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Date Posted: Mon, Feb 20, 01:50:54pm CST
Author: Gray Fox
Author Host/IP: 70-101-223-203.dsl1.pco.ca.frontiernet.net / 70.101.223.203
Subject: Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox
In reply to: Rex 's message, "Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox" on Sun, Feb 19, 06:33:04pm CST

>>>>>>>I have been following this thread with great
>>>>interest
>>>>>>>checking in on it nearly every day, but haven't
>>>>>>>responded due to the lack of time taking care of
>>my
>>>>>>>wife 24-7. By the way, she seems to have improved
>>>>>some
>>>>>>>after 2 treatments of chemo. Praise God! Thanks
>to
>>>>>all
>>>>>>>who are praying for her!
>>>>>>>Please understand that all of us will never
>>>>>completely
>>>>>>>agree on everything and that is OK. We all have
>>our
>>>>>>>preferences. So what? What I have to say is not
>to
>>>>>>>downgrade anyone nor is anything stated in anger.
>>I
>>>>>>>have enjoyed reading what some of you think and
>>>hope
>>>>>>>that you will enjoy what I write.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I started treeing foxes (grays of course) in the
>>>>>>>mid-fifties. I have treed over two hundred in a
>>>year
>>>>>>>at several different periods of my life. I used
>to
>>>>do
>>>>>>>more fox hunting than anything else except during
>>>>>bear
>>>>>>>season. Bears are and always have been my
>>preferred
>>>>>>>game. Even today, I usually tree anywhere from
>>>30-60
>>>>>>>foxes every year and they are NOT as common as
>>they
>>>>>>>once were and I am not near as young either! Heh!
>>>>>Heh!
>>>>>>>I have trained several different breeds of dogs
>>and
>>>>>>>crosses that would catch a fox. Understand
>though,
>>>>>>>that there are dogs that tree foxes and then
>there
>>>>>are
>>>>>>>the real fox dogs. I do know the difference.
>>>>>>>I am much amused by some statements I have heard
>>>>more
>>>>>>>than one coonhunter make over the years about
>>>>"having
>>>>>>>treed a fox while out coonhunting", as if that
>>>>proves
>>>>>>>that they are easily caught. Yeah, right!?? You
>>can
>>>>>>>have a popup on any game. There are also the
>>layups
>>>>>to
>>>>>>>consider. Treeing either doesn't qualify a dog as
>>a
>>>>>>>fox dog. I have treed bears, lions, bobcats and
>>>even
>>>>>>>gray fox in a matter of minutes. It happens on
>>any
>>>>>>>game on occasion.
>>>>>>>Rex, I agree with you up to a point on a lot of
>>>what
>>>>>>>you wrote, but would not ever pick a July for a
>>>gray
>>>>>>>fox dog for several reasons. Maybe I just haven't
>>>>>seen
>>>>>>>the right ones, but I have seen and hunted with
>>>>about
>>>>>>>200 I believe. I have owned numerous July dogs
>>over
>>>>>>>the years and some made passable dogs, but not
>>even
>>>>>>>one was a top fox dog. Some were pretty good on
>>>bear
>>>>>>>and some were pretty good cat dogs, but not even
>>>one
>>>>>>>made a real fox dog.(When I say fox I mean gray
>>>fox.
>>>>>I
>>>>>>>break my dogs off red fox and coyotes. Running
>>>>>>>non-treeing game is completely different.)
>>>>>>>I owned and hunted mostly Triggs for a period of
>>16
>>>>>>>years. I have owned several top fox dogs that
>were
>>>>>>>Trigg or mostly Trigg. I would rank the Triggs
>>>ahead
>>>>>>>of the July by quite a margin, but... Both the
>>>Trigg
>>>>>>>and especially the July lack the toughness to get
>>>>the
>>>>>>>job done day after day. Most of them are once or
>>>>>twice
>>>>>>>a week dogs. They can't take hard running every
>>>day.
