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Date Posted: 09:10:50 10/23/07 Tue
Author: Oleander
Subject: I have a question about hte pass...-->
In reply to: pamelalass 's message, "I agree completely Jane. In spite of the barriers between prisoner and jailer, before "the pass", there was genuine mutual admiration and friendship. And Jamie recognized his own need for intellectual stimulation and camaraderie. Didn't Jamie also remember everything about meeting John at age 16, and that he'd thought him quite a brave, if naive enough to be fooled, lad even then?" on 07:02:14 10/23/07 Tue

In Voyager, when John makes the pass, Jaime later "retaliates" with the whole tartan episode which gets him whipped. Jaime later says he felt he had no choice- doing what he did ensured he would never be tempted or something again. I don't have voyager with me, but I was wondering what you all made of this scene- it read to me like Jaime was in fact tempted by the pass, not sexually, but for other reasons...I'll have to find the passage to be sure. Does anyone else remember this?

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I don't think Jamie was tempted so much as revulsed. It is my impression he claimed the Tartan as a way to completely sever the relationship with John, to be sure John understood the gulf between them. By reminding John of his prisoner status it is then John's duty to care for him honorably. Pressuring a sexual relationship would be bad form. As to Jamie being tempted, he assures Claire during a discussion of men in prison using each other or going mad he asserts quite vehemently that he was never tempted to turn to another man no matter how he yearned for physical contact. Jamie's reaction to John's hand on his was so immediate and violent I don't think there was ever even a moment of temptation even for relief from the company of the other Scots. He'd rather be an honorable prisoner than gain priviledges through any means. His dinners with Harry and John were seen by the others as his due because he was their chief and it was then that he spoke for them.. (NT) -- kgp, 09:34:14 10/23/07 Tue
- See, I totally agree with that. But on my last re read of Voyager, one sentence stood out to me, and took me by surprise. Shoot I wish I had my book with me, i'd go find it ;) oh well, ill post it later! (NT) -- Oleander, 11:14:45 10/23/07 Tue
  - Karen or anyone else - do you remember when this came up a while back, and there was discussion of this same question? It centered on the same word - - "temptation" - - which makes me think there must indeed be something in the text to suggest it. I don't have it to hand, but I vaguely remember reading something where Jamie confesses that he was tempted at Ardsmuir not by John specifically, and not truly sexually, but by the thought that others around him had given in to sexual frustration and temptation, and he was suffering a vast craving for the touch of a human hand. I also think he was harsh on himself for having ever given in to the temptation to enjoy the evenings he did spend with John, while his men were caged in the cell. He must have wished he had held himself completely aloof. Although he was living in a cell with them, he was isolated from the men because of his leadership and care for the group as a whole. >>>> -- pamelalass, 14:42:48 10/23/07 Tue
    - Oh, glory, I can't remember exactly where but he is explaining it to Claire and talking about how he imagines Christ must have felt, apart from the others, longing to be touched. All those years and no one would even consider a casual touch, a pat on the shoulder or nudge going out to the peat bogs. He didn't wish for sexual contact but only for human contact. (NT) -- kgp, 15:35:32 10/23/07 Tue
      - It's the passage in which he thinks of the painting of Christ, the Sacred Heart, and says that the painter must have understood Christ's loneliness. I think it's in ABoSaA but wouldn't swear to it. Anybody? (NT) -- CatherineM., 17:42:11 10/23/07 Tue
        It is, I think also in context of explaining Tom Christie to Claire. (NT) -- kgp, 19:13:35 10/23/07 Tue
    - I think what John said about the flogging in DOA was really telling.... "but that was not enough for him; he wished a final severance. And so he deliberately brought about an occasion so drastic that it must alter our relation irrevocably and prevent any chace of a friendship between us." (NT) -- Jane, 15:36:54 10/23/07 Tue
  - Oleander - I think I found your reference . It is just after the flogging. I read it as the temptation not of flesh but to rise above prisoner status and accept what little luxuries there were in Ardsmuir, the temptation of priviledge rather than flesh. Prior to this he had been struggling withthe transition from the Governor's quarters back to the cell and the other Scots. John relieved him of the dichotomy of his existence.>>> -- kgp, 05:43:09 10/24/07 Wed
    - THank you! Yes this is the passage that I was thinking of. And I think you are right, about the temptation to rise above his prisoner status, to have wanted to be friends with John and speak to him as an equal. (NT) -- Oleander, 06:17:09 10/24/07 Wed
    - Yes! That's it -- he was tempted just to get some measure of relief from the burden of care for all those men in the cell, and the weary, cold, aching discomfort of it. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:19:48 10/24/07 Wed

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