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Date Posted: Wed, Jan 30, 06:33:31pm CST
Author: Rex
Author Host/IP: cpe-065-188-189-098.triad.res.rr.com / 65.188.189.98
Subject: Re: Just wondering??
In reply to: Tommy Prince 's message, "Re: Just wondering??" on Mon, Jan 28, 10:06:04pm CST

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Just curious... What are folks thoughts on
>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for coon in the Carolinas or southern
>>swamps
>>>>>vs
>>>>>>>>>>bear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred dogs for Wi. and MN. vs cat dogs for
>>>>>>>Montana
>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Idaho. Will they all be bred the same for
>>>the
>>>>>>>>same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>traits, size etc?? Never bear or cat
>hunted
>>>>>>>>>myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Never hunted in bear or cat country
>either.
>>>>>But
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe the differnt terrain and game
>would
>>>>>>>cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>breeders to breed a little different dog
>>>than
>>>>>>>>>maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coon hunter in the midwest. With that said
>>>if
>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>these dogs were lets say walkers in the
>>>>>>>beginning
>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>had bred for generations in these regions
>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>seperate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jobs are they still all the same breed or
>>>>>what?
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe yes but some folks don't seem to
>>>>think
>>>>>>>>so.
>>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>really think that a dog bred and raised by
>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bear hunter in WA. for generations may
>>>differ
>>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dog here in OHIO from the same foundation
>>>>>stock
>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bred for generations for coon hunting.I
>>know
>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>was a kid dogs from open country like
>>Kansas
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Oklahoma tended to be a good bit bigger
>>than
>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raised here in Ohio and Indiana where live
>>>>>>stock
>>>>>>>>>>>>woven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wire fences were common.I think a bear
>bred
>>>>>>>>>leopard
>>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ca. vs a coon bred leopard here in Ohio
>are
>>>>>>both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leopards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good point, Perry. Selective breeding can
>>>>>>>result
>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>differing dogs, from same pedigrees. Bear
>>>bred
>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>our area must be powerful hard running dogs
>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>take a lot of punishment from the terrain
>>and
>>>>>>>long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>hrs. they do not have to be extremly quick
>>>>>>>>>locators,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>or have to be lay up dogs, but dogs of this
>>>>>>>>>breeding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>can do all this. Bobcat and gray fox dogs
>>>must
>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>>>able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>to push a track and not let the critter
>rest
>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>plays its tricks, and must also be very
>good
>>>>>>>>>>locators
>>>>>>>>>>>>>unlike a beardog. Coon dog has to be agood
>>>>>track
>>>>>>>>>>dog,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>and if a hunter wants a really good dog,
>the
>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>>>>>>be a lay up and pressure tree dog, and
>split
>>>>>>>tree.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Many of our origanal dogs were good at most
>>>of
>>>>>>>>>these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>things. My question is; how well will a dog
>>>>>used
>>>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>only for big game, retain the traits needed
>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>excell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>as a coon dog over several generations?
>>Also,
>>>>>if
>>>>>>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>for slow trailing , how many generations
>>will
>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>retain the heads up, run to
>>catch,mentality?
>>>>>>>>Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>would have two breeds, but which is a Cur,
>>>and
>>>>>>>>>which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>is a trail hound? Rex
>>>>>>>>>>>>Rex my opinion we are allredy heading down
>>>that
>>>>>>>>>trail
>>>>>>>>>>>>with the use of selective breeding for
>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>game.
>>>>>>>>>>> dog are very ez to change in the breed in
>>only
>>>>3
>>>>>>>>>gen.
>>>>>>>>>>>you can change things alot if you take and
>>>breed
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>>that one thing that you want. evolution takes
>>>>>time
>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>with dogs it does not take as long. take the
>>>>farm
>>>>>>>>>>>raised fox back when they started to raise
>fox
>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>pins
>>>>>>>>>>>some would bite you and go crazy in the pin.
>a
>>>>>>>>>>>professor dread only the fox that would not
>>>bite
>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>>you put your hand in the cage in 3 gen they
>>had
>>>>>>>pups
>>>>>>>>>>>that would not bite but liked people and the
>>>>>color
>>>>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>>>>>changed. so with anybody trying to get
>>>something
>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>works for them you are going to change things
>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>>the breed. in the end you can not have a
>>>>>different
>>>>>>>>>>>breed just traits. hmmmmm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I've always thought that it was crazy for guys
>>>to
>>>>>>>pay
>>>>>>>>>>30K for a dog when all of it's ancestors
>>>werebred
>>>>>>>>for,
>>>>>>>>>>raised and trained on, and evaluated for
>>>breeding
>>>>>>>for
>>>>>>>>>>hunting coon. That same guy could have gone
>>and
>>>>>>>>>>bought a 5K to 7K cat dog and broke it from
>>cats
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>started running it on coon and had at least as
>>>>>good
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>dog. This is however ignoring all of the
>>>>>>marketable
>>>>>>>>>>things that don't actually have to do with
>>>>>ability,
>>>>>>>>>>such as the right look, the right pedigree and
>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>right previous owner. At any rate, dogs that
>>>are
>>>>>>>>tops
>>>>>>>>>>on cats and gray fox have to come with much
>>more
>>>>>>>>>>talent than a coon dog. If you have hunted
>>with
>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>kind of dog, it's easy to see. The very best
>>>cat
>>>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>that I have been to the woods with have been:
>>1.
