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• QOTD FOR MONDAY OCTOBER 29TH -- Oleander, 20:15:29 10/28/07 Sun [13]
  The following quote is taken from LORD JOHN AND THE PRIVATE MATTER, Chapter 9: Molly Walk, copyright 2003 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  What he had forgotten in the years since then, though, was the simple, unutterable comfort of existing- for however brief a time- without pretense. With Byrd's appearance, he felt that he had hastily clapped on a mask, but wore it now somewhat awry.
  
  In the time after Hector's death, John tried to lose himself- through alcohol or men, in the Molly Walk's of London. Perhaps as a result of the scandal which led to his temporary banishment, John has carefully structured his life around a lie- who he really is.
  

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  • Sorry about the typo! oops... (NT) -- Oleander, 20:16:26 10/28/07 Sun
  • Good timing - to bring up masks just before Hallowe'en. This was also a part of the sermon yesterday. The masks we wear in our lives, how we project ourselves to others, how we want to be seen. John's mask is for his safety as well as the honor of his family. (NT) -- kgp, 05:04:28 10/29/07 Mon
  • This brings up a question -- as closely as they exist together, does Tom know about his master's orientation? Tom takes such good care of Lord John, they are so close even to the point of Tom taking liberties with his position by scolding and questioning John. How could he not know or at least suspect? If he does, I would imagine he would also be protective of LJ. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 06:58:23 10/29/07 Mon
    • I think John is discreet enough that Tom does not absolutely know. He is already accustomed to John spending nights away from the house when the regiment is gearing for campaign that he wouldn't question him staying at the new brother's as it is closer to quarters. Percy was also discreet in the two notes he sent to John, not signing them, etc. I think Tom takes scolding liberties as part of his duties. Doesn't Benedicta even at one point show concern over the effort of the staff? I think it is a characteristic of the family that staff are considered in a fashion as family also. On campaign, Tom effectively holds 'home' for John. He's also shown himself to be quite resourceful and intelligent, especially in PM. John might encourage open comment from him. (NT) -- kgp, 07:29:41 10/29/07 Mon
      • Servants would have lived very closely with the family, and be more or less permanent. Remember that John speculates at one point that a servant might have been involved in the Duke's death, but simply isn't able to countenance the thought. But Percy was a member of the family, and John's friend. Unless Tom actually saw them embracing or having sex, he wouldn't be likely to think there was anything unusual about their relationship. (NT) -- maddiej, 11:55:59 10/29/07 Mon
        • I agree. I tend to think that even should Tom suspect (which I don't necessarily think he does), it would never be something John would be able to be open about- even in the sense of knowing someone else knows. Jaime, Clair, Bree- these end up being the only people in his life who know him as he is- despite his wonderful ability to fit into society and hide his true nature, the very fact that he must always pretend must be emotionally exhausting at times. Even if it is second nature. (NT) -- Oleander, 13:33:17 10/29/07 Mon
          • I also think Tom has such a regard for John's integrity both as a man and as employer that he wouldn't countenance such a thought. Guarding one's words is exhausting. Perhaps by his rank and status his daily conversations with subordinates would never approach the topic and it's only in social circumstances with someone such as Quarry that he need truly be on his toes. (NT) -- kgp, 16:25:05 10/29/07 Mon
      • Poor Tom, I remember someone had come up to him and put his "thing" in his hand and kissed him and tried to put his hand down Tom's pants. When Lord John got to him Tom had tears on his cheeks and asked John why someone would do such a thing. Tom was an innocent, hardly more than a boy, and it was very brave of him to insist on bringing John to the house as frightened as he must have been to be left alone out in that neighborhood. I was proud of John when he told that haughty doorman that poor mud spattered Tom was his valet! (NT) -- Jane, 05:54:25 10/30/07 Tue
        • I do love Tom so. His innocence and fear in this scene are wonderfully done as well. (NT) -- Oleander, 06:00:52 10/30/07 Tue
        • I think his tears were for his brother, though, not himself. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 10:29:46 10/30/07 Tue
          • I agree- I loved his concern for his brother. (NT) -- Oleander, 13:38:58 10/30/07 Tue
            • Sometime during his "interview" with Caswell John does remember to ask about Tom's brother. Thank goodness he'd only visited Lavendar house once and then only to deliver a message to T. Seems Tom's fears for his brother (at least in that regard) were unfounded, he was just a loyal and faithful servant, just like Tom. (NT) -- Jane, 14:48:18 10/31/07 Wed
  
  

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• QOTD FOR TUESDAY OCTOBER 30TH -- Oleander, 05:59:13 10/30/07 Tue [12]
  The following quote is taken from DRUMS OF AUTUMN, Chapter 28: Heated Conversation, copyright 1997 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  
  "Well, it's not by choice," I said. I came to the end the thread and tucked it neatly into the ball. "I was born that way."
  "So was I," he said very softly.
  I didn't answer; I didn't think he had spoken to be heard.
  
  John and Clair get an opportunity to get to know one another when John has the measles. Even as a modern woman, Clair was raised in the 30's and 40's- not yet times of sexual freedom, much less for gay men and women. Prior to this conversation, how does Clair understand Johns feelings for Jaime?
  

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  • I might need to clarify- I do wonder sometimes if our "modern" perspective doesn't colour the way we see Clair and her reactions to things. Because Clair is the most modern aspect of this story (until Bree and Roger show up, which they haven't), it is easy to read "our" interpretations or thought process as Clair's. Yes, Clair did go back to Jaime in the sixties, times of sexual revolution and changing ideas, but- had John not ever told her, would she think his lifestyle and prefrences were his choice? (NT) -- Oleander, 06:07:10 10/30/07 Tue
  • LOL, what a loser I am! I just misspelled Claire like ten times! I am soooo tired today! (NT) -- Oleander, 06:09:08 10/30/07 Tue
  • Oleander, what was Claire talking about here? I don't recall. (NT) -- Conmama, 08:29:52 10/30/07 Tue
    • They are talking about Jaime and why John brough Willie. John tells Claire she is the most direct woman he has ever met. In the context, however, John's statement refers to himself- his feelings for Jaime- etc. (NT) -- Oleander, 09:03:41 10/30/07 Tue
  • I love this conversation. Even though he and Claire are uncomfortable with each other and each jealous of the other how nice for John to be able to be who he is. I think Claire is wary of John's feelings for Jamie not only because of her feelings about Willie but from physical memory of the depth of her reaction to what Jamie endured at Wentworth. She is justified in feeling rather prickly. (NT) -- kgp, 09:12:48 10/30/07 Tue
    • I agree that she is justified in feeling a bit prickly- the doesn't ever want anyone to hurt Jaime, and went through a terrible ordeal with him. I, however, read John a bit differently in this scene- yes he can be who he is...but is that comfortable? Easy? Maybe easier because he doesn't need to hide his feelings or "self" but at the same time, is he still not suffering because who he is will always be unacceptable to the world at large? (NT) -- Oleander, 13:38:02 10/30/07 Tue
      • That's an interesting thought. Do you think that might be one more instance of the common ground he has with Jamie? That both are (at least sometimes) outlawed and outcast, and know what it is to live among people who would like to kill them for who they are? It's harder for Jamie to hide, so he deals with it differently, but I think they both have a solitary toughness born of the need to protect themselves. (NT) -- maddiej, 14:49:35 10/30/07 Tue
        • I'd never thought of it that way, what an interesting thought. I'll have to ponder that one for a bit ;) (NT) -- Oleander, 14:53:25 10/30/07 Tue
        • Wow - what an interesting parallel. Thank you for something new to think about. I don't think John is at all at ease here but he doesn't have to pretend to be who he is not. What else happened in the time beween meeting Jamie again as Governor of Jamaica and coming to the Ridge. Isobel has died but he seems to have been affected by something more. Has something else happened? Is he only seeking Jamie because of Isobel and that he is upset with himself for not mourning her more? (NT) -- kgp, 15:29:13 10/30/07 Tue
          • So well put, and you articulated what I was thinking but didn't know how to say. John isn't at ease with his situation, his feelings, or even himself. But he has the freedom of being without having to hide, without any masks (NT) -- Oleander, 19:04:34 10/30/07 Tue
        • Yes, that is how I see them both - "solitary toughness" is a nice way to put it. It's also another aspect of DG's neat trick with the notion of the "outlander." Who would seem more "inside" the English social order/ruling class than Lord John Grey? Yet his family name has been tarnished and he himself lives outside the law when he loves. These two have indeed a shared experience of isolation; it brings them together temporarily and superficially at Ardsmuir, and is still in the mix when they are eventually brought back together in the New World as trusting and affectionate friends. (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:53:53 10/30/07 Tue
  
  

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• QOTD for Saturday, October 27, 2007 -- Lady Jay, 05:44:30 10/27/07 Sat [6]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 34, Duchess of Pardloe. Copyright © 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  "I mean I didn't intend to kill him," she said indignantly. "What good would that do? Beyond the minor gratification of revenge, what would I want with his miserable little life?" she added bitterly.
  
  "No. I meant to make him confess the crime"--she nodded toward the table, and Grey saw that besides the leather case containing Rigby's debts, there was a portable writing desk, as well--"and then let him go. He could leave the country if he liked; he would be exposed, he would lose everything that mattered to him--and I could give Gerry back his honor."
  
  This quote brings us full circle for the week and to one more person who valued honor. The Duchess of Pardloe waited seventeen years, never letting the matter rest, never reconciling herself to Gerry's death, before finally being able to clear his name and restore his honor to him. In the meantime she did her best to keep her sons safe, even allowing his death to be believed due to suicide rather than murder. I loved her resourcefulness in gleaning information! She got the job done. Harry Quarry as the Sub-Genius--that was unexpected! *G*
  
  Thanks to all who chimed in this week. It's always great to hear what hosers have to say. :-)
  

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  • I hope we get to more of Benedicta. That she could guard her sons for 17 years and not have given it to Hal to deal with speaks to her strength. If Gerard was a match for her it's no wonder her younger sons are as they are. John's half brothers don't seem to have as much to them, maybe because we haven't actually met them but certainly John seems to think much less of their abilities than he does of Hal's - or might that be because they are so much older? (NT) -- kgp, 06:29:33 10/27/07 Sat
    • I love Benedicta, she is the reason John and Hal both have such unusually modern views of the value and intelligence of women. I can't say why, but I do believe Benedicta will be playing a part in some future book, perhaps even book 7, the timing is about right. (NT) -- Jane, 08:29:23 10/27/07 Sat
  • Thank you for a marvelous week here, Lady Jay. You picked quotes, and a theme, that proved irresistible as well as challenging! (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:04:21 10/27/07 Sat
  • Thank you for a fantastic week, Jay! (NT) -- MelvaT, 01:02:03 10/28/07 Sun
  • Thanks for a great week, Jay. :D (NT) -- Judie, 19:05:37 10/29/07 Mon
  
  

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• QOTD FOR SUNDAY OCTOBER 28TH -- Oleander, 12:20:55 10/28/07 Sun [8]
  The following quote is taken from LORD JOHN AND THE PRIVATE MATTER, Chapter 8: Enter the Chairman, copyright 2003 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  "But you did not marry. Why was that?"
  Why was that, indeed. He took a deep breath.
  "It wasn't possible," he said simply. "My lover died"
  
  I have to apologize for being so late today...my internet has been down all weekend! Thankfully, I am back up and running, and so excited about this coming week!
  

