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Date Posted: Wed, May 23, 09:05:11am CST
Author: david p
Author Host/IP: ip66.lacrosse.lib.wi.us / 204.145.232.66
Subject: Re: About "black" for Sparkieg...
In reply to: jerry 's message, "Re: About "black" for Sparkieg..." on Tue, May 22, 12:33:46pm CST

>>>Sparkieg...The question about black is really one
>>>about "no-trim"...There are solid blacks and dogs
>>>without tan or brindle trim and both are cropping up
>>>for the same genetic reason.
>>>The "no-trim" is not a Leopard trait and it came from
>>>the Clark-bred dogs in general, not just Jug. I wish
>>>we had included a question about that, but at the
>time
>>>of the survey we didn't have the information to have
>>>asked the question properly. Now we know a little
>>>more,because we know merle with/trim and black
>>>with/trim "Clark-bred" dogs are throwing "no-trim"
>>>dogs, which excludes the possibility of its being a
>>>"dominant trait. I did not know if it was a
>>>"dominant", "recessive", or incomplete dominance. It
>>>is pretty clear that it is not a real "dominant" at
>>>this time.
>>>When you asked (and I am quoting you): "Should all of
>>>these dogs out of these litters be single registered
>>>or that you you guys that put out the survey have
>some
>>>of these dogs and they don't need to be questined."
>>>First... I find this more than a little insulting. I
>>>have no way to know what your tone is here, but it is
>>>insulting the way it is written, which you may not
>>>have intended. Jed and I do each have a double-Jug
>>>pup, but this had nothing to do with our not
>including
>>>a question about "no trim". You and I both know
>people
>>>who are in our association who own one or more "brand
>>>X" dogs. We have had absolutely nothing to do with
>any
>>>Clark dogs coming into the breed. This is something
>we
>>>inherited. As for Jug specifically, the vote (at the
>>>annual meeting) was UNANIMOUS to register Jug, but
>not
>>>with the phony pedigree.
>>>I have said for several years that I had never seen a
>>>Clark-bred dog that was a bear dog. A couple of guys
>>>have criticised me for those statements, in spite of
>>>the fact that I have always explained that I had
>never
>>>known of one that had had an adequate chance (to
>>>become a bear dog). I want to see for myself if they
>>>have the grit. Presently there are four "Clark-bred
>>>dogs in the right hands to have the opportunity to
>>>prove the "grit" question. I have no reason to
>believe
>>>thay don't have the grit to be a bear dog, but I DO
>>>want to see for myself. My owning this "double-Jug"
>>>dog is simply my way of giving one of them a chance
>>>for my own information. Whether or not I will use
>this
>>>dog or any in my own breeding is still a question.
>Jed
>>>can speak for himself, but I will say that he has
>>>owned 3, and only one is under any consideration for
>>>breeding. One is a really good dog that he still
>owns,
>>>but she won't be used for breeding, because she is a
>>>double merle. The other has been spayed and given
>>>away. I have been curious about the Clark-bred dogs
>>>for a long time, because I have seen several that
>were
>>>the real deal as coon dogs.
>>>Sparkieg...You may have more questions. I will try to
>>>answer if you do. I would be happy to talk with you
>on
>>>the phone, as well as answering here. We have a
>unique
>>>and wonderful breed of dogs that can sell themselves.
>>>I would like to be a part of promoting the image. Our
>>>member numbers are dwindling, but that is not the
>>>Leopards' fault.
>>>Randy
>>
>>I will add a few comments, just because I have some
>>experience with the clark bred dogs. I am not a bear
>>hunter, but have been around bear dogs and bear
>>hunters my entire dog hunting years. I will be very
>>surprised if the clark dogs make bear dogs from what I
>>have seen. They were not bred to be bear dogs, and as
>>far as I know, have not one bear bred dog in their
>>ancestry.
>>
>>The remarkable miracle to me is that they were not
>>bred to be bobcat dogs either, but three that I know
>>of have been hunted on bobcat and shown themselves
>>able to catch bobcats on a pretty regular basis. The
>>two that I came to know very well lack a couple things
>>for being a complete and well balanced bobcat dog
>>though. I am listing them here, not to slam the dogs
>>because they are two of my favorite dogs, but by way
>>of passing on knowledge that took a lot of money and
>>time and energy to aquire.
>>
>>1)They are not tough enough. This is an attitude.
>>Imagine two kids (a and b) on the football team.
>>A)One breaks his thumb and doesnt tell the coach so he
>>can still play. Then he suffers and concusion, cant
>>remember the plays, but he wont tell anyone because he
>>wants to still play.
>>The other one B) breaks his thumb and immediately
>>asks to be taken out of the game.
>>
>>My Clark dogs were kinda like the second kid. It is
>>not unreasonable at all that the kid be taken out of
>>the game. In fact it is the logical, intellegent
>>thing to do. Yet I have always needed the first boy
>>in my dog pack as far as attitude and desire. The
>>Clark dogs are almost too intellegent and having
>>human-like qualities to intentionally punish their
>>body in these ways.
>>
>>One of the two had enough experience to get to the