>>>>A
>>>>>>>>>>grade walker named Rocket. He was the very
>>best
>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>>>>truck to tree. 2. A moutnain cur named Pepper
>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>became good at cats late in life and is still
>>>>>going
>>>>>>>>>>strong at age 11. 3. A crossbred dog named
>>Camo
>>>>>>>who,
>>>>>>>>>>as the name implies, is out of Wick's Camo
>>Jug.
>>>>>>Her
>>>>>>>>>>mother is a 1/2 border collie and 1/2 Plott.
>>>She
>>>>>>>>>>caught more cats on the ground in a row than
>>any
>>>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>>>I've ever herd of. She is quite an astounding
>>>>dog
>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>also still alive. Coincedentaly Pepper, the
>>>mtn.
>>>>>>>>cur,
>>>>>>>>>>was hunted mostly on coon. She was later
>>bought
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>retrained on cat. So there are exceptions.
>On
>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>other side of things, some of the very best
>cat
>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>>come out of kennels that never run cats, only
>>>>>>coon.
>>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>don't think it's very easy to make a blanket
>>>>>>>>statement
>>>>>>>>>>on this subject but if I had to put down a bet
>>i
>>>>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>>go with the statement, They Would Be
>>Different.
>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>>feel that it has more to do with the breeder
>>>>>>though.
>>>>>>>>>Cat dogs. I think that this type of dog is very
>>>>>hard
>>>>>>>>>to find let alone have a breeding program that
>>>>>would
>>>>>>>>>produce them. Most good bare ground cat hunters
>>>>>that
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>have seen, use a pack of dogs because one just
>>>>>can't
>>>>>>>>>do it with consistency. Snow makes it easier
>but
>>>>>not
>>>>>>>>>easy.
>>>>>>>>One more thing. If leopard cur breeders can
>breed
>>>>>>dogs
>>>>>>>>that will consistently catch bare ground cat,
>>they
>>>>>>>>will become the most popular coon dog in the US.
>>>>>>> Tommy, I know that you are a serious cat hunter,
>>>>>>>always looking for a better dog. Breed is not
>your
>>>>>>>priority, catching a cat is. I have a friend,
>that
>>>>>>>catches more game, of all kinds, than any
>breeder.
>>>>He
>>>>>>>gets his dogs from shelters, watches for traits.
>>>>He's
>>>>>>>had weenie dogs, German sheps, his best was a
>long
>>>>>>>haired chiwawa SP? this dog only weighed eight
>>>>>pounds.
>>>>>>>He caught over a thousand coon, and more
>squirrel,
>>>>>>>with Brownie. I hunted with him a lot. This man
>>>>>>>wouldn't own a hound. He also catches more, and
>>>>>larger
>>>>>>>bass than anyone I know; sight fishes, not an
>>>>angler.
>>>>>>>My point, we are breeding a breed that reproduces
>>>>its
>>>>>>>likeness. Thats our goal, to breed Leopards, and
>>>>>>>improve them. Personally, I beleive our breed is
>>>>>large
>>>>>>>enough to have these differing strains, and still
>>>be
>>>>>a
>>>>>>>breed. But if I were a serious cat and gray fox
>>>>>>>hunter, I'd hunt July crosses,they can catch
>them,
>>>>>but
>>>>>>>very few make top coon dog.I say it takes a
>>smarter
>>>>>>>dog, to make a TOP NOTCH coon dog, but thats just
>>>my
>>>>>>>opipion...Rex
>>>>>>Rex, you are right. Cat dogs are just hard to find
>>>>and
>>>>>>some of the best that I have seen are mixed up
>>every
>>>>>>which way. Also, most were owned by an exceptional
>>>>>>hunter. The latter may have been the main
>>>ingredient.