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  • Oops! I meant to add a little intro, but forgot! In this scene, Olivia has just asked John if he has ever been in love before, to which he answers yes. (NT) -- Oleander, 12:23:00 10/28/07 Sun
  • Verra intriguing, Oleander. I canna guess your theme yet, but I do love this unbearably brief exchange between John and Olivia. He could have stuck with social niceties, but instead gives her honesty -- the truth, though perhaps not the whole truth. In this case, he gives her the most honest answer it is possible for him to offer, without endangering himself and others. Do you think his use of the word "lover" had the same explicit sexual meaning that it does now? Even with Olivia assuming he's speaking of a woman, it suggests a wonderfully intimate frankness between them, for a man to speak so directly about a sexual relationship, to a female relative not his wife. (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:56:14 10/28/07 Sun
    • I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that to historically, one would refer to their other as a lover- in the same sense that historically, the phrase "to make love to" meant to woo or court. I think that the frank and/or sexual implication of the word as we use it now is a by product of the sexual revolution. (NT) -- Oleander, 15:28:20 10/28/07 Sun
      • This is what I was thinking -- it's more like saying "my loved one" or "the one I love" as opposed to "my bedmate," but then I got carried away thinking about what Olivia might assume anyway... *g* Wonderful quote! It captures such a world of pain in such a tiny number of words. (NT) -- pamelalass, 15:45:19 10/28/07 Sun
        • The gift of Diana- capturing so much with so little. I do also like to imagine what Olivia thinks of John as a result of his revelation, and what meaning she takes from the simplicity of his words. (NT) -- Oleander, 20:17:41 10/28/07 Sun
    • No, "lover" meant a person to whom one had an attraction, rather than a sexual relationship. In some parts of England, local dialect used "my lover" to address anyone in a friendly way, not only people who *were* your lover. "Where are you off to, my lover?" Sort of the same way people might say, "pal," nowadays. Very regional usage, though. (NT) -- maddiej, 14:52:52 10/29/07 Mon
  • Olivia still has such a romantic streak. I love how immersed she gets in wedding preparations, first her own, now Benedicta's. She's Hal's ward, though, interesting that she isn't with Minnie. She must have been with the family for a long time though, she treats John as a favorite brother. (NT) -- kgp, 18:10:05 10/28/07 Sun
  
  

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• QOTD for Thursday, October 25, 2007 -- Lady Jay, 21:13:58 10/24/07 Wed [27]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 31, Nota Bene. Copyright © 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  "What do you think is more important, Lord John?" he said, more clearly. "The life of a man, or the honor of his name when he is dead?"
  
  Grey considered that. The question took him by surprise, but it had been meant seriously.
  
  "For myself," he said at last, "I should say firstly, that it depends upon the man. And secondly, that a man whose life lacks honor surely has no claim upon it after death."
  
  "Ah. But I did not say the man's honor, necessarily. I said, 'the honor of his name.' That, I expect, strikes you more cogently?"
  
  I enjoyed this conversation with Longstreet and the jump start it gave LJG. His frame of mind since being wounded reminded me of Claire's after she lost Faith--both were recovering physically and were going through the motions of living, but needed more to bring them back to life, needed something to live for. Claire found her purpose in Jamie. LJG found it in his renewed investigation into his father's murder and his efforts to restore the family's honor. Thoughts on this chapter's title and what should be noted well?
  

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  • I had to look that up. Inside for anyone else who might need it too.... Nota Bene >>>> -- MelvaT, 22:57:41 10/24/07 Wed
    • I went to Catholic school and the way the nuns used it I just figured it meant "PAY ATTENTION YOU IDIOTS!" Thanks for posting the definition. I would have never bothered looking it up thinking I already knew what it meant. (NT) -- Jane, 06:05:52 10/25/07 Thu
  • But in the end, isn't the honor of your name all that's left? Your reputation? Unless Longstreet is talking of men whose public persona hides back stage double dealings or personal failings. This is a toughy and I hope someone can clear this one up for me. (NT) -- kgp, 05:32:52 10/25/07 Thu
    • I think that what Longstreet is saying is that honor can be viewed two ways. A man's name can be remembered with honour, but that doesn't mean he really lived honourably. A man can live honourably and die without honour to his name. Longstreets is saying that they aren't mutually exclusive. How important was the honour of his father's name when John already knew in his heart that his father had been an honourable man? (NT) -- Oleander, 07:11:01 10/25/07 Thu
      • Certainly Gerald was an honorable man. Is Longstreet asking how much does it mean to John to clear any aspersions cast upon him after his death? Nothing was ever proven but his supposed suicide was taken as admission of guilt along with some spiteful fingerpointing by Longstreet's brother and Adams. I haven't had the time to go back and truly figure out that whole business. But it's not only his father's honor for John, it's also Hal's right to proudly bear his father's title. Hal's honor is weighing on John as well. (NT) -- kgp, 07:47:58 10/25/07 Thu
        • I don't think Longstreet is talking about Gerard Grey. He's preparing to explain his own actions, by stating the premise of his dilemma. He had the choice of exposing his cousin as a Jacobite, which would have meant his cousin's death or imprisonment, but which would also have exonerated the Duke. Figuring that after all, Grey was dead, he ultimately chose his cousin's life over the Greys' family honor, but now that the cousin has also died, he feels a need to tell the truth. (NT) -- maddiej, 08:14:44 10/25/07 Thu
          • I guess this is how I saw it as well. Certainly protecting the honour of your family name is important. Is it more important than your actual honour? Your knowledge of yourself as an honourable man? I think that John does know his father was honourable (hence he chose to keep his title as a dukes son), but feels the weight, as pam said, of Hal's descision not to carry the title. Remember that personal honour is something John struggles with this whole book. Is it more important to protect his family name, or to do what his conscience tells him an honourable man would do, and save Percy? (NT) -- Oleander, 08:38:03 10/25/07 Thu
          • Thank you, it makes much more sense in that context. But why did he wait so long? Because being so near death any repercussions from fianlly telling the truth wouldn't matter any more? I'm going to have to go back for a third read I think. (NT) -- kgp, 09:05:43 10/25/07 Thu
            • Yes, Longstreet said that his cousin was near death and "almost beyond the reach...of law or man." (NT) -- Lady Jay, 09:15:46 10/25/07 Thu
          • This is how I'd interpreted it as well. Longstreet originally chose his cousin's life over the Grey family honor. Now with his cousin dead and with him being near to death himself, he was prepared to tell the truth and restore the Greys' honor as well as his personal sense of honor at the price of the Creemore name. (NT) -- Lady Jay, 09:37:35 10/25/07 Thu
            • Yes, I think that's right. Have any of you heard the podcast where DG boils down each of her books to one word? I don't remember whether it was another podcast or an interview, but I did hear her say somewhere that the one word this book comes down to is "honor." I think this passage and the conversation with Jamie in the stable are where she lays out all the different strands of honor that Lord John is dealing with. (NT) -- maddiej, 09:45:17 10/25/07 Thu
              • It was in a podcast of two or three weeks ago now, I think, and yes, Herself said that honor is at the center of the story and of the conflict. I agree that this scene with Longstreet and the one with Jamie later really get to the heart of LJG's dilemma regarding honor and personal integrity. You've given me a nice segue into tomorrow's quote, btw, maddiej. *G* (NT) -- Lady Jay, 10:35:51 10/25/07 Thu
  • Hmm, your week just keeps getting more intriguing and challenging! This one's gonna take me more time to ponder... Grey's honor has multiple dimensions, existing in both public and private arenas, and in his own heart. It also cuts (the blade again!) across multiple identities that are both individual to the man and shared with the men of his family and regiment: son, brother, officer, and, eventually, husband and father. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:02:51 10/25/07 Thu
    • While the story that got us there was complicated, I really appreciate Johns growth and development in this story. He knows himself as an honourable man throughout, but has to come to terms with that that means for him, as you said, in the public and private arenas of his life. I think that this personal growth and journey are a step in the direction of friendship with Jaime. As was said before, their "friendship" before was tinged by the fact that John, ostensibly, held a position of power over Jaime. Not because Jaime would succumb to threats on his own, but because he would do anything to protect his family. Freed from these constraints, I still think it important that John has to come to terms with himself and grow as a person, in order to be a real friend to Jaime. (NT) -- Oleander, 08:42:24 10/25/07 Thu
      • John does grow quite a bit compared to when he began at Ardsmuir and was looking for the gold as a way to redeem himself and get back to London. Jamie in V in the same scene we were talking about earlier wonders about men who were not born to the role they were required to fill and thinks of John and Charles Stuart in that context. John considers himself born to be a soldier like his father. I guess that's significantly different than administering a prison. Do you think John is a "natural"? or has he grown into his duties as Major Grey? (NT) -- kgp, 11:48:31 10/25/07 Thu
        • Good question. Jamie seems to be a natural, though he wasn't born to the actual lairdship, being the second son. John is naive when we first meet him, at 16, but certainly has innate courage and dignity. His "rescue the maiden" fiasco does seem like something a very young Jamie might have done, as someone (was it you??) pointed out earlier this week. Was military service a common thing for second sons ? It's certainly another formative experience these two share. But the kind of leadership John ends up taking on is much more formalized than Jamie's (prison governor, colonial governor, etc.). Leadership would be a great theme, related to the theme we're discussing (honor), yet touching on other strengths and challenges for these men. (NT) -- pamelalass, 13:27:51 10/25/07 Thu
          • Yes, in families with titles and/or property, the oldest son took both. The idea being that to split the estate among several children would dilute it, and thus deprive the family as a whole of influence. So a second son usually did buy a commission and enter the army (the navy, sometimes, but this was considered much lower class), and the third son--if there was one--often joined the church. If you look at the way English society operated during the 14th-late 19th centuries, you can see why this made sense. A family (and family name) would have influence in all three important spheres, and thus be in a better position to gain and exert political power. (NT) -- maddiej, 15:21:22 10/25/07 Thu
            • Right. Thanks maddie. I couldn't remember which order they went in for the "assignments" handed out to the second vs. the third son. Does this mean that the Greys are an unusually military family, since it's not just John with the regiment? I'm not familiar enough with the intersection of military leadership and the landed aristocracy -- presumably as either Pardloe or Melton, Hal (or their father) wouldn't have needed to serve in the military to gain status, recognition, or wealth? Perhaps this was his chosen sphere of influence, akin to the way titled men could take up politics by actively engaging in the Lords, etc. And Maj. John Grey's career does demonstrate that military service could lead to privileged political appointments (not Ardsmuir, perhaps, but his other governorship!). (NT) -- pamelalass, 15:34:49 10/25/07 Thu
              • I think John explains this to Percy while telling him about the family scandal. He says that his father raised a regiment and fought for George I, in 1715 or 1719, don't remember which. But that's why the king made him a Duke. And then Hal raises the regiment again, and goes to fight against the second round of Jacobites, in order to restore the family honor. (NT) -- maddiej, 17:02:23 10/25/07 Thu
  • Rereading Lady Jay's comments above, I do think John is suffering depression during his recovery. His indifference to his surroundings, the shrugging off of social interaction, loss of appetite and basically walking in a constant fog are common symptoms of depression and deep grief. I think John has PTS compounded by the disallusionment of his discovery of Percy and Weber and Stephan's mercy killing of Weber. (NT) -- kgp, 18:03:37 10/25/07 Thu
  • Oh wow! Y'all are amazing. Can I add another thank you to maddiej? (NT) -- MelvaT, 19:50:09 10/25/07 Thu
    • My only thought to add is I wonder, if as women, who give up our last names in marriage; can we grasp/understand the importance to a man of a good name? I spent all day (at the VA with Bob) thinking and remembering the privileges that came with my maiden name. A name that my father had spent years building into astounding recognition in the community I grew up in. >>>> -- MelvaT, 20:45:24 10/25/07 Thu
      • It took me a long time (17 years) to change my name after marriage. It was a part of me I didn't want to let go of. My mother was, of course, horrified that I wasn't taking my husband's name. I didn't see why it should matter. (NT) -- kgp, 05:12:53 10/26/07 Fri
      • Melva—I’m not sure I’m posting this correctly because I can’t figure out how to reply to your comment specifically, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed reading your poignant (and eloquently expressed) evocation of the importance men attach to their name. Your comments also made me think about how women today view their own relationship with their family name now that it’s possible, as kgp notes, to continue using it after marrying. There doesn’t seem to be as much controversy over this practice as there once was, but it wasn’t that long ago that many people felt Hillary Clinton’s initial preference to keep her maiden name hurt her husband’s political career. “What’s in a name?” Juliet famously asked. A great deal, apparently, as that play and history itself have clearly demonstrated. (NT) -- JessieR, 06:37:47 10/26/07 Fri
        • Much to the chagrin of my family and friends, I chose to hyphenate my name. I am so proud of my family history and my ancestry. I couldn't give it up, and I wante to pass taht on to my children as well. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:28:49 10/26/07 Fri
      • What's amazing to me is that we weren't rich by any means. My father managed a small town hardware store in the panhandle of Idaho, but his reputation for honesty and square dealing extended into the neighboring states as well. He would only stock the top of the line materials and products, and he stood behind everything he sold. He'd do business with anyone who paid their bill on time, but 'woe' to anyone who didn't. >>>> -- MelvaT, 10:54:10 10/26/07 Fri
  
  

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• Just a reminder -- Judie, 07:41:42 10/26/07 Fri [1]
  .
  .
  There are still six weeks available for people to do Quote of the Day for Brotherhood of the Blade. Click "contact forum admin" above to send me an e-mail if you would like a week of quotes. Thanks.
  
