VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, [10] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: Sun, Feb 19, 06:33:04pm CST
Author: Rex
Author Host/IP: cache-rtc-ad03.proxy.aol.com / 152.163.100.197
Subject: Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox
In reply to: Dan McD. 's message, "Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox" on Wed, Feb 15, 11:08:55pm CST

>>>>>>I have been following this thread with great
>>>interest
>>>>>>checking in on it nearly every day, but haven't
>>>>>>responded due to the lack of time taking care of
>my
>>>>>>wife 24-7. By the way, she seems to have improved
>>>>some
>>>>>>after 2 treatments of chemo. Praise God! Thanks to
>>>>all
>>>>>>who are praying for her!
>>>>>>Please understand that all of us will never
>>>>completely
>>>>>>agree on everything and that is OK. We all have
>our
>>>>>>preferences. So what? What I have to say is not to
>>>>>>downgrade anyone nor is anything stated in anger.
>I
>>>>>>have enjoyed reading what some of you think and
>>hope
>>>>>>that you will enjoy what I write.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I started treeing foxes (grays of course) in the
>>>>>>mid-fifties. I have treed over two hundred in a
>>year
>>>>>>at several different periods of my life. I used to
>>>do
>>>>>>more fox hunting than anything else except during
>>>>bear
>>>>>>season. Bears are and always have been my
>preferred
>>>>>>game. Even today, I usually tree anywhere from
>>30-60
>>>>>>foxes every year and they are NOT as common as
>they
>>>>>>once were and I am not near as young either! Heh!
>>>>Heh!
>>>>>>I have trained several different breeds of dogs
>and
>>>>>>crosses that would catch a fox. Understand though,
>>>>>>that there are dogs that tree foxes and then there
>>>>are
>>>>>>the real fox dogs. I do know the difference.
>>>>>>I am much amused by some statements I have heard
>>>more
>>>>>>than one coonhunter make over the years about
>>>"having
>>>>>>treed a fox while out coonhunting", as if that
>>>proves
>>>>>>that they are easily caught. Yeah, right!?? You
>can
>>>>>>have a popup on any game. There are also the
>layups
>>>>to
>>>>>>consider. Treeing either doesn't qualify a dog as
>a
>>>>>>fox dog. I have treed bears, lions, bobcats and
>>even
>>>>>>gray fox in a matter of minutes. It happens on
>any
>>>>>>game on occasion.
>>>>>>Rex, I agree with you up to a point on a lot of
>>what
>>>>>>you wrote, but would not ever pick a July for a
>>gray
>>>>>>fox dog for several reasons. Maybe I just haven't
>>>>seen
>>>>>>the right ones, but I have seen and hunted with
>>>about
>>>>>>200 I believe. I have owned numerous July dogs
>over
>>>>>>the years and some made passable dogs, but not
>even
>>>>>>one was a top fox dog. Some were pretty good on
>>bear
>>>>>>and some were pretty good cat dogs, but not even
>>one
>>>>>>made a real fox dog.(When I say fox I mean gray
>>fox.
>>>>I
>>>>>>break my dogs off red fox and coyotes. Running
>>>>>>non-treeing game is completely different.)
>>>>>>I owned and hunted mostly Triggs for a period of
>16
>>>>>>years. I have owned several top fox dogs that were
>>>>>>Trigg or mostly Trigg. I would rank the Triggs
>>ahead
>>>>>>of the July by quite a margin, but... Both the
>>Trigg
>>>>>>and especially the July lack the toughness to get
>>>the
>>>>>>job done day after day. Most of them are once or
>>>>twice
>>>>>>a week dogs. They can't take hard running every
>>day.
>>>>>>Neither breed has real good feet. Part of having
>>>>tough
>>>>>>feet is a mattter of judicious hunting and
>>>toughening
>>>>>>gradually, but neither the Trigg nor the July has
>>>>good
>>>>>>enough feet to continually run on the lava rock
>>>>around
>>>>>>here. One race that goes into the lavas will lame
>>>>them
>>>>>>up for 2-3 weeks even after you have them in
>>>>>>condition.
