| Subject: Re: Lake Ontario Salmon |
Author:
King Davy
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Date Posted: 12:04:33 02/13/02 Wed
In reply to:
Undertaker
's message, "Re: Lake Ontario Salmon" on 07:27:43 02/13/02 Wed
>>>Well, King Davy I don't know if you'll get to read
>>>this since my last post to you didn't get on here. I
>>>would like to respond to the fact that OH,
>>>PA,WI,IN,IL,MI and MN have changed there spending
>more
>>>towards the steelhead fishery because that is what
>the
>>>fishermen want, not what a handful of shop owners and
>>>guides want. We have had the pacific salmon program
>>>for many years now and quite frankly, I don't see why
>>>we should keep it. For the last two years the major
>>>run of salmon have stayed at the mouth of the river
>>>and very few salmon have gone up the river. If you
>>>folks want to pen raise them and have them hang out
>in
>>>the mouths of the rivers that,s fine with me, just
>>>make sure that the program isn't heavily leaning
>>>towards the pacifics. Stock equal numbers of
>>>steelhead. Just once I would like to see the fishery
>>>focus as much attention on the steelhead program as
>it
>>>has on the salmon program. How about letting us spend
>>>the next several years growing the steelhead fishery.
>>>My guess is no way because if the steelhead program
>>>got bigger than the salmon program everyone would
>>>wonder why we stocked pacifics in the first place.
>>>This whole pacific salmon program was just a pet
>>>project dreamed up by a few state fishery people. If
>>>you fish the area then you must see that changes need
>>>to be made. How can you say that the fishery is great
>>>the way it is and that you wouldn't change the type
>of
>>>fish we raise. You better read up on what is
>happening
>>>to the west of us because I don't want to be sitting
>>>here 5 years from now saying if we had only... If
>what
>>>we have now is what everyone wants to keep in place
>>>then we will all be losers in the end. Our fishery is
>>>a joke worldwide and everyone knows it. Other states
>>>are saying lets not end up with a Pulaski situation.
>>>We made all the mistakes for the whole world to learn
>>>from, so why not let us fix it. Why have a heavy
>>>number of fish and people for 4-5 weeks when the
>>>salmon run when we could have steady fishing 8-10
>>>months a year. I'm sure the shops and guides would
>>>rather have steady income year round instead of
>>>crammed into 4weeks a season. Many bank on that 4
>week
>>>period and then when it didn't happen two years in a
>>>row has got to hurt. So, how about it, lets try it my
>>>way for a while and see what happens. It can't get
>any
>>>worse since the fishery is in the dumps already. The
>>>DEC doesn't have it down to a science either, they
>>>just keep trying different things every year and we
>>>have seen what it has produced. It is time we all
>>>stopped walking on eggshells about this subject and
>>>get down to the job of correcting this fishery.
>>
>>
>>
>>Undertaker...my friend...we do agree on many issues
>>here. I agree the salmon river and pulaski during the
>>salmon run is a joke...but that's because the people
>>who are fishing it ARE A JOKE. The sad thing there is
>>no easy fix for people who intend to come to our
>>rivers and gig fish. We can pass all the laws we
>>want...but unless we make stiffer fines...that
>>stick...we aren't going to change it. I fish the
>>salmon river more in the summer months for
>>skamania...and Atlantics...then I do in the winter.
>>And PA and Ohio are NOT year round steelhead stream
>>fisheries ...where the salmon river actually is.
>>
>>The state did in 1992 upgrade the steelhead program
>>and down grade the salmon program due to forage base
>>problems. In the 80's and early 90's 30% of the
>>steelhead stocked in lake Ontario returned to the
>>salmon river. The salmon actually gets MORE steelhead
>>stocked now then back then...and less then 5% are
>>returning. We have a problem with the steelhead in the
>>salmon river...that nobody has figured out yet. Right
>>now between the 750K chambers creek fish...and the
>>300K domestic fish NY state stocks over a million
>>steelies a year...into Lake Ontario.