  Once we reach year's end Brotherhood of the Blade will be added to the list of books that will be freely discussed on the Books Board and this board will be closed to further posts. The discussions will be kept available, though.
  
  Judie
  

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• QOTD for Monday, October 22, 2007 -- Lady Jay, 21:09:19 10/21/07 Sun [43]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 8, Violent Hands. Copyright © 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  The fact that Fraser had answered him reinforced Grey's suspicions regarding Geneva. The encounter in the chapel was not mentioned, but the memory of it was clear between them. His honor would not permit him to mention it, lest it be taken as a threat--but the threat was implied. Had he made it explicit, Fraser's honor--and his temper--would likely have caused him to throw it back in Grey's face, stubbornly refusing to say a word and daring him to take action.
  
  It's fascinating to do some time traveling ourselves and see Jamie and LJG during the Helwater years. The men are clearly not friends at this point, but they treat each other with honesty, each according to his code. How things evolve from this point to their friendship in DOA is something I'm looking forward to seeing DG reveal 'in the fullness of time'. *G*
  

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  • That's another thing I['m looking forwar to through the LJG books - the thought processes and life shaping events for Jamie durig this time. We caught glimpses of it in V, we had known he had a candle lit for Geneva bit never got to see the guilt or penance he exacted from himself. I also like that because of the code of honor and their common experiences as educated fighting men that they can 'read' each other. (NT) -- kgp, 05:46:54 10/22/07 Mon
  • It is so fascinating to get to see John's mind at work. His depth and perception are truley remarkable! (NT) -- Oleander, 06:18:49 10/22/07 Mon
  • Me too, Jay! So how did these 2 men become friends? By fractions of courtesy it seems. With Jamie's past experiences, LJG can't possibly be listed anywhere on his top-ten future buddy-list. But this wee quote shows the respect LJG has for Jamie, and his own intelligence in not pushing the matter by crouding Jamie's dignity. There's not many people, male or female, who have the caution to know when to leave well enough alone. (NT) -- MelvaT, 11:57:08 10/22/07 Mon
    • so well put! You are right, too often people don't have the delicacy or subtlety for many awkward situations. BTW you cracked me up with the top-ten comment! (NT) -- Oleander, 12:42:32 10/22/07 Mon
    • I do believe that John and Jamie were honestly friends at Ardsmuir right up until "the pass". I think Jamie felt a serious lack after all those years in a cave and then stuck in prison with men who, while he loved them and cared for them, were not his equals. Jamie was hungry for someone he could talk to as an equal. Remember the time he was walking with Major Macdonald and ran into Brown and a bunch of rebels and he cursed himself for his "love of conversation" that had brought about this meeting kicking himself because they were "discussing poetry!"? I think the meetings with John filled a huge need in Jamie and their friendship was genuine. Some part of Jamie must have wanted that back enough for him to overlook what he saw as a flaw in John's personality later at Helwater. Jamie really had nobody there that could fill that need either, he must have been heartbreakingly lonely. (NT) -- Jane, 06:20:56 10/23/07 Tue
      • I agree completely Jane. In spite of the barriers between prisoner and jailer, before "the pass", there was genuine mutual admiration and friendship. And Jamie recognized his own need for intellectual stimulation and camaraderie. Didn't Jamie also remember everything about meeting John at age 16, and that he'd thought him quite a brave, if naive enough to be fooled, lad even then? (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:02:14 10/23/07 Tue
        • Yes - and thanked him for what he tried to do to save Claire's honor. He was a brave lad who deserved to think he was good enough to kill. (NT) -- kgp, 07:42:45 10/23/07 Tue
        • I have a question about hte pass...--> -- Oleander, 09:10:50 10/23/07 Tue
          • I don't think Jamie was tempted so much as revulsed. It is my impression he claimed the Tartan as a way to completely sever the relationship with John, to be sure John understood the gulf between them. By reminding John of his prisoner status it is then John's duty to care for him honorably. Pressuring a sexual relationship would be bad form. As to Jamie being tempted, he assures Claire during a discussion of men in prison using each other or going mad he asserts quite vehemently that he was never tempted to turn to another man no matter how he yearned for physical contact. Jamie's reaction to John's hand on his was so immediate and violent I don't think there was ever even a moment of temptation even for relief from the company of the other Scots. He'd rather be an honorable prisoner than gain priviledges through any means. His dinners with Harry and John were seen by the others as his due because he was their chief and it was then that he spoke for them.. (NT) -- kgp, 09:34:14 10/23/07 Tue
            • See, I totally agree with that. But on my last re read of Voyager, one sentence stood out to me, and took me by surprise. Shoot I wish I had my book with me, i'd go find it ;) oh well, ill post it later! (NT) -- Oleander, 11:14:45 10/23/07 Tue
              • Karen or anyone else - do you remember when this came up a while back, and there was discussion of this same question? It centered on the same word - - "temptation" - - which makes me think there must indeed be something in the text to suggest it. I don't have it to hand, but I vaguely remember reading something where Jamie confesses that he was tempted at Ardsmuir not by John specifically, and not truly sexually, but by the thought that others around him had given in to sexual frustration and temptation, and he was suffering a vast craving for the touch of a human hand. I also think he was harsh on himself for having ever given in to the temptation to enjoy the evenings he did spend with John, while his men were caged in the cell. He must have wished he had held himself completely aloof. Although he was living in a cell with them, he was isolated from the men because of his leadership and care for the group as a whole. >>>> -- pamelalass, 14:42:48 10/23/07 Tue
                • Oh, glory, I can't remember exactly where but he is explaining it to Claire and talking about how he imagines Christ must have felt, apart from the others, longing to be touched. All those years and no one would even consider a casual touch, a pat on the shoulder or nudge going out to the peat bogs. He didn't wish for sexual contact but only for human contact. (NT) -- kgp, 15:35:32 10/23/07 Tue
                  • It's the passage in which he thinks of the painting of Christ, the Sacred Heart, and says that the painter must have understood Christ's loneliness. I think it's in ABoSaA but wouldn't swear to it. Anybody? (NT) -- CatherineM., 17:42:11 10/23/07 Tue
                    • It is, I think also in context of explaining Tom Christie to Claire. (NT) -- kgp, 19:13:35 10/23/07 Tue
                • I think what John said about the flogging in DOA was really telling.... "but that was not enough for him; he wished a final severance. And so he deliberately brought about an occasion so drastic that it must alter our relation irrevocably and prevent any chace of a friendship between us." (NT) -- Jane, 15:36:54 10/23/07 Tue
              • Oleander - I think I found your reference . It is just after the flogging. I read it as the temptation not of flesh but to rise above prisoner status and accept what little luxuries there were in Ardsmuir, the temptation of priviledge rather than flesh. Prior to this he had been struggling withthe transition from the Governor's quarters back to the cell and the other Scots. John relieved him of the dichotomy of his existence.>>> -- kgp, 05:43:09 10/24/07 Wed
                • THank you! Yes this is the passage that I was thinking of. And I think you are right, about the temptation to rise above his prisoner status, to have wanted to be friends with John and speak to him as an equal. (NT) -- Oleander, 06:17:09 10/24/07 Wed
                • Yes! That's it -- he was tempted just to get some measure of relief from the burden of care for all those men in the cell, and the weary, cold, aching discomfort of it. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:19:48 10/24/07 Wed
      • Sorry Jane, I have to disagree with you here. Not that you're wrong, *G* it's just that my definition of friendship includes so much more than good conversation with an equally intelligent person. Jamie and LJG may have found hundreds of interesting topics to discuss, but I believe it simply gave them both a small way to "escape" prison-life and to forget they were both being punished. They weren't friends at this point. You have to be able to trust a friend, and there's no way Jamie could trust LJG with anything that might endanger his family. And how could you possibly be friends with someone who holds the power and control of your life and freedom? (NT) -- MelvaT, 13:27:03 10/23/07 Tue
        • Interesting! It does depend on the definition of friendship, and you are right about the issue of trust and the completely unbalanced power dynamic. I sometimes think that they both recognized that John's "control" over Jamie was nominal since they acknowledged each other as men of honor, and that the whole tartan/beating episode was one way for Jamie to demonstrate that he is master of his own fate. In any case, I think although they were constrained from being actual friends, there was something more than just passing the time. I guess I felt that there was an unpsoken acknowledgment that they might actually have been friends had the circumstances been otherwise. But perhaps I used the word "friendship" too casually above -- there was some kind of mutual recognition and connection, but it was completely limited, first by their relative stations, and then by John's ill-advised overture. (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:27:25 10/23/07 Tue
          • I think there was respect, liking and a mutual sense of what could be under other circumstances. Under the circumstance, they were as companionable as they were going to be. (NT) -- kgp, 15:38:07 10/23/07 Tue
          • Yes, there is more! Layers of more. These 2 men have gone through this balancing act of power before. In the woods, when LJG was just a teenager; Jamie treated John as an equal, a grown man. And each interaction since then has been adding to a very strong foundation for their future friendship. It's fascinating, for me, to picture this delicate dance of male-bonding. DG's grasp of human nature and behavior hits neon lights with these 2 characters. (NT) -- MelvaT, 15:51:33 10/23/07 Tue
        • Well, John obviously thought they were friends, just before the quote from DOA I posted above John said "We were friends. Then...he discovered my feelings for him. We were no longer friends." Jamie's thinking that his visits with John in prison was like life in the cave in reverse going from the "crowded, cold, squualor of the cells going to the Major's glowing suite, able for a few hours to stretch both body and mind, to relax in warmth and conversation" perhaps not a declaration of friendship but there was something about the relationship that he valued and hated to lose. (NT) -- Jane, 15:51:36 10/23/07 Tue
          • I can't resist..I posted this below inside my post about the paper written about that Jacobite Trilogy I recommended it is perfect for this friendship conversation "Gabaldon's highly entertaining historical adventures are particularly memorable for the fresh twist she gives to friendships between men, especially the convoluted friendship between the young Highland chieftain Jamie Fraser and the English soldier Lord John Grey."... "It is clear that Gabaldon has read the Trilogy; and the Fraser/Grey relationship surely owes something to Ewen Cameron and Keith Windham. Like Cameron, Gabaldon's tall redheaded hero is saved from a firing squad after Culloden by an English soldier who owes him a debt of honour; and Gabaldon looks at similar themes of friendship and allegiance." So, weird as their friendship might seem to us..we can't say it isn't a true friendship. As Jamie told Claire, "friends are where you find them." (NT) -- Jane, 16:04:50 10/23/07 Tue
          • Aye! John did think they were friends; he'd have never fooled himself into making a pass at Jamie if he didn't. All I'm trying to say is that their relationship takes a serious roller coaster ride before they both, at the same time, can say they are friends. (NT) -- MelvaT, 16:34:07 10/23/07 Tue
            • Melva, Jane, Karen, I love this discussion! I find this "convoluted" friendship immensely compelling and addictive to ponder. Jane, I just found your excerpt from the Broster thesis on the other board, and it was a great Aha! moment , re-contextualizing these two. There's this "classic" formula, with it's powerful themes of conflicted loyalties, duty, love, honor, etc., and then there's DG's rather subversive re-shaping, which does indeed infuse it with neon intensity. I just re-read their fateful meeting, when John is 16 and Jamie humiliates him, but with honor. (Thanks to WendyMF for triggering this delightful mini-reread for me!) Much will pass between them to cause anger and mistrust, yet Jamie's treatment of John with dignity created a foundation that they will eventually find their way back to, even if John first thinks he is a craven outlaw and "Scottish poltroon" and then here in BOTB we see Jamie reviling John's love for men as cowardly and base. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:09:19 10/23/07 Tue
              • Oh, and let's not forget "unprincipled voluptuary"!! It made Jamie laugh at the time, but it's oddly ironic, since that's basically what he later thinks, and articulates, about John's involvement with Percy, and his interest in men rather than women. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:14:44 10/23/07 Tue
                • Oh, this is much more fun than the homework I am supposed to be doing! I am wondering how much of the animosity that erupts and the trust that develops is because of the reflection each sees of himself in the other. Jamie might well have tried the same romantic heroics as John at that age. He recognizes the foolish brand of adolescent bravery. I now will go obediently back to my discussion of performance evaluations and merit increases. (shoot me, please!) (NT) -- kgp, 18:16:53 10/23/07 Tue
                  • Nope, can't shoot ya. You're too much fun. :-) (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:21:29 10/23/07 Tue
        • Concerning the "definition of friendship" everybody's is different and we as individuals have different levels of friendships going on all the time. My daughter keeps telling me I need to stop ignoring my "flesh and blood friends or pretty soon you won't have any" and spending much of what little free time I have on the boards here. I tell her I need to discuss things that matter to me with intelligent like minded people, like Jamie I like to "stretch my mind". I DON'T get that from her father or my "real" friends and coworkers. I have little patience for the mundane talk about (their) kids (I could talk about mine all day but then I'd be as boring as they are LOL) and the price of gas and groceries. So, we don't really know each other, we doubtless will never meet, but I consider you my friends, and you fill a need for me that nobody else does. Friends are indeed where you find them. (NT) -- Jane, 06:08:26 10/24/07 Wed
          • Jane, you are a verra lovely friend to have, indeed, and we are all the better for it! Thanks for seeing this connection between what we're so busy talking about here, and how we find companionship, intellectual stimulation, solace, etc., here on the boards. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:27:29 10/24/07 Wed
            • Amen to that. The Hosen Few are quite special and the discussions are far deeper and more candid than the usual co-worker lunch chats. I avoid those by coming here. (NT) -- kgp, 10:16:18 10/24/07 Wed
              • I figure if I drivel on here, people can just skip over my posts ("oh, it's her again!") and I will never be the wiser. I can pretty much say whatever is on my mind without guilt. I am always amazed (and occasionally intimidated) by how intelligent and articulate you all are, I don't believe I have ever even been tempted to skip anyone's posts myself. (NT) -- Jane, 15:08:47 10/24/07 Wed
                • Jane you never drivel on! I love reading your posts and ken exactly what you mean by intimidated. *G* I'll let y'all in on a secret. Most of the time it takes me hours to sort out a reply. I even hit the preview button several times before the send and then I'll stress over accidently offending someone. But I enjoy these discussions so much there's no way I could just lurk and keep my mouth shut for very long. Oh, I've also been told, many times, that I needed to get a 'real' life. *VBG* I just tell them I want to dip into a world of intelligent like-minded folks not a stagnate old gene pool. (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:18:23 10/24/07 Wed
                  • What is this "real life" you speak of? {G} (NT) -- kgp, 18:25:26 10/24/07 Wed
                    • Real life? I'm not sure. *G* I think it's that mundane stuff Jane mentions above. If your elderly mother is living with you like mine is, it equals bragging about your ailments.... hemorrhoids, arthritis, water retention, blood pressure, etc, etc. Gets a wee bit taxing to listen to after awhile. (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:52:39 10/24/07 Wed
                  • Oh Melva, I can't tell you how many times I have wished that I had previewed and to my horror didn't remember to. It's not just because of the typos and awful grammar that make me look like an idiot either. Sometimes I've just plain said the wrong thing and once it's out there you can't take it back. I hurt someone's feelings on the book board once. Trust me you never get over feeling bad about it once you've done it, even if they say they forgive you, it never quite feels the same. So, thank you to the people who take the time to preview, blessed are the peace keepers, for they shall have a positive influence the hot heads like me. (NT) -- Jane, 20:14:02 10/24/07 Wed
                    • I've accidently done that too. :-( (NT) -- MelvaT, 22:45:22 10/24/07 Wed
                      • I wish it had been an accident, it would have been less embarrassing if it had been. Mine was an inexcusable knee jerk reaction to an anti John/Willie comment when I was in a foul enough temper to blow up over it. (NT) -- Jane, 06:22:50 10/25/07 Thu
                        • LOL! Come to think of it, I have bitten off a few heads in defense of "my" favorite characters too. BJR, Jamie and the word love in the same sentence will still jerk both my knees over my head. :-) (NT) -- MelvaT, 09:24:33 10/25/07 Thu
  • I don't understand about the "threat". What threat and how was it implied?? Can someone help me? (NT) -- GwenM, 03:10:49 10/23/07 Tue
    • The threat was revealing Jamie's presence in the chapel to the rest of the family and making a case out of what everyone is trying very hard to not "know". A groom (especially in Jamie's delicate position) laying hands on an employer's daughter would be in for some serious reprisals. It would also put William at risk. Jamie at this point knows John is honorable but is still too mad and suspisious of John's motives in having him at Helwater to trust. That John 'knows' is another shackle on Jamie. (NT) -- kgp, 05:47:05 10/23/07 Tue
  