>>point where she could just about catch a bobcat
>>whenever she wanted it. This is the only dog of this
>>caliber I have been close to in my almost 30 years of
>>dogging. YEt, she got to the point where, if she did
>>not feel on top of her game that day, she would tag
>>along. She got tired of facing those big bobcats all
>>by herself. This, on top of the fact that when she
>>did bay a bobcat, she stood back so far that their was
>>no way in God's green earth that this bobcat could
>>make contact with her. She would stay behind the cat
>>as well. Smart dog? Extremely smart dog. The
>>smartest tree dog I have ever worked with. Her style
>>of baying far back and behind worked perfect with
>>another dog that would get up close and bay in the
>>face, as the cat felt like his back door was blocked,
>>and he would hold perfectly in one spot (unlike the
>>'moving bay' where the cat keeps slipping out the back
>>door.)
>>
>>One of these two dogs had a coat so thin that I would
>>have to pull her out of the box if temps got below 0
>>degrees. Yet I have had thin coated dogs that would
>>not hesitate to come out of the box to go hunting on a
>>sub zero day. Not very smart of these other dogs
>>really, as body parts can freeze.
>>The Clark dogs are more human than that. Would you go
>>out hunting in that weather with no clothes on? I
>>doubt it.
>>
>>These dogs might not even be typical for the Clark
>>dogs. I have not seen enough to know. But if they
>>are, these are some of the reasons I dont beleive they
>>could possibly make great bear dogs. They are not
>>tough enough to shake off difficult or uncomfortable
>>situations, and they are not going to intentionally
>>put themselves where they are going to get hurt.
>>
>>To me it is a mystery why dogs bred for coon would
>>have some of the track moving ability that I
>>witnessed. They have an uncanny ability to get
>>themselves to where the game is, and wrap up the deal
>>in less time than another dog might take. I have seen
>>them leave the track completely when they think they
>>can get to the animal quicker by doing that. I have
>>seen them locate and begin treeing from a distance and
>>come into the tree treeing while other dogs are
>>milling. I have seen them locate and tree without
>>ever putting their nose to the ground or to the tree
>>trunk. I have seen a couple things that to me were so
>>remarkable that I have no way of explaining the way
>>they came up with the game, and I watched it happen.
>>
>>I have owned 5 Leopards and 3 "camus curs" who had a
>>famous Leopard for a father or granfather. Of those 8
>> dogs, Three of them were direct daughters of Wicks
>>Camo Jug. Of those 8 dogs only 3 were not culled.
>>These three have gone on to become better than average
>>dogs. Remember, I am not a leopard cur man, I am just
>>a hunter. Those three dogs not culled were the Clark
>>bred dogs.
>>
>>I have watched two direct descentants of Jug be
>>culled. Both were male. They were not mine, and the
>>decision was not mine.
>>
>>I am going to share an opinion here as an outsider. I
>>am sticking my neck out, because I dont have to try
>>and be politically correct. The preasure is off me,
>>as I have no dogs now, and can not hunt. I dont want
>>to hurt anyones feelings, yet will speak my opinion
>>here according to my own limited experience, and
>>limited intellegence. I have not had the opportunity
>>to experience every strain of Leopard. Yet I cant
>>immagine that there are too many that exceed the
>>intellegence and the natural giftedness of the two Jug
>>daughters that I am most familiar with. I have never
>>owned dogs that were more gifted. (I have owned dogs
>>with more desire, and sometimes, desire can make up
>>for lack of giftedness.)
>>
>>If people dont want the Clark bred dogs included in
>>the Leopard Cur world, then kick them out. Get on
>>with it. Dont even blink an eye. There is no
>>registry in the world that can tell me what those dogs
>>are. I have seen what they are in the woods.
>>Those dogs can stand on their own ability and do not
>>need the support of this registry. Do not feel guilty
>>about removing them from the registry if that is what
>>folks want. People with Clark dogs: let it go.
>>
>>John Clark never registered them with ALCBA. I doubt
>>if he would now. In my opinion, being kicked out of
>>the ALCBA might very well be the best possible thing
>>that could happen to those dogs. That might motivate
>>someone to start a registry for the Clark dogs, call
>>them "Leopard Hounds" get them included in the UKC,
>>compete with other hounds, and let the whole world see
>>what these dogs can do. They need a bigger forum than
>>15 dogs at the world hunt, and they deserve to be seen
>>by more people than the closed, bitter, back biting,
>>and dying secret society of the Leopard Cur world will
>>allow. They are not perfect. Not even close. But
>>they are good dogs.
>>
>>And to the Leopard folks. IF you think maybe a strong
>>outcross might not hurt the ALCBA dogs any, Look no
>>further. If your goal is dogs with trim though, might
>>have to stay away from these dogs. Sincerly,
>>David P
>
>
>Honest, first person account, till you injected this,
>"closed, bitter, back biting, and dying secret society
>of the Leopard Cur world ".
>
>Who peed in your lemonade?????
>
>Jerry