>>>>>>Maybe the reason I have so much trouble. I don't
>>>know
>>>>>>whether it takes a smarter dog to make a top notch
>>>>>>coon dog but I think that a top notch cat dog is
>>>>>>harder to find. I don't think that the style of a
>>>top
>>>>>>cat dog would suit a lot of coon hunters. However,
>>>>>>this type dog would catch all the coons one would
>>>>want
>>>>>>but not coon dog style. Julys are hard to come by
>>>>>>around here. Don't know of anyone who has running
>>>>>>dogs. Too many roads and new houses. Would like to
>>>>>>find a half July that would look up but I got
>>enough
>>>>>>young dogs to mess with now. I also do not like
>the
>>>>>>way most Julys are wired. At my age there will be
>>>>>>more coon hunting than cat hunting from now on. I
>>>>like
>>>>>>the style of my young leps so far. They will do ok
>>>on
>>>>>>coon and, if they do good on cat, that is the
>>bonus.
>>>>>>Had a good cat race last night but likely went to
>>>>>>ground in rock ledge. Had my mountain curs on it
>>and
>>>>>>they drove it hard. They will not tree in a hole
>>>>>>unless they can see something. Got them as pups
>and
>>>>>>hoped they would be silent on cat. They are silent
>>>on
>>>>>>coon but flat open on cat and can move one out.
>>They
>>>>>>can cold trail a little buy won't work a cold
>track
>>>>>>very long.
>>>>>>tp
>>>>> Tommy, I'm with you on finding good dogs; cat or
>>>coon
>>>>>dog. Some coon dogs can be found, but not many of
>>the
>>>>>kind we like. Can a trained cat dog be bought, in
>>our
>>>>>part of the world ?? I'm sure they are out west,
>but
>>>>>how about around here? Russ Barney gave me a
>trained
>>>>>cat dog, out of a female I sent out there, and his
>>>>>Buster dog. She was a nice dog, but had no idea how
>>>to
>>>>>hunt around here, roads,houses,etc.She got ran
>over,
>>>>>crossing a hiway last spring.Was after trailing a
>>>cat,
>>>>>at a good clip, and it turned up the creek toward a
>>>>>busy HWY. Tried to catch up but didnt get there in
>>>>>time. Burying good dogs has just about done me in.
>>>>>Around here, a dog MUST handle perfect, or keep
>>shock
>>>>>collar on to p[revent this sort of thing, our
>>country
>>>>>is going fast. How well do you like the Mtn Curs?
>>Rex
>>>> Good dogs from our west sometimes don't work out so
>>>>well here or they take some time to adjust. It works
>>>>the other way too. The mountain curs do ok but they
>>>>don't hunt out like I would like but that is the
>>>>nature of most of them. They will not work a cold
>>>>trail very long. They can smell a bad track but will
>>>>not work it for a long time. They are silent on coon
>>>>but flat open on a jumped cat. Wish they were silent
>>>>on jumped cat. They tree back off tree and wind real
>>>>good. If something moves in tree they see it. They
>>are
>>>>fast.
>>>>They are brother and sister and not yet three. Got
>>>>some learning to do. I don't get on enough cats
>>around
>>>>here. Problems with locked gates and deer leases
>that
>>>>I used not to have. You got to run a lot of cats
>for
>>>>dogs to learn how to run them. They are smart or the
>>>>the female is.
>>>>tp
>>> The Julys I had were silent trailers, and tight on a
>>>jumped cat or gray fox. Poor cold trailers,but sure
>>>could keep them moving when jumped,the closer they
>got
>>>the less they barked.Knew by scent when a fox was
>>>tired and sinply hushed and caught them. Had two that
>>>treed good. NONE that handled! Just about couldn't
>>>catch them unless they were bayed, treed, or run
>down.
>>>Most of these were bred out midwest, didn't bark near
>>>enough to suit fox hunters here. There is something
>to
>>>be said, about using dogs from local breeders. Guess
>>>this brings full circle to what Perry questioned?
>Rex
>>
>>some interesting posts! thanks all perry
>Rex, have used running walkers. Most running walkers
>or running dogs that I have seen are just not wired
>right for me. Kind of like the ones you described.
>However, I saw some Triggs out of California that
>were level headed, big built and loud mouth and would
>tree but not hard and were silent on cold track. They
>were good dogs and when crossed on treeing walkers,
>they produced really good dogs.
>tp
Yeah, I,ve talked with several guys out there that use that breeding for varmint dogs. There is also a strain of "Treeing Trigg" I,ve read about out there, was reg way back 1940s. The guys I hear from cross in a little Treeing Walker, in the Triggs. I,d say they are real similiar to the Julys I had. But you know, Tommy, most Julys are about worthless now, been bred to run long hrs in a pen, not for hunting. But I,m sure there were some really good ones before the pens came along. Why do these people breed the smarts out of a good strain ?? Thats what special about these Leps, real smart. And I don't think it'l make them dumd to call them a hound, only if breeders breed them that way, and Idon't know any that want that! Rex

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