  

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• QOTD for Wednesday, October 24, 2007 -- Lady Jay, 21:39:47 10/23/07 Tue [23]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 28, Hückelsmay. Copyright © 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  To live a pointless existence of idleness with a man whom he could not trust. No, it would not serve.
  
  "Damn you, Perseverance," he said softly. "I wish I had never set eyes upon you." He sighed, rubbing the palms of his hands over his closed eyelids.
  
  And yet, he did not mean that, he realized. He did feel that way about Jamie Fraser--but not Percy. And became aware, very much too late, that he did love Percy Wainwright. But...enough to try to save him, at the cost of his own honor, his own life, even though there could be nothing left between them?
  
  At this point there is only one eyewitness left to testify against Percy. LJG is in a no-win situation here--Percy's life and his own love for him in the balance against his honor--yet he wouldn't wish away knowing Percy, despite his faults, because he does love him. When it comes to Jamie Fraser, however....
  

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  • To never have set eyes upon Jamie??? Perish the thought! But to only be allowed brief moments of charged interaction 4 times a year must be a bittersweet torment for John and he's all too aware of it. I'm glad he realizes he does love Percy but also recognizes the limits of his affection. He's not going to throw away everything for less than what he deserves. (NT) -- kgp, 05:50:58 10/24/07 Wed
    • I know he says (or reflects to himself) right here that he loves Percy, but it just feels so tepid. I never felt that he was so connected to Percy that he would have been utterly bereft without him, even when their physical passion was quite fresh and strong. There was never that phenomenon of owning, and being owned. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:30:36 10/24/07 Wed
      • It was certainly not the level of connection we hope John to find. I think the level of affection John has for Percy is like you or I would feel for that really nice guy we used to date but it just didn't work out. Good luck to him, wish him well but no heartbreak. It's worth a pint of B&Js and a bit of wistfulness but it's okay that it's over. (NT) -- kgp, 07:48:43 10/24/07 Wed
        • And remember, the two sides of a coin. With Jaime, John has the kind of love which is unrequited and unreturned. With Percy, he has a physical and emotional relationship in which John is known and understood for who he is. Burning passion, no. But affection and caring- this is a sort of love too. (NT) -- Oleander, 10:40:15 10/24/07 Wed
          • Weel, he's known and understood for who he is in some ways, but Percy does really miss the point on some of the essential John - - the honor, duty, sacrifice pieces of his character. I guess I am willing to accept the love they share as such - - a sort of love - - and in real life we have to accept these kinds of omissions from our lovers/mates all the time, but in the context of these books and their magnificent exploration of soul-possessing love, it is certainly second-rate! (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:28:27 10/24/07 Wed
  • For John, having someone with whom to share physical intimacy and friendship is not a small consideration, love or no. When reading this moment in the book, though, I felt a sad relief that John recognizes that he cannot trust Percy nor share a less than acceptable life with him. I was surprised to read that John wishes that he never set eyes on James...but that probably best describes just how painful it is for John to exist with unrequited love. After Willie, though, would John still feel this way? I think no. (NT) -- teddie (), 14:50:48 10/24/07 Wed
    • Hi teddie, so good to 'see' you! I think you are right about the pain of wanting something you know you can never have perhaps feeling worse than never knowing you wanted it in the first place (if that makes any sense at all...?). About Willie, are you thinking that John loves being a father, and the fact that Willie is a part of Jamie gives him some measure of happiness? That's tricky, isn't it, because the constant reminder of Jamie could be painful, too? I would love to read more about John and Willie together, to better understand their relationship. I suppose there's space for that in a future book that would also tell more about how Jamie and John get to be friends (again). (NT) -- pamelalass, 15:03:37 10/24/07 Wed
      • Hey, Pamelalass....yes, I think that John's life might be forever changed once Willie enters it, for both reasons that you mention. I also like that DG illustrates that being both homosexual and a good parent are not mutually exclusive traits. (Don't know whether this was intentional or not on her part.) The fact that Willie grows to be such a wonderful young man (as so far as we've been able to know) is further testament to John's committment to raising Willie. I feel that accepting the care of Willie, knowing that he will be forever reminded of James through his child is a supremely unselfish act on John's part. I look forward to more, more, more. If I have been this excited about a new Lord John book, I will doubtless lose my mind when Book Seven comes out! (NT) -- teddie (), 15:35:31 10/24/07 Wed
        • Willie is someone John never imagined he would have, a child of the heart by someone he loves. (NT) -- kgp, 18:23:12 10/24/07 Wed
          • Oh, kgp, that is a beautiful thought! (NT) -- teddie, 18:40:11 10/24/07 Wed
          • Oh yes, beautiful! I've often thought that one of the reasons Claire has cause to be jealous of John is that he in effect has a son "with" Jamie. She and Jamie have Bree, but she was not given the gift of having a son with him (not that I'm sure she would have wanted another child, and I know she doesn't want a son instead of Bree! I'm just saying.... John does have a son "by" Jamie, and Claire does not, and a man's son is, well, a man's son.). What's really painful is that Jamie has had to be the absent parent in both cases. (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:25:00 10/24/07 Wed
            • I found that to be a compelling subtext in John and Claire's conversation in DOA, that each has recently found out the other has had the keeping and cherishing of a child of Jamie's, something here to fore thought to be an exclusive priviledge. (NT) -- kgp, 05:18:38 10/25/07 Thu
  • This quote was twisting my mind so much I had to talk to someone in the 'know' before I could play today. Here's how the differences were explained to me. >>>> -- MelvaT, 16:43:26 10/24/07 Wed
    • Melva, your excellent analysis makes good sense to me. I mentioned way down the board that Percy was too weak and too accustomed to giving himself away--which he does all too easily in his betrayal of John, without even considering the alternate solution of trusting John enough to ask for his help. I've always found John to seem incredibly well-adjusted for his social position and sexual orientation. John recalls his own previous close call with being discovered, providing a grim awareness of his own precarious well-being vs Percy's disgrace. (NT) -- teddie, 17:57:12 10/24/07 Wed
    • I think Percy exhibits traits we might associate with anyone who has used sex as a tool to get along. Remember that girl in high school who gave it away as a way to gain a semblance of love even though she ended up disdained by just about everyone? That's not quite what I see in Percy but close enough for what little brain I have left tonight. MelvaT, you have a good point. Percy doesn't see the level of giving that John sees in physical intimacy although he does love John. (NT) -- kgp, 18:20:54 10/24/07 Wed
      • kgp , Percy does sorta remind me of her, actually my HS had several *LOL* >>>> -- MelvaT, 19:24:50 10/24/07 Wed
    • WOW. Melva, thank you so much for taking the time to share these thoughtful comments. I hope you will also thank whoever your friend 'in the know' is. I think you are right that there are nuances to the physical intimacy depicted in the book, as varying expressions of desire/passion/love, that may not be as clear or obvious to most of us in the conversation here. >>>> -- pamelalass, 19:14:45 10/24/07 Wed
      • Pamelalass, I been trying for ages to get my brat to read the Private Matter. He told me to call when the movie comes out. >>>> -- MelvaT, 21:58:58 10/24/07 Wed
        • I felt John's physical reaction to the argument to be an act of punishment to himself, in reaction to the energy released but to his own remarks. Fighting gives ye a terrible cockstand, after all. I think it was tension more than arousal that compelled it. (NT) -- kgp, 05:29:27 10/25/07 Thu
        • "someone who absorbs life's waves and rides 'em." Beautiful Melva! (NT) -- Jane, 06:12:39 10/25/07 Thu
        • Does that make sense?! Please! I am in awe of your eloquence and passion here -- and your posts are always as clever and witty as the man we're all gathering here to converse about. And as usual, you've zeroed in on the things I've been trying to figure out too. >>>> -- pamelalass, 06:50:58 10/25/07 Thu
    • Very nice, Mel! You make very good points and really delved into this one! I'd also felt a bit dissatisfied with my take on this quote. That's part of why I chose it. Hoser insights can be so helpful and enlightening. I think I've got a better handle on this now. I also agree with the observations that there are different types of love. I don't doubt that what LJG feels for Percy is love. It's just not that enduring love shared by soulmates of which blockbuster movies and best-selling novels are made. I'm still chuckling over your harmony.com comment, too. *G* (NT) -- Lady Jay, 19:17:37 10/24/07 Wed
  