>>>>>>There are some running dogs that can tree foxes
>and
>>>>>>are tougher. In my experience the Goodmans,
>>Croghans
>>>>>>and some strains of Walkers can. (I have seen some
>>>>>>Running Walkers that had very soft,poor feet too,
>>as
>>>>>>well as some of all breeds.) These also often do
>>>well
>>>>>>on bear too, and are very gritty in general, with
>>>the
>>>>>>exception of many Running Walkers. However,
>>>Goodmans,
>>>>>>Croghans, Triggs, Julys, and Running Walkers tend
>>to
>>>>>>be real fussy/growly in the box. I haven't seen
>>many
>>>>>>problems under the tree however. They seem to be
>>>>tuned
>>>>>>into the game enough to ignore each other, in
>>>general
>>>>>>under the tree.
>>>>>>I never did like the semi-silent nature of the
>>>Triggs
>>>>>>and to a lesser degree the July dogs. I am very
>>well
>>>>>>aware that any semi-silent or silent trailing dog
>>of
>>>>>>equal ability as an open dog WILL catch a given
>fox
>>>>or
>>>>>>cat in considerably less time. That is of no
>>>>>>consequence to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now to the main point you made Rex...You think
>that
>>>>>>there are very few Leopards that will make gray
>fox
>>>>>>dogs. I have to agree with what you said, but not
>>>>>>necessarily with what you imply. OK..Most Leopards
>>>>are
>>>>>>not fox dogs. That is a true statement, but...How
>>>>many
>>>>>>Leopards are ever really hunted on gray fox? Not
>>>>many,
>>>>>>and that is a lead pipe cinch. I would guess that
>>>>less
>>>>>>than 2% of all Leopards are ever hunted on gray
>>fox.
>>>>>>Of those practically none, including most of those
>>I
>>>>>>have owned and trained in the past 10 years or so
>>>>have
>>>>>>been hunted properly to make a real fox dog. Prior
>>>to
>>>>>>the last ten years, I did start most of mine on
>>gray
>>>>>>fox. It just isn't as easy to do anymore.
>>>>>>I have yet to see a really top fox dog that wasn't
>>>>>>started on fox or at least trained on fox
>>>>concurrently
>>>>>>with other game for at least a year or so. Very
>>>often
>>>>>>I start and train my Leopards on bear and that
>sort
>>>>of
>>>>>>dog will maybe tree a few foxes later if run on
>>fox,
>>>>>>but will NEVER make a REAL fox dog. Dogs trained
>on
>>>>>>bear will overrun the track and make way too many
>>>>>>loses. A lot of how I train mine depends on when
>>>they
>>>>>>reach huntable age and the numbers of available
>>>>foxes!
>>>>>>Too often I don't get to start dogs on fox, which
>>>>>>makes a better dog on all game. A dog that can
>>trail
>>>>a
>>>>>>gray fox can trail anything.
>>>>>>So, Rex...Have you ever run a Leopard on fox only
>>>>>>until it was pretty much trained? There are
>>Leopards
>>>>>>that will make top fox dogs, if hunted that way.
>>>>>>(Understand that running dogs won't make great fox
>>>>>>dogs either unless their initial training is on
>>>fox.)
>>>>>>I presently own two Leopards that are real fox
>>dogs.
>>>>I
>>>>>>have four others that will tree some foxes, but
>>they
>>>>>>aren't "foxdogs". The main criterion for staying
>in
>>>>my
>>>>>>pack has to do with being a bear dog, but I surely
>>>do
>>>>>>enjoy fox hunting! Speed is not the big issue with
>>>>>>treeing gray foxes. Running a track steadily
>>without
>>>>>>making a lot of loses and continually "jerking the
>>>>>>slack out of the track" will tree the fox.