>>>>>>>Neither breed has real good feet. Part of having
>>>>>tough
>>>>>>>feet is a mattter of judicious hunting and
>>>>toughening
>>>>>>>gradually, but neither the Trigg nor the July has
>>>>>good
>>>>>>>enough feet to continually run on the lava rock
>>>>>around
>>>>>>>here. One race that goes into the lavas will lame
>>>>>them
>>>>>>>up for 2-3 weeks even after you have them in
>>>>>>>condition.
>>>>>>>There are some running dogs that can tree foxes
>>and
>>>>>>>are tougher. In my experience the Goodmans,
>>>Croghans
>>>>>>>and some strains of Walkers can. (I have seen
>some
>>>>>>>Running Walkers that had very soft,poor feet too,
>>>as
>>>>>>>well as some of all breeds.) These also often do
>>>>well
>>>>>>>on bear too, and are very gritty in general, with
>>>>the
>>>>>>>exception of many Running Walkers. However,
>>>>Goodmans,
>>>>>>>Croghans, Triggs, Julys, and Running Walkers tend
>>>to
>>>>>>>be real fussy/growly in the box. I haven't seen
>>>many
>>>>>>>problems under the tree however. They seem to be
>>>>>tuned
>>>>>>>into the game enough to ignore each other, in
>>>>general
>>>>>>>under the tree.
>>>>>>>I never did like the semi-silent nature of the
>>>>Triggs
>>>>>>>and to a lesser degree the July dogs. I am very
>>>well
>>>>>>>aware that any semi-silent or silent trailing dog
>>>of
>>>>>>>equal ability as an open dog WILL catch a given
>>fox
>>>>>or
>>>>>>>cat in considerably less time. That is of no
>>>>>>>consequence to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now to the main point you made Rex...You think
>>that
>>>>>>>there are very few Leopards that will make gray
>>fox
>>>>>>>dogs. I have to agree with what you said, but not
>>>>>>>necessarily with what you imply. OK..Most
>Leopards
>>>>>are
>>>>>>>not fox dogs. That is a true statement, but...How
>>>>>many
>>>>>>>Leopards are ever really hunted on gray fox? Not
>>>>>many,
>>>>>>>and that is a lead pipe cinch. I would guess that
>>>>>less
>>>>>>>than 2% of all Leopards are ever hunted on gray
>>>fox.
>>>>>>>Of those practically none, including most of
>those
>>>I
>>>>>>>have owned and trained in the past 10 years or so
>>>>>have
>>>>>>>been hunted properly to make a real fox dog.
>Prior
>>>>to
>>>>>>>the last ten years, I did start most of mine on
>>>gray
>>>>>>>fox. It just isn't as easy to do anymore.
>>>>>>>I have yet to see a really top fox dog that
>wasn't
>>>>>>>started on fox or at least trained on fox
>>>>>concurrently
>>>>>>>with other game for at least a year or so. Very
>>>>often
>>>>>>>I start and train my Leopards on bear and that
>>sort
>>>>>of
>>>>>>>dog will maybe tree a few foxes later if run on
>>>fox,
>>>>>>>but will NEVER make a REAL fox dog. Dogs trained
>>on
>>>>>>>bear will overrun the track and make way too many
>>>>>>>loses. A lot of how I train mine depends on when
>>>>they
>>>>>>>reach huntable age and the numbers of available
>>>>>foxes!
>>>>>>>Too often I don't get to start dogs on fox, which
>>>>>>>makes a better dog on all game. A dog that can
>>>trail
>>>>>a
>>>>>>>gray fox can trail anything.
>>>>>>>So, Rex...Have you ever run a Leopard on fox only
>>>>>>>until it was pretty much trained? There are
>>>Leopards
>>>>>>>that will make top fox dogs, if hunted that way.
>>>>>>>(Understand that running dogs won't make great
>fox
>>>>>>>dogs either unless their initial training is on
>>>>fox.)
>>>>>>>I presently own two Leopards that are real fox
>>>dogs.