  

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• I just want to congratulate and thank all of you for your insights and thought-provoking discussions of BOTB through this wonderful QOTD activity. I am amazed that there is such depth in conversations of such a recent book. I've just finished my first re-read and am finding the conversations here verra helpful. -- CatherineM., 19:04:36 10/24/07 Wed [2]
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  • Thanks for joining us on the board here Catherine! I always love your insightful posts. (NT) -- Jane, 06:07:25 10/25/07 Thu
  
  

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• Phew! I finally finished the book and here I am! I liked it so much more than I had expected. I even lost sleep over it - just like the Outlander books! I am going through withdrawal - glad I can come here. Thanks for the great quotes! -- Lady JenF, 18:30:48 10/24/07 Wed [1]
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• QOTD for Tuesday, October 23, 2007 -- Lady Jay, 21:20:09 10/22/07 Mon [18]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 27, The Honorable Thing. Copyright © 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  ".... Are you seriously suggesting that I call upon Percy Wainwright and murder him in the gaol?"
  
  "No. I'm suggesting that you call upon him, give him this, and...urge him to--to do the honorable thing. It would be best for everyone," Hal added softly, looking down at the tabletop. "Including him."
  
  Up to this point I'd been enjoying this book for the historical mystery that it is, and it was great to see LJG find someone in whom he could confide his secrets and speak intimately, at least early on. But this is where DG took things to another level as events forced LJG to confront and evaluate his feelings on the meaning of honor--his personal sense of honor, his family honor, his honor as a soldier--all were put to the test because of his involvement with Percy. Oh, and pamelalass, this is where I'd been planning to use the quote that you used last Thursday. *G*
  

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  • I can't remember it exactly, but one of the "sodomite conspirators" had offed himself to avoid the spectacle of a trial. It was more honorable than putting the family through it all and his involvement could still be in doubt. Hal was acting upon precedent. Diana rarely takes the easy way out. (NT) -- kgp, 05:50:49 10/23/07 Tue
  • Great work with your theme! The struggle over what to do about Percy causes so much anguish for Grey. I find myself wishing he hadn't had to learn this lesson in such a hard and bitter way - - I think he was infatuated with Percy, and relished the chance to let down his guard, but deep down he knew early on that Percy did not share his sense of duty, and in the end, he was hurt more because he had shared so much of himself. It's the "blade" of intimacy that cuts both ways, again. And apologies for "cutting in" and using the "you dare to speak of honor" quote last week; I can see that it would have worked well here, but I think the one you have given us is perfect too! In this book I felt that Grey became a fully-fleshed romantic hero, honorable of character, strong of body, steely of will - - but not perfect. I am still hung up on why he has to suffer so many lost relationships with people who either die or betray him, and is stuck pining for something that makes no sense. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:52:50 10/23/07 Tue
    • Oh, Pamela, "the blade of intimacy", so well put. I am thinking ahead, when reading this, to DOA, when John tells Claire he visisted Jaime to see if he could still feel. Episodes such as this really make me wonder if John will ever find his happiness. His understanding of his duty, to his family and his men- will it always have to supercede his happiness? He will never be able to claim a lover freely, and for the sake of honour, he could not forsake his duty or family for himself alone. Does that make any sense? (NT) -- Oleander, 08:18:58 10/23/07 Tue
      • I wonder if John will return to England in the next Book. If he stays and becomes an American will he be more or less under the microscope? John as romantic hero is something I've been thinking about. He certainly is to my mind but in the usual pattern of the genre he and Percy didn't go through the usual sort of courtship or even the passionate-abduction or forced-marriage/love-ya-later format. Maybe in later years he'll settle into house-keeping with a "secretary". I find it interesting that Tom Byrd doesn't remark about Mr Percy being about so much. (NT) -- kgp, 08:45:51 10/23/07 Tue
        • Why would Percy's presence be remarkable? He's a member of the family, as well as Lord John's friend. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 11:19:56 10/23/07 Tue
          • I find it interesting that Tom hasn't caught on myself. Not because Percy is around so much, but rather because the details of Tom's job entail a certain amount of intimacy with John. (NT) -- Oleander, 12:09:52 10/23/07 Tue
            • What makes you think Tom doesn't know? A few years ago the "public" had no idea that Rock Hudson, Raymond Burr, George Nader (to name a few) were gay, but I bet their closest and well-trusted friends and employees knew. (NT) -- MelvaT, 12:34:15 10/23/07 Tue
              • Well, I guess I was thinking about the common beliefs surrounding "sodomy" and the like, and the circumstances under which Tom and John were aquainted (wasn't Tom's brohter accused of Sodomy or something?) Could Tom know? Sure, I think so. But I do think it is a whole different kettle of fish than gentlemen and their closest friends in this century knowing. (NT) -- Oleander, 14:58:58 10/23/07 Tue
                • Exactly, a whole different trout. But either way, Tom seems to me to be not only intelligent, but a compassionate man. He respects LJG and he respects his own position. Outing John would gain nothing for him personally other than the loss of a very good job. (NT) -- MelvaT, 15:26:13 10/23/07 Tue
            • There's a bit in Private Matter, where Lord John reflects that "he shuddered to think what Tom Byrd knew of his own intimacies." No matter what Tom knew, though, he almost certainly wouldn't say anything. It's a big deal, trespassing on custom and manners, when he says in BOTB "I'm that sorry, me lord," about John's father's having (presumably) committed suicide while insane. (NT) -- maddiej, 13:48:37 10/23/07 Tue
              • I think he was referring more to his personal habits at home, dunking his biscuits in his tea or how snug he had his small clothes tailored, that sort of thing. Tom had no idea Jack was homosexual. (NT) -- kgp, 15:03:08 10/23/07 Tue
                • I'm not sure Tom realized there was such a thing, until the man on the bridge grabbed him by the balls and put his [ahem] into Tom's hand. He'd probably heard of sodomites, I mean, but he wasn't looking for Jack; he was just following Lord John, and only after realizing what kind of neighborhood they were in, and knowing what kind of investigation Lord John was engaged in, did he think to ask whether Lord John was looking for Jack there. (NT) -- maddiej, 16:56:16 10/23/07 Tue
                  • Tom had me in stitches! the way he followed John to Lavendar House to be sure the inhabitants knew that someone knew where john was and if anything happened they would answer for it! (NT) -- kgp, 18:40:20 10/23/07 Tue
  • LJG not only has to face this dilemma of honor, but to pretend to condemn a friend and relative of a crime he is guilty of himself. And what of this moment in itself? Can you imagine the anxiety LJG must be going through? The fear that one day, if he himself is found out, that Hal may have to ask him to uphold the family honor and commit suicide. At this point, whichever way he turns, he's going to come out looking like a hypocrite in his own eyes. Be a damned hard thing for a man like LJG to live with for the rest of his life. (NT) -- MelvaT, 13:07:30 10/23/07 Tue
    • That's why he goes to Jamie, I think. He says, "Because, God damn it, you are the only person in this world to whom I can speak frankly." In other words, the only one to whom he can lay out his problem, but also the only one who might be able to help him, as one who understands honor the same way he does. And in spite of the catastrophic way that conversation ends, he does find his way clear as a result of it. (NT) -- maddiej, 14:50:42 10/23/07 Tue
      • Yes, LJG knows that Jamie believes in honor the same as himself, but also that Jamie hasn't and isn't going to tell anyone about his sexual preference. John's attraction to other men may disgust Jamie, but he obviously doesn't think John should be disgraced and killed because of it. (NT) -- MelvaT, 15:16:20 10/23/07 Tue
        • I don't know whether he thinks John should be disgraced and killed or not. The fact is, he's in no position to tell anyone about Lord John, except Lord Dunsany and the other servants. Dunsany certainly wouldn't listen to that kind of calumny, and what point would there be in telling the servants? I think John feels himself safe because Jamie simply *can't* reveal his secret, though he may also feel that he wouldn't. (NT) -- maddiej, 16:59:23 10/23/07 Tue
  
  

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• Pamela's wonderful week of brotherhood quotes has made me think about a book I read years ago that I thought many of you might enjoy. I started re-reading it this week and loved it even more than I did the first time through. I hope it OK to talk about it here. It is called The Jacobite Trilogy, and it is ALL about brotherhood, honor among soldiers, and gentlemen. It is all about Ewen Cameron, a VERY Jamie like character you will LOVE! It was written in the 20s by a woman, D.K. Broster who graduated from a ladies' College then went on to "read history" at Oxford. No sex, the loves, children, and wives are minor characters but it is an amazing story none the less. -- Jane, 07:18:52 10/20/07 Sat [7]
  It begins the day that the Prince arrives in Scotland. Ewen who'd been orphaned by the "little Jacobite rising in 1719" joins his cousin Lochiel in the very first battle (High Bridge) of the 45. Ewen takes an Englishman prisoner after that battle and they begin a sort of strange friendship (a little like Jamie's and John's though neither of them are gay). Ewen saves Keith a couple of times and Keith saves Ewen from being shot after Culloden and risks his career by refusing to testify against him. In the end of the first part one of Ewen's men kills Keith while he is making his escape to join his wife in France.
  Part 2 finds Ewen back on his estate in Scotland 7 years later with his wife and his two children (Donald, named for Lochiel and Keith, named for his friend). He's tried to stay away from the Jacobites but he finds his Jacobite brother in law Hector Grant (who is also an officer in the Army in France) injured while he himself is out trying to get a doctor for his sick son. His brother in law has been hurt while being robbed of a letter that would disclose the whereabouts of his other cousin Archie Cameron, who is wanted by the English. Ewen leaves brother in law in a farm and tells the farmer to find the doctor he was looking for, for him while he pushes on to locate his cousin and brings him home. Archie (you'll remember he was a doctor too) cures Ewen's son, but his brother in law sends the other Doctor who cared for him back to take care of Ewen's son. That Doctor reports Archie's being there to the English. Ewen manages to confuse the soldiers long enough when they come to arrest him to allow Archie to get away but he is then arrested and though he escapes finds himself once again on the English radar. Lots of adventures in Northern Scotland follow and in the end Ewen is nearly killed trying to protect Archie who is taken by the English (because of his size the English just leave him to die in the woods). Ewen of course doesn't die but goes to London and does all he can to get Archie's sentence (hanging, drawing and quartering) commuted, befriending Keith's brother and step father in the process. We all know that he isn't successful, the the story is beautiful. In the end you will love Ewen and Archie almost as much as you love Jamie.
  Part 3 is after the execution. You wish that Ewen would just stay home and raise his family (a new daughter is born soon after they return home) but NO. Archie had convinced Ewen to have the grace to forgive the fellow scot who had turned him over the the English. Ewen didn't kill him but he didn't completely forgive him either. Actually he was a scum and I couldn't forgive him either but I haven't finished that part of my re-read and don't want to tell you all the end anyhow. Enough to say it is very exciting reading and you will LOVE the noble men in this book. I've often wondered if herself had read it. Though she had Ewen die just after Culloden with Jamie's kiss his last human touch, so perhaps she didn't.
  