>>>>>>As a breed, I would choose the Leopard even if I
>>>just
>>>>>>wanted to cat and fox hunt. They are tougher, have
>>>>>>better feet and are so much more fun to hunt,
>>mainly
>>>>>>because they are so much more obedient. They also
>>>>take
>>>>>>the cold better than any breed I have ever been
>>>>>>around. Besides that, you can hunt them hard every
>>>>day
>>>>>>and they are like the "Energizer Bunny"...they
>just
>>>>>>keep going and going!! I also prefer open
>trailing.
>>>>>>The American Leopard Cur, as Perry noted, is
>>>>>>intelligent enough to be successful at many things
>>>if
>>>>>>properly trained. As for me I will continue to
>hunt
>>>>>>Leopards, because they suit me best.
>>>>>>Randy
>>>>> Randy, I'm glad to hear your wife is doing
>better.
>>>>>We HAVE been praying, and in earnest. We have a
>>small
>>>>>prayer group at Church that truly pray and God
>>>>>answers! Iam sure we are in agreement in our faith.
>>>>> Now, as always , you have to dissagree with me on
>>>>>most things, I have come to expect that. I will
>make
>>>>>only a few points. I feel qualified to comment on
>>>>>Leopards, even yours, as I owned and hunted with
>>most
>>>>>of their ancestors. I recall telling you, when you
>>>>>started breeding theses dogs dogs for bear, that
>>>after
>>>>>breeding your own for a few generations,
>>selectively,
>>>>>you could probably improve them on bear. That is
>>same
>>>>>thing I said, for gray fox. Next, Everyone knows
>>gray
>>>>>fox tree much more, out there. And as for the
>strain
>>>>>of Julys I referred to, they have been bred for
>many
>>>>>generations specifacally for gray fox, here, in
>>dense
>>>>>brush. You have NEVER seen or hunted with them. how
>>>>>can you know how they hold up?? I will not debate
>>>this
>>>>>with you, any further. As for dogs, I no longer
>hunt
>>>>>much, I took up fishing, for my Savior! Rex
>>>>
>>>>Rex,
>>>>I do disagree with you on some, or maybe just a few
>>>>things but certainly not "most" things as you stated
>>>>above. I don't think you really believe that, or at
>>>>least you overstated it. I think we agree on a great
>>>>many things and our many good conversations over the
>>>>years emphasize that to me. Whenever we discuss
>>>>anything we do have a tendancy to dwell more on our
>>>>points of difference. Keep on fishing, amigo! Randy
>>>You fellas are truly blessed to have so many choices
>>>of game to persue!! Do either of you have wild hogs??
>>>In these parts we have coyote and red fox. Both are
>>>taboo for my dogs. Neither could either be ran with
>>>dogs with any great success due to the roads being so
>>>plentiful. A few years back some fella tried coyotes.
>>>It did not take the coyotes long to learn the safety
>>>of the 4 lane highway. They would get in the medium
>>>and most hounds were smacked in a very short while. I
>>>can't remember the last time I heard anyone in my
>neck
>>>of the woods even mention gray fox. I have been going
>>>to a local fur buyer for 3 years and have not seen a
>>>single gray fox hide. I hear down toward Pennsylvania
>>>they are getting a few bobcats and a stray bear
>>>ocassionally. Because of my lack of first hand
>>>experience with these different forms of game I feel
>>>unqualified to get to deep in this conversation. But
>>>confidence in my leopards over all has rarely been an
>>>issue. I have enjoyed the past few post topics on the
>>>board. Thanks to all for taking part.
>>
>>Yes, Perry there are a few wild hogs near me. I don't
>>hunt them with my dogs anymore and never did a whole
>>lot. I do like to kill one every once in awhile... if
>>I see a nice fat one! I can be in some pigs in about
>>45 minutes from home. That is kind of hit and miss pig
>>hunting there though. About two hours away there is
>>some good hunting with plenty of hogs. Most of that is
>>private ground though. Come on out sometime and I will
>>show you some different hunting with the kind of dogs
>>you and I both like! Randy
> Very fun to listen to the many different reactions.