>>>>>I
>>>>>>>have four others that will tree some foxes, but
>>>they
>>>>>>>aren't "foxdogs". The main criterion for staying
>>in
>>>>>my
>>>>>>>pack has to do with being a bear dog, but I
>surely
>>>>do
>>>>>>>enjoy fox hunting! Speed is not the big issue
>with
>>>>>>>treeing gray foxes. Running a track steadily
>>>without
>>>>>>>making a lot of loses and continually "jerking
>the
>>>>>>>slack out of the track" will tree the fox.
>>>>>>>As a breed, I would choose the Leopard even if I
>>>>just
>>>>>>>wanted to cat and fox hunt. They are tougher,
>have
>>>>>>>better feet and are so much more fun to hunt,
>>>mainly
>>>>>>>because they are so much more obedient. They also
>>>>>take
>>>>>>>the cold better than any breed I have ever been
>>>>>>>around. Besides that, you can hunt them hard
>every
>>>>>day
>>>>>>>and they are like the "Energizer Bunny"...they
>>just
>>>>>>>keep going and going!! I also prefer open
>>trailing.
>>>>>>>The American Leopard Cur, as Perry noted, is
>>>>>>>intelligent enough to be successful at many
>things
>>>>if
>>>>>>>properly trained. As for me I will continue to
>>hunt
>>>>>>>Leopards, because they suit me best.
>>>>>>>Randy
>>>>>> Randy, I'm glad to hear your wife is doing
>>better.
>>>>>>We HAVE been praying, and in earnest. We have a
>>>small
>>>>>>prayer group at Church that truly pray and God
>>>>>>answers! Iam sure we are in agreement in our
>faith.
>>>>>> Now, as always , you have to dissagree with me
>on
>>>>>>most things, I have come to expect that. I will
>>make
>>>>>>only a few points. I feel qualified to comment on
>>>>>>Leopards, even yours, as I owned and hunted with
>>>most
>>>>>>of their ancestors. I recall telling you, when you
>>>>>>started breeding theses dogs dogs for bear, that
>>>>after
>>>>>>breeding your own for a few generations,
>>>selectively,
>>>>>>you could probably improve them on bear. That is
>>>same
>>>>>>thing I said, for gray fox. Next, Everyone knows
>>>gray
>>>>>>fox tree much more, out there. And as for the
>>strain
>>>>>>of Julys I referred to, they have been bred for
>>many
>>>>>>generations specifacally for gray fox, here, in
>>>dense
>>>>>>brush. You have NEVER seen or hunted with them.
>how
>>>>>>can you know how they hold up?? I will not debate
>>>>this
>>>>>>with you, any further. As for dogs, I no longer
>>hunt
>>>>>>much, I took up fishing, for my Savior! Rex
>>>>>
>>>>>Rex,
>>>>>I do disagree with you on some, or maybe just a few
>>>>>things but certainly not "most" things as you
>stated
>>>>>above. I don't think you really believe that, or at
>>>>>least you overstated it. I think we agree on a
>great
>>>>>many things and our many good conversations over
>the
>>>>>years emphasize that to me. Whenever we discuss
>>>>>anything we do have a tendancy to dwell more on our
>>>>>points of difference. Keep on fishing, amigo! Randy
>>>>You fellas are truly blessed to have so many choices
>>>>of game to persue!! Do either of you have wild
>hogs??
>>>>In these parts we have coyote and red fox. Both are
>>>>taboo for my dogs. Neither could either be ran with
>>>>dogs with any great success due to the roads being
>so
>>>>plentiful. A few years back some fella tried
>coyotes.
>>>>It did not take the coyotes long to learn the safety
>>>>of the 4 lane highway. They would get in the medium
>>>>and most hounds were smacked in a very short while.
>I
>>>>can't remember the last time I heard anyone in my
>>neck
>>>>of the woods even mention gray fox. I have been
>going
>>>>to a local fur buyer for 3 years and have not seen a
>>>>single gray fox hide. I hear down toward
>Pennsylvania
>>>>they are getting a few bobcats and a stray bear
>>>>ocassionally. Because of my lack of first hand
>>>>experience with these different forms of game I feel
>>>>unqualified to get to deep in this conversation. But
>>>>confidence in my leopards over all has rarely been
>an
>>>>issue. I have enjoyed the past few post topics on
>the
>>>>board. Thanks to all for taking part.