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  • Wow, Jane! What an impressive summary, and thank you for steering me to what sounds like a wonderful tale, with more powerful and charming Jacobite heroes to get to know. I guess we are all somewhat partial to Jacobites, but we do make allowances for Lord John... *g* (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:24:42 10/20/07 Sat
    • I didn't mean to hog up so much space on the board. The bigger chunk was supposed to go inside. I finished the book today, enjoyed every word, a little more romance in the end...pretty darn chaste though. (NT) -- Jane, 16:12:40 10/20/07 Sat
      • Jane, don't apologize! Thanks for bringing this to our attention! I WANT this! (NT) -- CatherineM., 07:59:59 10/21/07 Sun
        • There is a much more literate summary of the books to be found in a paper written by an old Hoser named Belinda. I pasted a quote from the paper concerning how D.K. Broster's novels may have influenced Diana inside. It mentions Lord John and Jamie, so I thought it might be OK to bring it up here. For the whole article check out http://www.collectingbooksandmagazines.com/broster.html -- Jane, 18:32:57 10/22/07 Mon
    • I need to quit working so I can read all the good stuff that's out there. It's just not fair! (NT) -- kgp, 05:37:45 10/21/07 Sun
      • Hee hee Karen, I must be crazy, working, going to school four nights a week, and totally sunk into a complicated nearly 1000 page book, while the laundry doesn't get done, the house doesn't get cleaned, and we eat out every night (which we honestly can't afford to do). Thank goodness I am done...but I have to say it was worth it to fall in love with Ewen again! P.S. I actually cooked last night and did the laundry, though the house is still trashed. The kids are 13, 19, and 21, so they don't suffer much anymore when I am deep in the "gotta read a book mode". ;-) (NT) -- Jane, 07:51:10 10/21/07 Sun
  
  

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• QOTD for Sunday, October 21, 2007 -- Lady Jay, 22:02:44 10/20/07 Sat [18]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 4, Chisping. Copyright © 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  Gerald Grey, Earl of Melton, had been a clever man. Of an ancient and honorable family, well educated, handsome, wealthy--and of a restless, curious turn of mind. He had also been a very fine soldier.
  
  Sounds a lot like someone else we know. *G* You were going to get a week of quotes that for me illustrated the way Lord John's character grew in depth and breadth in this book. A major theme of the book kept popping up though, so I changed gears a bit. Today's quote is a nice jumping off point. I enjoyed hearing LJG speak of his father in BOTB. I think we see a lot of him in his sons.
  
  And don't you just love how DG expands our vocabulary! No chisping here yet, but I'm sure this word will come in handy later.
  

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  • Gerald is intriguing and must have been quite a man for Benedicta to have been so in love with him. And I agree - chisping is a very good word, makes me look forward to the start of Winter. (NT) -- kgp, 04:18:39 10/21/07 Sun
  • What is "chisping" and where does the word come from. Google doesn'r recognize it at all. It's about snow, but how exactly? (NT) -- Helka, 05:48:57 10/21/07 Sun
    • Hi Helka, I couldn't find the word chisping on any of my dictionary sites. Could it be based on the sound that snow and frozen ground makes when you walk on them? (NT) -- Jane, 07:58:38 10/21/07 Sun
    • In the first line of that chapter, DG describes chisping as "that ambiguous sort of precipitation, half snow, not quite drizzle." Don't know what the origin is. (NT) -- Lady Jay (), 08:15:06 10/21/07 Sun
      • I asked about the origin of the word on Compuserve and Diana said it was a word used by her mother's side of the family (who are of English descent). Interestingly enough, if you Google "chisping", one of the links that comes up is the link to that very same Compuserve thread where the question was asked . (NT) -- Karen (), 08:49:39 10/21/07 Sun
        • I saw that thread. I also wondered if the Karen there was a Karen who also posts here. Now I know! *G* (NT) -- Lady Jay, 09:05:12 10/21/07 Sun
          • Yes, that was me :-) (NT) -- Karen, 09:19:02 10/21/07 Sun
        • Yes Karen, I saw the thread, but what kind of snow fall is chisping. Please bear with me here, it's just that in Finnish there are lots of of words for snow and each have a bit different meaning. I gather chisping means seeing some dry flakes dancing in the air in a dry freezing day. (NT) -- Helka, 09:21:33 10/21/07 Sun
          • Well, my impression (based solely on the description in the book, so I might be wrong) is that it's a very very light snow, that would be called "drizzle" if it was raining. The sort of precipitation that can't decide whether it wants to be rain or snow. (We get that a lot here in Raleigh, NC, so it made perfect sense to me.) I don't believe it's the kind of snow that sticks to the ground, though. Again, this is all just my speculation based on what's written in that brief description in the book. (NT) -- Karen, 09:28:54 10/21/07 Sun
            • I thought it was an almost drizzle, just barely cold enough to be real snow. Sort of a soft sleet? (NT) -- kgp, 09:50:18 10/21/07 Sun
              • I've never heard of chisping before and when I googled it, I got to the Compuserve link, which was very interesting. DG says it was used by her grandfather or great grandfather, I can't remember which. It put me in mind of my beloved grandfather who died many years ago, he used some odd words and phrases to entertain me, some of which he had made up himself. It made me wonder if this was such a word, I've looked in all my dictionaries and it isn't anywhere to be found. Interestingly, on the same Compuserve link, someone asks about drawing pins, I didn't think there would be any difficulty with this word, as it is all I call the things, round, metal with a short but very sharp point, for pinning paper items to walls or boards. (NT) -- Kirsten, 14:08:47 10/21/07 Sun
                • Where I live we call those "thumbtacks" (or "push pins" for the ones with plastic heads instead of metal). I'd never heard of drawing pins until I saw that Compuserve thread (never noticed the reference in the book....) (NT) -- Karen, 14:31:26 10/21/07 Sun
  • Oh I just love how hoser minds sometimes run right along the same lines... I've been thinking about "chisping" every time it starts to get wet and cold, and waiting for the chance to use it! Lovely quote to start with, Lady Jay; a restless mind is such a good thing in a person, especially when combined with all the other Grey qualities. (NT) -- pamelalass, 05:49:05 10/21/07 Sun
    • Just saw your note below, and wish to extend my deepest regrets for "previewing" one of your chosen quotes! True confessions: I had planned to do my week on John's friendships with women, so I had to scramble when Vicki did such a great week on that theme! *G* (NT) -- pamelalass, 05:53:41 10/21/07 Sun
      • There have been some great themes so far! Mel started out with a look at some of the great writing. We've focused on Stephan, the strong women surrounding LJG, and your look at brotherhood. I'd found more than a week's worth of quotes that were applicable, so no problem. There are a lot of great moments in this book to choose from! (NT) -- Lady Jay, 08:27:57 10/21/07 Sun
        • Oh boy have I been holding my breath over this...I knew from the start what my theme would be, and have been anxiously waiting to see if anyone else will do it! Since I am next week, I think I am in the clear!` (NT) -- Oleander, 06:13:22 10/22/07 Mon
  • BOTB has been a most fascinating and personal read for me, including all the new vocabulary. (An Old English dictionary helps.) Thank you Jay, I'm really looking forward to your week of quotes! (NT) -- MelvaT, 14:40:50 10/21/07 Sun
  
  

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• Quote of the Day for Thursday, October 18, 2007 -- pamelalass, 20:20:42 10/17/07 Wed [30]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 27, "The Honorable Thing." Copyright (c) 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  "Not a fucking word!" He struck his fist violently upon his knee.
  
  "You do this," he went on, voice trembling, "you not only destroy yourself, you embroil us all -"
  
  "All. You and your bloody brother and your goddamned family honor, you mean –"
  
  "Yes, our goddamned family honor! And the honor of the regiment – of which you are a sworn officer, I remind you. How dare you utter the word 'honor'? Yet you do dare – and presume further to demand that I not only perform some miracle to save your life, but to save you from all consequences of your folly?"
  