Jerry, yes, I thought a lot about that line as I drove truck all through the night and I wished I could take it back. I wished I could have come up with some words that would sound kind and convincing and winsome but that would say basically the same thing.

When I started seriously looking into the Leopard Curs years ago, I almost immediately encountered something that could be called grudges, could be called jelousy maybe, could even be called hatred if you get right down to it. I saw grudges that had gone on for many years, and may even have been passed down from the old to the young and are now second generation grudges. Initially, my reaction was that I want nothing to do with all this, and I walked away from it forever, I thought. Well, eventually I realized that reaction was not fair to the dogs. I decided I needed to give them an honest try.

Since then, I have witnessed the efforts of some intentionally trying to undermine the honest efforts of others to move the breed forward. I have seen people intentionally setting out to deceive, and/or to withhold the truth from others. I have seen people who dont know the whole story insisting that they do, and people who do know the story insisting that they dont. I have seen fear in those who would like to tell the story, but they know that doing so would have some pretty negative consequences within Leopard Cur society. I have seen that those who are willing to speak openly about things will eventually learn to shut up, or move on. Those who notice a problem, become the problem. I have seen new people veiwed with suspision until it can be determined whose side they will be taking. I have heard slogans like "there are no freinds in breeding". Well, why not? If that is true, then quit breeding because you are sacrificing your life for these dogs. And realy folks, they dont give all that much back. We like to think they do, but really they take, and take, and take, until you have no freinds or family left. If you let them, they will take everything you own, and then some. I am not the greatest with words, but I am just wishing that somehow I could help people see that these attitudes and beleifs are some of the reasons why so few people remain active in the association. These are not the only reasons, but I beleive they are a major factor. I know this from my own reaction, and from watching the reactions of new people that just got a Leopard or who are interested in one.

I dont know how it got this way. I am real sorry though for those men who did not receive the nurture,love and discipline that they needed as children. They learned a few methods of survival on the playground in 1st grade, and they were almost appropriate for back then. The fortunate kids got disciplined when they still used those same types of interaction when they were in the third grade and in the fifth grade. The unfortunate ones are still using the same methods of human interaction at 60 years old. Really, they need a good willow switch a few times across the back of their bare legs. Well, that's what they needed back when it would have shaped their character.

I wish we could grow up somehow into mature adults who know how to forgive, and give, and make sacrifices for others, and know how to practice the golden rule of treating others the same way you want to be treated, who realize that people and freindships are more important than dogs, who would not build their whole identity in their dogs so that any perceived rip on the dogs goes into the deepest parts of the soul.
They are just dogs, people. They are not you. You are not them. If someone doesnt like your dogs, it doesnt mean they dont like you.

I'm sorry Jerry, and others. This stuff sits stewing in me for the longest time, and then bubbles out in ways that offend people rather than winning people. My hope is that there is one person out there somewhere who will be able to see through my inability to express my self in a winsome manner, and read this stuff and actually get something positive out of it.

This is one of the things that seperates us from animals: we are able to float above, so to speak (in our immagination), and actually observe and evaluate our own behavior as individuals, and also as a group. ("look at me, what am I doing, why am I doing it, what made me react in that way, is this the same way a child would react?")

Self Awareness is the first step. Most of us are not ready for it. But maybe one person is. That would be a good start. Sincerely, David P

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