>>
>>Pen rearing has a mix of kings and steelies...but it's
>>the LAKE FISHERMEN who are doing the stocking. The
>>Stream fishermen...are doing A LOT OF TALKING...but no
>>action. I fish steelhead all year round....and if we
>>didn't put a single king in lake ontario ever
>>again...we still won't get steelhead in the salmon
>>river till Nov. through May. So you'll be sitting
>>around waiting through Sept. and most of Oct. to get
>>fish.
>>
>>Here's another thing to think about. I know in the
>>genny...we get banner steelhead fishing when we have a
>>banner king run. Remember...our steelhead are "WINTER"
>>run fish...that's just the way it is for this strain.
>>You may not see any steelhead without kings till even
>>later then Nov. They absolutely follow the kings in to
>>feed heavily on eggs.
>>
>>You can't compare our program to PA's and Ohio. They
>>have some very nice spring fed streams that cool down
>>a little faster then the salmon river and other
>>surrounding rivers. The fish aren't coming in when the
>>water is in the 70's. The salmon river stays warm for
>>much longer then Elk and Walnut in the fall.
>>
>>You and Ken keep missing the point that this fishery
>>is not JUST for stream fihermen. Go ahead and try to
>>lobby for the shutting down of the king salmon
>>program...you have that right...but I'll bet you a
>>trip to Alaska...you won't get to first base with your
>>plan. The lake has a powerful lobby...has been in
>>place long before the stream fishing ever got popular.
>>Back in the 80's when I was fishing the salmon river
>>you wouldn't count 10 guys on the water in late Nov.
>>Yet there were over 750K boat trips a year on the lake
>>to fish for trout and salmon. That has receeded quite
>>a bit I'll admit as people try different things, but
>>there is still 250K trips a year...with a lot of time
>>and money involved.
>>
>>Finally...I have to go back to my soap box....you are
>>placing the blame on a fish...how can you miss the
>>fact that as in hunting....the fishermen have caused
>>the problem with how they treat this fishery. I
>>totally agree you go to Erie...no more jerks ripping
>>fish...for the most part. Same up in the Huron and
>>Ontario streams across the lake. I was in the House of
>>Hardy in London not to long ago...and they just MOCKED
>>the hell out of the salmon river. But not because of
>>the salmon...but because of the jerks that snag fish
>>AT the salmon.
>>
>>The English revere all salmon....they love to go to
>>Alaska and the NW and fly fish for them....and they
>>would love to come to the Salmon river and fish for
>>them...but they won't put up with the snaggers...so
>>they don't come and spend all that big money.
>>
>>Until the fishing community "laymen" like you and I
>>and Ken start dealing with the poachers of this
>>fishery and put peer pressure on them to either learn
>>to fish...or leave the sport...we won't have any
>>changes. There are laymen and guides linning steelhead
>>all winter long. Just because there isn't a shoulder
>>to shoulder crowd on the river in Feb...I can tell you
>>that there are plenty of non sportsman like activities
>>going on. If you guys fish Erie...let me ask you one
>>thing. How many long liners you ever see fish those
>>places???????? NOt a one...at least I've never seen
>>it. Not there...not in Huron...not in Ontario...hey
>>not at the Oak..or the Genny...or the other good
>>streams in the western basin. We have a poor class of
>>guys fishing the salmon river raping ALL the
>>fish...especially the steelies.
>>
>>You guys can do what you want...but if I were
>>you....you might want to think about what we at LOSA
>>are trying to do. TEACH people to come over from the
>>dark side. Teach them how to fish. The fish are not
>>the problem...the so called anglers who use methods
>>that mame or kill these fish are the problem.
>
>Davy, there are a lot of us that would like to get
>involved and donate time to the fishery, but not for
>the benefit of filling the river full of kings only to
>have snaggers come in the fall.
>There is noway that the pacific program would ever be
>dropped completely, but I would like to see it slowly
>cut back over the next few years. Other species of
>steelhead or rainbows are available to run the river
>at different times. Maybe we should look at the brown
>trout for fall fishing options. We use to have great
>runs of steelhead in the spring and I am talking about
>the early 80's. As for the problem of the fish
>returning, its probably a problem with the way they
>are stocked. I know fish have been raised in Oswego
>habor and the returns to the river are still poor, but
>lets not go there now because Oswego river is a whole
>other problem to be discussed later.