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  • Poor, foolish Percy. As much as John cares for him, Percy is not a true member of any brotherhood. No longer an honorable step-brother for John and Hal, and not as an honorable officer. John shows enormous restraint in this scene despite his outburst, confirming that he and Percy are truly worlds apart now. (NT) -- teddie, 05:10:54 10/18/07 Thu
    • Yes, yes, teddie, that's exactly what I was thinking, and why I included this quote! There's a moment shortly before the betrayal, when Percy is trying to compliment John on his bravery under fire, and John is just embarrassed, alarmed at his own continuing attraction to this man who, he now realizes, doesn't "perceive the essential truth of the matter ... it was his duty." (p. 320). So, ironically, the principal love interest in the book, and "new brother by marriage", is the one man with whom Grey cannot share an authentic sense of brotherhood. Even in terms of the underground "brotherhood" of homosexuals, Percy fails him, by bringing the betryal "home"; indeed seeming to ask to be discovered. (NT) -- pamelalass, 05:47:57 10/18/07 Thu
  • Slap the bitch! I know Percy gave his excuses but he could have put Weber off if he wanted too. Besides, Weber knew the area better than Percy, why go to John's quarters unless hoping to get caught? Ass. He threw it all away. (NT) -- kgp, 05:18:51 10/18/07 Thu
    • That is exactly what John asked him. Percy was too weak and too accustomed to giving himself away, not that this excuses Percy in any way. You are right, kgp. He does throw it all away, family included, which may be the worst aspect of his loss. (NT) -- teddie, 05:22:44 10/18/07 Thu
    • Percy is weak, and I don't have any patience for him, either. But I do wonder why it seems that Grey is so alone - - are there no other men who prefer men who are also equal to him in strength, honor, courage, etc? So far he has a string of love affairs that have ended badly; his lovers are either weak, or dead. I know we've talked about Stephan as a possible soul mate, but is it possible that part of the Grey "mystique" is his alone-ness? And if there is an unpleasant subtext in the fact that Grey is not granted a worthy love interest and a "forever love", should we chalk it up to the historical circumstances facing a homosexual man in the 18th century? But why does he have to pine so for a heterosexual man he can never have? (NT) -- pamelalass, 06:02:30 10/18/07 Thu
      • Is he not finding a "forever" love because of his orientation or because he has a military - style life where he is on campaign through the warmer months and in training and camp throughout the winter months. Once the regiment gets their marching orders he barely has time for Percy anyway, he has 90 seconds before falling asleep in which ti deal with any passing thoughts of him he may have time for. Does he pine for Jamie or the notion of Jamie? He knows Jamie through Ardsmuir but how unguarded were those conversation really? They discussed books and played chess, discussed military campaigns - I think John is in love with the idea of having that relationship plus the physical pleasures but it also indicates that he values the intellectual closeness more than the physical closeness. Maybe that's why he never feels closer to Isobel than a brother or family friend, she couldn't meet him on an intellectual level. Had she been able to they might have been happier. (NT) -- kgp, 09:48:04 10/18/07 Thu
        • Wow, you've got a lot of interesting things here! I so agree that John needs the intellectual along with the physical, and that he and Jamie "clicked" as intellectual friends and equals, and maybe the notion of there being something more ends up being just that, a notion. But certainly even in this book, where they are so at odds, he continues to fixate on Jamie's specific physical presence - - details of his appearance, tone of voice, even his sleeping quarters! So it does feel to me as if there's a subtext that suggests the only person who could truly be everything John needs is a larger-than-life, romantic, virile - - and heterosexual - - hero. I like your thought about Isobel, too. Too bad she wouldn't have had access to the same kind of education, if not to the other experiences that shaped John's intellect. (NT) -- pamelalass, 11:13:57 10/18/07 Thu
          • "he continues to fixate on Jamie's specific physical presence " Don't we all???? I wonder of part of it for John at least is the mystery of Jamie. Who is this man, really? What is it about him beyond just physical presence (NT) -- kgp, 11:52:30 10/18/07 Thu
            • I have to say, I see John's love for Jaime as a combination of unrequited love and infatuation. What I mean is, it is so much easier to love some one from afar when you aren't *really* their lover. You can fixate on the tiny details, love all the little insignificant pieces of them, but still never *know* them the way a spouse or lover will. Unrequited love and infatuation can become so much bigger than yourself in a situation like this. Because there is no return or hope of return of affection, Johns feelings are like that dragon fly in amber, frozen in time with no forward motion or growth. (NT) -- Oleander, 12:37:02 10/18/07 Thu
              • Oleander - this is what I've been saying for years - that John can and will NEVER know Jamie the way Claire does. It is impossible. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:27:03 10/18/07 Thu
                • The same for Black Jack Randall - when he confronted Claire in the churchyard with how she could never give Jamie what he did. That's bull and he was blowing hot air. BJR could never know Jamie the way Claire did/does. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:31:14 10/18/07 Thu
                  • I don't see Jack Randall's unstable, criminal obsession as a parallel here, or as unrequited love. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:33:56 10/18/07 Thu
                • Of course it is impossible; they'll never be lovers, spouses, soul mates, or any of the other things that Jamie is for Claire. John and Claire know Jamie in completely different ways, as they each acknowledge. But why shouldn't John, the hero of his own story, have his own "Claire", even if his "Claire" would need to be a man like Jamie? (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:37:20 10/18/07 Thu
                  • I hear you! I think that John should have his own Claire. Will he find someone who will help him move past Jaime? I certainly hope so. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:13:43 10/19/07 Fri
              • Oleander, this is beautiful, especially your bittersweet characterization of unrequited love! (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:30:30 10/18/07 Thu
                • Awww, thanks Pamela ! *blushes* (NT) -- Oleander, 09:47:54 10/19/07 Fri
              • Plus---John also seems to be still mourning Hector - who we know he did love and although he is ready to move on, even the physical aspect he isn't as ready to share some things that he freely shared with Hector...although the rape happened after, still, he seems to be like a widower and Jamie is *safe* since there is no real chance of it happening. ye ken? (NT) -- Ciara, 22:18:12 10/20/07 Sat
            • Yeah, we do! Fixate, that is... *G* I think I was as breathless reading the scene where John looks around the stable loft for a place to leave the note, as he was...! It was oddly intimate to "see" Jamie's humble sleeping quarters that way, and reminded me of the small details of his life in the cave. (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:42:24 10/18/07 Thu
      • Wow and wow. There is so much great stuff here, I'm not sure where to start! Pamelalass, I do believe that John must remain alone mostly because of historical circumstances. What might he do, afterall, given his social position--the need for discretion seems to make it almost impossible for John. Were he a more bohemian type, things could be different for him, perhaps.>>>>>> -- teddie (), 14:41:24 10/18/07 Thu
        • I like your musings here, teddie. However we define John's feelings about Jamie, I don't think they are "true love," and I love your simple yet brilliant observation that it can't be, because it's one-sided. There are so many wonderful insights from everyone, and I also especially like the idea that Jamie's inaccessibility to John has in fact furthered the unfortunate and unrequited desire, and allowed it to take on a life of its own. And yes, there's no practical way to imagine John and some other Jamie-esque man having a domestic life like John & Isobel will, in the world these characters inhabit. >>>> -- pamelalass, 17:28:21 10/18/07 Thu
          • Pamelalass, I wish for the same--that John's full story has yet to be told, and that good things will come to those that wait, lol! Considering, though, the scrupulous honor and social correctness DG has attributed to John, it would seem unfathomable for John to bust out in full love mode (ok, so I exaggerate a little!), There is evidence though, that our handsome Johnny circumvents the predictable in this story, (his behavior at the hanging, for example), illustrating his willingness to raise eyebrows for what he believes is just. Perhaps there is hope... (NT) -- teddie, 18:06:04 10/18/07 Thu
        • Thank you for stating so clearly what I was trying to say. You are right, it is not infatuation. It was the only word that I could think of to convey the feeling I had in mind. The feeling of loving someone who cannot and will not love you back, and how your feelings can become so heightened and intense. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:22:12 10/19/07 Fri
  • Oh, I'm loving this discussion so far. Percy not of any "brotherhood", verra verra clever, Pamela. I never really thought too heavily about Percy, that's why I love these discussions. I see the book and characters in different lights. But, even with such a wimp like Percy, did John say he did *love* him in his own way. What kind of love do you think John meant? Obviously, not the deep emotional love and respect he has for Jamie or even Stephan. But what kind of love? Perhaps a love that only homosexual men can understand with one another? I don't know. And, do you think Percy loved John? I'm really looking forward to this reread. (NT) -- Conmama, 06:32:09 10/18/07 Thu
    • Oh, and your post just reminded me that Percy's an orphan too, so he is literally without brothers/family as well, if I am remembering this correctly... (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:40:24 10/18/07 Thu
      • He wasn' orphaned until he was an adult,I think, his mother died a few months after marrying General Stanley (for he is a ma-jor general -he is! Hurrah for the ma-jor general) I do think Percy loved John for he saw something he didn't have with other lovers, a relationship that was not only sexual but fraternal as well as intimate and romantic. He also saw th echance of being part of a family that was not disfunctional as his own had been. It seems as though General Stanley (hurrah!) was good to him and treated him as a son but still it was not a true family unit. (NT) -- kgp, 09:30:11 10/18/07 Thu
    • I wonder, was part of John's "love" for Percy due to his weakness? A desire to take care of a teach him? John enjoyed showing off his strength and superior skill, drawing Percy into the military life and tutoring him. Maybe a part of the attraction was because Percy was weaker than he. Could John ever really love someone inherently weaker than he- in the long run, would he not always desire an equal, that brotherhood he feels he shares with jaime which attracts him? (NT) -- Oleander, 12:40:42 10/18/07 Thu
      • John takes care of people - Percy was at the least astute enough to see that. Percy was interested in a lot of the same entertainments as John if not as well read due to circumstance of birth. I think John liked the idea of sharing his world with Percy and saw the unused intellect waiting to be fed. (NT) -- kgp, 14:56:52 10/18/07 Thu
  • Your theme brought to my mind an old Dire Straits song Brothers in Arms. Do you know this song? It suits your theme and to Lord John's life so perfectly. A video inside >> -- Helka, 06:33:50 10/18/07 Thu
    • Ooh, thanks Helka! What a lovely connection. It is a powerful theme in all DG's books, but especially and uniquely explored in BOTB. (NT) -- pamelalass, 11:15:26 10/18/07 Thu
  
  

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• Quote of the Day for Saturday, October 20, 2007 -- pamelalass, 20:16:13 10/19/07 Fri [11]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 9, "Unnatural Acts." Copyright (c) 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  “Don’t bellow, there’s a good chap,” Quarry said, pressing both hands against his temples, apparently in hope of keeping the contents of his head from escaping.
  
  “Late night, was it?” Grey pulled up a stool and leaned on the desk, eyeing his friend.
  
  “I believe I’ve eaten something that disagreed with me,” Quarry said with dignity, and stifled a belch by way of illustration.
  
  “Really? What was her name?”
  
  Quarry burst into a violent coughing fit that left his wig askew and his face empurpled.
  
  “You hound,” he said hoarsely, tenderly patting his chest. “What the devil d’you want, anyway?”
  
  Thanks for all the wonderful insights this week; there were layers of brotherhood I hadn't considered when I started out, so, as usual, the discussions here have immeasurably enriched my experience of the book(s)! Thought I would end with something funny, and Harry Quarry is the one "brother" and close comrade I am still trying to figure out. Is he John's best friend? His mentor? How close can they be when John holds such a key aspect of his identity secret from Harry? Or does he?
  

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  • Lord John's bawdy comment, in addition to being called a hound by Quarry makes me truly laugh out loud everytime I read it. I love the banter between John and Quarry; their brotherhood is touching in a way all its own. I think it's the British gentlemanly stuff combined with plain old manly nonsense that does it for me in this scene. On the serious side, John must hide his sexual self from just about everyone, yet he still manages to have meaningful relationships with others. His strong sense of honor keeps him grounded, and his acceptance of self eliminates the debilitating guilt that might be part of someone less well-adjusted than John. What does Harry really know? Excellent question, Pamelalass. considering, that virtually all of the people important to John are also very intuitive individuals. (NT) -- teddie (), 20:35:59 10/19/07 Fri
    • I think he definitely keeps his sexuality hidden from Harry Quarry. Look at the events in Private Matter, when he finds himself in the brothel at Harry's instigation. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 23:07:46 10/19/07 Fri
      • That morning after scene in the brothel was one of my very FAVORITE Harry and Nessie moments, they are two of my favorite "minor" characters in the Lord John books! How Nessie's "mouth twisted in revulsion" at the thought of bedding the red eyed, disheveled Harry. Lord John's though that she "really had no tact, for a whore". Then John telling Harry he didn't think he'd like her because she was "Scotch". John really liked them both and was sort of protecting them from eachother, quite touching really. (NT) -- Jane, 06:06:26 10/20/07 Sat
    • I thoroughly agree about the delightful appeal of John's bawdy British banter!! And I agree about John's closest friends/family being intuitive, in addition to loving him. Perhaps it is a case of knowing and not knowing for Quarry and others (Hal? Benedicta? Olivia?). Perhaps DG crafts her characters' communication on more than one level so that Grey, for all his honor, dignity, and courage, becomes an 18th-century model homosexuality as "the love that dare not speak its name." It's real, it's "true" love -- or it can be, even if not yet for our John -- (and this is what he argues with Jamie about), but it must not be named as such. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:07:24 10/20/07 Sat
  • Ah, but Harry hates to think. In PM it took an entire cigar for him to reason through telling John about the spy ring. That was more stuff that Hal had kept from John. Harry has aspects unrevealed also, who would have guessed he was the Sub-Genius? John is quite adept at maintaining a hairy-man facade with Harry and enjoys the knuckle-dragging banter. (NT) -- kgp, 03:15:36 10/20/07 Sat
    • Great way to put it - he hates to think! There is something about the delicate way Harry tells John about Percy's whereabouts, when he visits during John's recovery from the shrapnel surgery. Quarry tells him that Longstreet is back in England, and updates him on the status of Percy's legal situation. It's completely beneath the surface, but I felt as if I could sense that Harry knows something, but knows that to be John's friend, to love him as a brother, is to be discreet. Plus, he "hates to think," especially about something that there's no point in speaking of, so he feels no need to dig deeper just to satisfy his own curiosity. Also, you're right about HQ having his own hidden depths. (NT) -- pamelalass (), 06:54:58 10/20/07 Sat
      • Yes, though Harry's delicacy in telling John about Percy could as easily be on the basis that Percy _was_ John's step-brother, and he knew they'd been good friends before Percy's arrest. Also, he knows that Grey has to testify against Percy. I think that's plenty to explain his delicacy, without his suspecting anything else. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 08:37:53 10/20/07 Sat
  • Waves to pamelalass! Awesome week! You got in all kinds of wiews of brotherhood and raised great discussion, thanks lass. (NT) -- Helka, 11:22:18 10/20/07 Sat
    • I agree - Awesome Week! Now i need to go back and read everything again starting with Hellfire. Must treat myself to the audios also. (NT) -- kgp, 14:44:24 10/20/07 Sat
  • Wonderful week of quotes this week, pamelalass! (Even if you did use one quote that I had earmarked. *G*) You're a tough act to follow. :-) (NT) -- Lady Jay, 22:05:33 10/20/07 Sat
  
  

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• Quote of the Day for Friday, October 19, 2007 -- pamelalass, 20:19:10 10/18/07 Thu [30]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 29, "Dawn of Battle." Copyright (c) 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  “Right,” Hal went on. “There are fragments of metal in your chest; they’re going to remove them.” He hesitated, then his fingers closed gently over Grey’s.
  
