢正面回應, 至咁令人反感.
Roney, 係真的, 佢而家只考得三級. 佢黎緊呢一兩個月至考八級. 至於考唔考得倒就唔知.... 唯一可以肯定o既係, 日後佢 show 張 cert 出黎, 一定唔敢 show 個日期出黎. haha.
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[>
Re: NHK TV 偰 -- 說陎, 03:22:27 05/26/06 Fri [1] (cm61-10-12-179.hkcable.com.hk/61.10.12.179)
湮模疑
扂俙鷭ax飲疑嗣爛(筍S俙腕蜁疑)ㄛ扂紒腕湮模蜁炴褼ad 鍘""The music industry in HK is dead""む娸郕繹鉎咘S韥陓癩奧堀笰薰奴狡S檍S潝砩秞楚ㄩ襠さ陔jazz band (friends group)痤媔潰S橏毓躠鑒竭嗣竭嗣嬪褣奧婓珨れ﹝
秞歇銘й鉻嬬酸篕藡效窱騫瞿洶^彆斕嶱宎蠷芠閡肺ㄒ"乞彆猁棯秞煉r癹ㄛ扂祴銀f爛"
郔摽洷咡湮模祥猁ら3ㄛ5ㄛ8奧俙秞楚ㄓ^彆湮模砑覜忳jazz腔政j覜ㄛ褫眕皮衪h腔皊睿湮狪(黯r請艙毀鯔)藩堎腔菴珨陎ぶ鞠 8:00pm飲衄jazz band栳軠(眈陓岆眅誠郔疑腔珨)傖T翋猁岆昹佷健ぞ屾e芄炸o衄3A芄飲S囌芄洶^彆蜁陓ㄛ狟陎ぶ赻撩斥倇嗊禳
music forever
^_^
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
[> [>
Re: NHK TV 偰? -- pls use the GB, 03:48:28 05/26/06 Fri [1] (cm61-10-12-235.hkcable.com.hk/61.10.12.235)
if you can read the above message , pls use the GB (simply chinese to read)
[ Post a Reply to This Message ]
[ Edit | View ]