>I wish all of you folks could live in the gamiest of
>areas and get a chance to run them dogs all year. If
>you don't count the heat of summer, there is something
>to run up here all year. Cats, grays, bear, coyotes,
>coon...we don't have enough cougars to have a season
>or enough to find one very often, but they are
>increasing in number and maybe some day we'll have a
>few extra.
> I don't get the impression that many people know the
>limits of the leopard curs and how well they perform
>on most every type of tree game they are hunted on.
>It really is incredible as far as tree dogs go. These
>few conversations prove the worth and great utility of
>this breed. I would venture to say that an
>enlightening and very informative article could be
>written on this subject. Randy, maybe you have
>already thought of incorperating this discussion into
>your next FC article. Your most likely way ahead of
>my on this thought. I think that this topic deserves
>a larger feature article though and could be a great
>promoting tool for the breed in general. You have
>more experience with leopards on more types of game
>than anyone I know, so this would fall squarely in
>your lap by default. It would be great to hear more
>from other folks who do things like this with their
>leopards. Hearing stories about some of the lesser
>seen game adds a good dose of romanticism for many
>folks and certainly wouldn't hurt the membership
>numbers any. Randy, what about that guy out in Co.
>who lives by Jed Predergast? I think he does ADC work
>or something?? Maybe the next time you talk to him,
>you could persuade him into writing an article also, I
>would bet he has some interesting stories. Just
>another thought.
> I should add, when I started in dogs I had some
>really phenominal dogs (not mine) to get my first
>taste of tree game behind but there was always
>something missing. There was always one thing or
>another lacking in most every example of every breed I
>had seen and I wondered if there was another breed out
>there better suited to my tastes. Later I started
>reading about leopard curs and thought to myself that,
>"If there are even two dogs in that breed who can do
>all of the things stated in the breed description, I
>think I can really do something great with this."
>Well there are way more than two and I have been
>rewarded with the best dogs that I have ever had. I
>was always faced with the idea that I would have to
>have at least three dogs to make one whole dog
>(refering to talents). Not so with the leopards. And
>not that uncommon I might add. I feel very glad with
>where I have ended up in dogs and I would like to
>thank all of you who have helped pave the way and keep
>these dogs going. Like I said in an earlier post,
>"I'm having the time of my life!"
I'm back. Wow, this is surely the hottest thing on here lately. As for wild hog, I have never hunted them, but have placed several dogs with hunters who like them. Every one knows I am a Leopard Cur fancier, and I have hunted with them 35 years, from all over. There once was a time I'd cross half the country just to check out a dog. In thais time frame I,ve seen many other breeds as well. I am also a long time member of the American Plott Assoc. and really like certain Plotts. Many bear hunters keep both Plotts and Leopards, and they work well. Back to fox, I have enjoyed this chase all my life also. Some years back, I bought some Julys from very reputable breeders and hunted them on fox, red and gray, also coyote. While running these Julys I had the priveledge to get to know and hunt with quite a few breeders.I soon learned, that unlike most breeds, these men did NOT sell their dogs, money was not in the scene. I feel confident in saying i hunted with some of the best.
I want to go on record, that as good as our Leopards are, I don't consider them superior fox dogs, to a purebred breed that has been around 150 years, bred for fox. Also, I feel the same in regard to saying Leopards are superior to Plotts, on bear, as A BREED. Friends, I,ve seen Julys, and other running dog strains, that were tough as pine knots, could and would run all day, many days in a row. They would run a fox, when pups, first exposure.The whole litter.A lot of Leopards wont ever run them, or will quit. They just are not naturally bred to run fox. I also enjoy rabbit hunting and bird hunting, but down here, we preferr using beagles on rabbits, and pointers or setters on quail, even though I guess a Leopard Cur will pursue either. I admit I,ve used these dogs on many things and they are my first choice, but doesn't mean they can walk on water. It really cocerns me to hear people run down other breeds, there just isn,t any reason. I realize some people will say that I must not have hunted with good dogs, you can thing whatever, but whats important to me is Honesty , Integrety, and a mans word. Many people read this site, and we should respect others. Thanks, Rex

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.