>>>
>>>Yes, Perry there are a few wild hogs near me. I don't
>>>hunt them with my dogs anymore and never did a whole
>>>lot. I do like to kill one every once in awhile... if
>>>I see a nice fat one! I can be in some pigs in about
>>>45 minutes from home. That is kind of hit and miss
>pig
>>>hunting there though. About two hours away there is
>>>some good hunting with plenty of hogs. Most of that
>is
>>>private ground though. Come on out sometime and I
>will
>>>show you some different hunting with the kind of dogs
>>>you and I both like! Randy
>> Very fun to listen to the many different reactions.
>>I wish all of you folks could live in the gamiest of
>>areas and get a chance to run them dogs all year. If
>>you don't count the heat of summer, there is something
>>to run up here all year. Cats, grays, bear, coyotes,
>>coon...we don't have enough cougars to have a season
>>or enough to find one very often, but they are
>>increasing in number and maybe some day we'll have a
>>few extra.
>> I don't get the impression that many people know the
>>limits of the leopard curs and how well they perform
>>on most every type of tree game they are hunted on.
>>It really is incredible as far as tree dogs go. These
>>few conversations prove the worth and great utility of
>>this breed. I would venture to say that an
>>enlightening and very informative article could be
>>written on this subject. Randy, maybe you have
>>already thought of incorperating this discussion into
>>your next FC article. Your most likely way ahead of
>>my on this thought. I think that this topic deserves
>>a larger feature article though and could be a great
>>promoting tool for the breed in general. You have
>>more experience with leopards on more types of game
>>than anyone I know, so this would fall squarely in
>>your lap by default. It would be great to hear more
>>from other folks who do things like this with their
>>leopards. Hearing stories about some of the lesser
>>seen game adds a good dose of romanticism for many
>>folks and certainly wouldn't hurt the membership
>>numbers any. Randy, what about that guy out in Co.
>>who lives by Jed Predergast? I think he does ADC work
>>or something?? Maybe the next time you talk to him,
>>you could persuade him into writing an article also, I
>>would bet he has some interesting stories. Just
>>another thought.
>> I should add, when I started in dogs I had some
>>really phenominal dogs (not mine) to get my first
>>taste of tree game behind but there was always
>>something missing. There was always one thing or
>>another lacking in most every example of every breed I
>>had seen and I wondered if there was another breed out
>>there better suited to my tastes. Later I started
>>reading about leopard curs and thought to myself that,
>>"If there are even two dogs in that breed who can do
>>all of the things stated in the breed description, I
>>think I can really do something great with this."
>>Well there are way more than two and I have been
>>rewarded with the best dogs that I have ever had. I
>>was always faced with the idea that I would have to
>>have at least three dogs to make one whole dog
>>(refering to talents). Not so with the leopards. And
>>not that uncommon I might add. I feel very glad with
>>where I have ended up in dogs and I would like to
>>thank all of you who have helped pave the way and keep
>>these dogs going. Like I said in an earlier post,
>>"I'm having the time of my life!"
> I'm back. Wow, this is surely the hottest thing on
>here lately. As for wild hog, I have never hunted
>them, but have placed several dogs with hunters who
>like them. Every one knows I am a Leopard Cur fancier,
>and I have hunted with them 35 years, from all over.
>There once was a time I'd cross half the country just
>to check out a dog. In thais time frame I,ve seen many
>other breeds as well. I am also a long time member of
>the American Plott Assoc. and really like certain
>Plotts. Many bear hunters keep both Plotts and
>Leopards, and they work well. Back to fox, I have
>enjoyed this chase all my life also. Some years back,
>I bought some Julys from very reputable breeders and
>hunted them on fox, red and gray, also coyote. While
>running these Julys I had the priveledge to get to
>know and hunt with quite a few breeders.I soon
>learned, that unlike most breeds, these men did NOT
>sell their dogs, money was not in the scene. I feel
>confident in saying i hunted with some of the best.