>Like I said there are a lot of us that would like to
>help out, you just say the word and we'll be there.
>But the fishery cannot be all about the pacific
>salmon. I think the fact that we haven't been asked to
>help out is because some people don't want to hear our
>input on the situation. Hell, T.U. was driven out
>years ago when they tried to make inroads to the
>groups and organizations that control the way the
>fishery goes. I would like to meet with any and every
>group involved in the fishery but their meetings are
>not public knowledge, there are alot of things going
>on behind closed doors. So, we need to get these dirty
>little issues out in the open to get them taken care
>of. Like the special group they put together to decide
>on the new regs for the upcoming season, several of
>them being some of the worst offenders on the salmon
>river. What's up with that?
>
>A large black salmon is an easy target for any snagger
>in the river. The only way to break this chain of
>"inbred" snaggers is to remove the one thing that
>keeps bringing them back generation after generation.
>I guaranty, you take the pacifics out of the river for
>a few years you'll just about wipe out the snagging
>problem.
Well Undfertaker...I don't doubt that if salmon weren't around...many people would go away. It's a quick solution to the snagging problem...and I agree it would work...but again...it's just not all about the salmon river or the stream anglers. There are several special interest groups. Why things don't get done...is that these groups are fragmented.
The bang on your plan is it's simply not realistic. The several thousand anglers who come here from ice out till Oct. to boat fish just aren't going for this program of getting rid of kings. So if it's not realistic...it's just another stall situation. Probably the other way to get this done...is shut down salmon spawning season to fishing. So the kings come back but don't allow fishing from 9/1 to 11/15. I mean shut it down completely. That would get rid of the bad anglers also. But that is un-realistic cause the merchants would be out of business.
You have to keep asking yourself the same question...why can't people JUST FISH! Snagging has been outlawed for seven years. Why can't the legal ethical fishing community put enough peer pressure on the bandits to drive them out?
I'm pretty close to the guys who are making decisions on the salmon river/lake Ontario fishery...and there has been plenty of thoughts about getting rid of ALL pacific fish...including STEELHEADs....and just stock Atlantic salmon and brown trout. So be careful what you wish for.
This is a great discussion...and believe me...while I like to fish for kings...I absolutely believe you are right that if kings weren't around neither would the trash fishermen. But there are just to many other irons in the fire when it comes to this program
As far as groups...we publish our meetings every month on several web sites...and we have our own web site under fishsalmonriver.com. Look under the links sections...and you'll find LOSA. We have a meeting in Rochester this weekend. 2 to 4 PM directions are on the site.
In March we are planning a meeting in the Fairhaven area...and we plan to have Fran Verdoleva, Les Wedge, and Dan Bishop attend. Les is the steelie biologist and Dan...the chinny biologist at Altmar. You guys might want to try and attend that one to talk to them and our group. Our meetings are third Sat. of the month.
I don't know why the brown trout doesn't prosper better and run the salmon river....like they do here in the west. I catch a lot of browns in the summer fishing the salmon river...but they are stream browns not lake fish.
There is always room for improvement. Maybe I'm people think I'm taking hits off the crack pipe when I say this...but to me the best situation is to have all three pacific species in place...and to wipe out the snaggers with tough laws, (BIG Fines)...peer pressure, and conservation. It works in Canada...it works in Alaska, it works in Oregon and Washington, Idaho, Montana...you name it. But the great lakes is way behind in WHACKING the dregs who rape our fishery. You start hitting a guy for a $1000 bucks...and take all his gear...and he won't be back to play the snagging game any more. Even a moron hasn't got a grand to piss away.
But that's a slow process...it shouldn't be. People should just obey the law...I can see your point...get rid of the fish get rid of the problem...but who are you punishing? Guys like me and my friends who love to fish for kings...and the 1000's of people who lake fish for them. That just doesn't feel right.
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