  “I’m sorry, Johnny,” he said, low-voiced. “I don’t dare let them give you opium. It’s going to hurt a lot.
  
  “Are … you under th-the im…pression that this is … news to me?”
  
  Not until this book did I understand Lord John as a commander, fighter, war hero, and survivor. These combat experiences are another aspect of his "brotherhood" with other officers, including both his actual brother, and his Scottish prisoner...
  

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  • John's recognition through out th ebook of how much Hal loves him is the absolute best part. (NT) -- kgp, 05:34:11 10/19/07 Fri
    • Yes! I agree, kgp. I never really expected a closer examination of John's relationship with Hal; that was a surprise for me, and truly one of the most important aspects of this story. (NT) -- teddie, 05:49:13 10/19/07 Fri
    • Yes, I'd have to say that one of the biggest surprises in this book was how close Hal and John are. I always thought with the age difference there wasn't a very close bond between them. I was delighted to see that John and Hal were even closer than most brothers. Hal was also the head of the family, John's commanding officer, but even more Hal was a good friend as well. (NT) -- Jane, 06:20:26 10/19/07 Fri
      • I agree; they are closer and share more affection than I thought they would, which is just lovely to read about. But John spends much of this book angry at Hal, and feeling less than trusting of his older brother's motives in sending him away during times of family crisis, etc., so it's a perfect example of the fierce double-edged blade of love and hurt that characterizes an authentic brotherhood such as theirs. They are brothers in so much more than name only. (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:39:44 10/19/07 Fri
        • Yes, Pamela, the brothers aren't always on the same page and John is irritated by being kept in the dark. If the both of them had shared their knowledge they would have solved the secret around their father much earlier. I bet Hal didn't like that little brother solved the case alone, by hunting "a wild goose". (NT) -- Helka, 09:57:09 10/19/07 Fri
          • So true! As in the swordplay scene, where John bests Hal, there's a strong sense that Hal much prefers to be the "older brother", be the one who is "on top". John comments about how he even lets Hal win sometimes, I think, because he doesn't mind, and it makes Hal feel that things are properly balanced if his little brother is not able to best him. But I hadn't thought about how much Hal would have wanted to be the one to figure out the secret and vindicate the family honor. They both have a strong sense of their own very different roles as the elder/younger sons, and Hal is the unchallenged head of the family, except when John can't help himself, because of his own sense of honor, duty, or -- sometimes -- stubbornness. (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:31:24 10/19/07 Fri
        • It's also a confirmation of how adolescent hurts, grudges and impressions color our lives into adulthood. Sometimes it does seem that 7th grade is forever. No matter what else has happened the baseline reaction is usually a 12 yr old's then hopefully maturity and experience moderates the response. John was traumatized by his father's murder but rather than nurtured and comforted he was sent away feeling he wasn't good enough to stand up for the family like Hal. He knows he was sent away for his own safety but it still smarts. (NT) -- kgp, 10:11:12 10/19/07 Fri
          • Great insight -- John's fixation on being considered to young to "stand and fight" with his family does have a tinge of adolescent frustration. (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:33:50 10/19/07 Fri
  • I absolutely love Hal and John in this scene. Oh my. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:42:52 10/19/07 Fri
    • I know. It makes me fall in love with Hal too! (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:53:13 10/19/07 Fri
  • I understood Hal standing by to be sure they wouldn't amputate by why refuse the opium? It was the only effective analgesic they had for this sort of thing. The other interesting but was the piece of chewed leather Hal said was their father's. Interesting that Hal carries it with him. It's an odd relic to have handy like that but also a very personal thing. (NT) -- kgp, 08:11:52 10/19/07 Fri
    • Weren't the brothers suspicious of the doctor (can't remember his name). They thought of him to be behind Johns attack. He could give opium too much and "accidentally" kill him.The leather was IMHO a memory of the pain; Hal 's, mother's and the whole family's pain after the death of his father. So he could maintain his dedication to find out the truth. Again the leather is a mirror of Jamie's pain. (NT) -- Helka, 08:25:17 10/19/07 Fri
      • Yes, Helka, I thought there was an echo of one of Jamie's survival scenes, too. But I am having trouble remembering it -- wasn't there something, maybe even a piece of leather, that the guy who helped rescue him from Wentworth gave him to bite on while Claire worked on his hand? I'm sorry I can't even remember the name of the couple who helped her tend Jamie's wounds. And then there's also just the echo of Jamie surviving so many battles, living through pain, and painful procedures, to fight again. (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:34:21 10/19/07 Fri
        • Yes, Jamie bit down on a piece of leather and crossed his eyes at Claire, it made her laugh. I can't remember in detail what happened, but that always stuck with me. (NT) -- Conmama, 08:39:54 10/19/07 Fri
        • It was Malcolm Grant. I'm thinking lucinda for his wife but that's not right, Annabelle? (NT) -- kgp, 08:45:43 10/19/07 Fri
        • I'm thinking maybe Marcus MacRannoch and his wife? Whoever sheltered them during the episode at Fort William when Claire et al rescued Jamie (the stampeding cattle scene, in which it was thought that BJR died). Claire tended to his wounds in front of the fire and the ladyof the household helps by boiling water etc. Sir . . . (Marcus?), their bear-like host, provided a leather strap to chew on for when the pain becomes unendurable . At least that's what I THINK I remember here at work, with no Outlander! (NT) -- CatherineM, 09:37:09 10/19/07 Fri
          • Yes - thank you, Marcus and Anabelle. (NT) -- kgp, 10:12:18 10/19/07 Fri
          • MacRannoch! that's it. I kept thinking MacGannon, but I knew it wasn't right since that is the clan name in the Kathleen Givens books I've been reading recently.... *g* Thanks, Cathy! (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:23:32 10/19/07 Fri
        • I don't know if it was a deliberate echo, but in a time when most wounded soldiers wouldn't have had access to more than a gulp of brandy by way of anesthetic, giving a man a wad of rags, a strip of leather or a lump of soft lead (like a musket ball) to bite on while being amputated or mended was just common practice. (NT) -- maddiej, 08:45:05 10/20/07 Sat
      • Helka, I believe you are right. I understood that Hal didn't want the opium because the doctor was one of the suspects (NT) -- Oleander, 09:33:43 10/19/07 Fri
        • This scene makes me wonder if Hal does know that LJG is gay. As another concern with Opium is it causes delirium, hallucinations and incoherent babbling. Which would not be a safe condition for a gay man in the 1700's to be in. Be safer to stand the pain. (NT) -- MelvaT, 13:44:20 10/19/07 Fri
          • That's a very interesting thought. John himself does not dwell on what Hal may or may not know. (NT) -- kgp, 14:41:31 10/19/07 Fri
      • Ah! A talisman to carry until he cleared the family name - like Forbes' ear. (NT) -- kgp, 10:49:13 10/19/07 Fri
        • Talisman that's it exactly! Is anthropology your field, perhaps? There are talisman's of love like Hector's ring, why not a talisman of grief or pain, or search of truth in Hal's case. (NT) -- Helka, 11:05:32 10/19/07 Fri
  • Now I'm as thoroughly in love with Hal as I am with John. I think I'm going to cry . . . (NT) -- kgp, 12:15:14 10/19/07 Fri
    • Yes, big weepy smile right back at you! And it just occurred to me that this is a pretty significant thing that's different about John and Jamie - - Jamie has Ian, Sr., and they served in combat together, but he has no blood brother to pass on talismans of Brian... Does Jamie have any such talismans from his father? (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:22:06 10/19/07 Fri
      • He has his father's ring but didn't that go through the stones with Brianna and Amanda? He also has the wee cherrywood snake from Willie. It's sad that Claire has nothing of her parent's. (NT) -- kgp, 12:41:41 10/19/07 Fri
        • Isn't the wood snake in the box for Jemmy - at the end of ABOSAA? (NT) -- GwenM, 17:53:16 10/19/07 Fri
          • It is, but at least it's still intact. I assume from what happened to other gems during passage, that the ruby ring was destroyed. (NT) -- kgp, 19:03:26 10/19/07 Fri
  
  

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• Quote of the Day for Wednesday, October 17, 2007 -- pamelalass, 20:05:38 10/16/07 Tue [10]
  The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade by Diana Gabaldon, Chapter 13, "A Visit to Newgate." Copyright (c) 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved.
  
  “And Richard Caswell mentioned my name to you? In what connexion, may I ask?” He was more than surprised to hear that Caswell had spoken of him, and in fact, doubted it. Dickie Caswell would have died a long time ago were he that careless with the secrets he held.
  
  Bates gave him a long, shrewd look, then shook his head and laughed.
  
  “Play cards, do you, Major?”
  
  “Not often.”
  
  “You should. I see you aren’t easily bluffed.”
  
  Lavender House - - another brotherhood, with risky, high stakes attached to membership. I liked seeing Grey come into his own as a risk-taker and purposeful gambler in this book. He doesn't gamble for entertainment, but he is skilled at strategy when there's a game afoot...
  

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  • Dickie Caswell gave me serious creeps in PM. Eeeew! Watching John calculate a move is intriguing. (NT) -- kgp, 05:23:27 10/17/07 Wed
  • I didn't read Private Matter, but I'm surprised John would take the risk of ever being seen at Lavendar House. He's always so careful, I wouldn't think he would take that risk. (NT) -- Conmama, 06:02:19 10/17/07 Wed
    • God no, John didn't make a habit of visiting Lavender House. The first time he went to Lavender House it was with that horrible George Everett (some scandal connected with him got John shipped off to Ardsmuir) The next time he went there it was in the investigation of "the private matter" and it could have been said he was there on official business. Of course, it was on this "official" visit that he first met Percy (NT) -- Jane, 06:34:08 10/17/07 Wed
      • I was under the impression that in his youth, following Hector's death, John was a regular at Lavender House. You know, he didn't care about life any more and threw caution to the wind, got involved in some scandal and was shipped off? (NT) -- Oleander, 07:10:38 10/17/07 Wed
    • He was rather reckless after Hector died and he returned to London after the Campaign through the Highlands. In PM he was taking a very calculated risk in going to see Caswell and it was for Olivia's sake that he found himself there. (NT) -- kgp, 07:09:29 10/17/07 Wed
      • Ah, thank you Jane and kgp! I didn't ring true that John would risk going there for pleasure. But BOTB, it did say that he saw Percy there, so I just assumed it. Thanks for the clarification! (NT) -- Conmama, 07:12:31 10/17/07 Wed
  • What suprised me in this scene is how calm John is. In PM, the thought of the power that Bowles has over him really frightens him. And Bowles got his information from Dickie, didn't he? How come now John has so much faith in Dickies ability to keep a secret? (NT) -- Oleander, 07:12:11 10/17/07 Wed
    • Yes, he does seem calm. He seems to be thinking that Caswell himself would be exposed to serious risk if he exposed anyone from Lavender House -- either in terms of the business itself, or his personal safety, perhaps? Some of the "lavender brotherhood" may be powerful men, as I recall. What this conversation makes me wonder about is how much John identifies with the Lavender House 'brethren' just by virtue of needing to keep this fundamental aspect of his identity a secret. So it's not so much that he hangs out there, but that he knows all it takes is being identified with, or by, a Lavender House acquaintance, and he becomes "one of them," and this can happen whether or not it's even true, as in Bates's case. Does it create a feeling of solidarity, or of danger, or a strange blend of the two? (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:50:34 10/17/07 Wed
    • John knows that Caswell is selective about who he talks to. He bargains with John for information about Trevalyan, it's only when John tells him he knows what happened at Hellfire that he agrees to talk. Bowles (thank you, I'd been trying to remember that name all morning) must be supplying Caswell with either security or money to keep him as an informant. Caswell's information is not casually given or he would be dead by now. I think you're right about the strange blend, They need to protect eachother but at the same time knowledge is power. While pointing a finger puts yourself at risk of also being condemmed for sodomy, and that's a bond between them, that bond is also a bargaining lever as we see with Bates. (NT) -- kgp, 08:12:10 10/17/07 Wed
  
  

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