> I want to go on record, that as good as our Leopards
>are, I don't consider them superior fox dogs, to a
>purebred breed that has been around 150 years, bred
>for fox. Also, I feel the same in regard to saying
>Leopards are superior to Plotts, on bear, as A BREED.
>Friends, I,ve seen Julys, and other running dog
>strains, that were tough as pine knots, could and
>would run all day, many days in a row. They would run
>a fox, when pups, first exposure.The whole litter.A
>lot of Leopards wont ever run them, or will quit. They
>just are not naturally bred to run fox. I also enjoy
>rabbit hunting and bird hunting, but down here, we
>preferr using beagles on rabbits, and pointers or
>setters on quail, even though I guess a Leopard Cur
>will pursue either. I admit I,ve used these dogs on
>many things and they are my first choice, but doesn't
>mean they can walk on water. It really cocerns me to
>hear people run down other breeds, there just isn,t
>any reason. I realize some people will say that I must
>not have hunted with good dogs, you can thing
>whatever, but whats important to me is Honesty ,
>Integrety, and a mans word. Many people read this
>site, and we should respect others. Thanks, Rex

Rex, I don't know why you seem to take things so personally. I assume that you have directed a lot of your post toward me. If not, please say so. I really don't expect you to agree with me on everyting.
First, I said before and I will repeat, I don't, as you stated above, "choose to disagree with" you on "most things". You made that statement or something very similar and then simply ignored my response. I simply do not believe that we disagree on most things. You may see it that way, but I really cannot understand why. (and... Believe me, PLEASE, that I am not angry and I am NOT questioning your honesty here.) That is NOT what I mean at all. If that is what you believe, I do respectfully disagree. Please note that I sincerely mean "respectfully".
You and I both tend to concentrate and talk more about our points of disagreement. Maybe it would be easier to just talk about things we agree on. That would be mostly boring for me and I would bet less interesting for others reading.
Of course, it is really hard to interpret the tone of anything written. I wrote above that I hoped nobody would think that I was angry. I am not. Neither do I disrespect the other opinions stated here. It really doesn't matter if you agree with me about everything. I don't even expect you to do that. I respect what you say, but as you say we don't agree on everything. So what?
Second, I apologize if you think I am breed bashing. I did not intend to do that in any way. Our discussion was, as I saw it, talking about what we preferred and why. If I only stated what I liked about the July breed, I am sure you would misunderstand and think that I believed they "walked on water". The July has some very positive attributes. I did write about some of the reasons that I did not prefer the July. Just for the record, I kept and hunted an almost all-July pack for about six years. I owned a July or two off and on for years and years. When I first started hunting with Julys, I really thought they were the breed for me. They lined out a track like I liked...no fiddle-faddle and going back and forth, which really annoys me. Those that would tree made decent dogs. A lot were gritty enough to make bear dogs. They can run a track as fast as any breed. Mr. Goodbary who lived in the Grass Valley, California area had probably 100-150 July dogs at his VERY elaborate keenels every time I went there. He had some really nice July dogs. I guarantee when they caught a coyote on the ground, which was the normal thing, it was as good as dead. I never saw him take a gun along, but I did see numerous coyotes run and caught. He had a dog called "Cherokee Man" that would kill a coyote by himself.
Third, I do prefer the American Leopard Cur even for gray fox. That is simply a statement of fact about my opinion. I do feel a little insulted by your statements about honesty and integrity and the apparent inferences. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it reads. I certainly hope not. I am sorry that you feel like I have threatened you or something because of my preferences (??). I have not stated that the Leopard Cur is necessarily better on gray fox. I do like them better and I explained a few of the reasons why. I may not have communicated well. If you have misunderstood my intent or message, I am sorry. Forgive me as I forgive you and let's go on.
I sincerely wish that we could go back in time to when your Dutchman Creek Sam was a young dog ready to start. I truly believe that he would have made a superior gray fox dog, had he been trained from the get-go on them. I would bet on that, but of course there is no way to prove it one way or another. I base my idea on what I have heard from several people, who did have the opportunity to hunt with Sam. The way he could handle a track, I am sure that he would have made a real fox dog. What do you think?
Randy

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