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Monday, April 20, 0:16:42

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• John's recognition through out th ebook of how much Hal loves him is the absolute best part. (NT) -- kgp, 05:34:11 10/19/07 Fri
  • Yes! I agree, kgp. I never really expected a closer examination of John's relationship with Hal; that was a surprise for me, and truly one of the most important aspects of this story. (NT) -- teddie, 05:49:13 10/19/07 Fri
  • Yes, I'd have to say that one of the biggest surprises in this book was how close Hal and John are. I always thought with the age difference there wasn't a very close bond between them. I was delighted to see that John and Hal were even closer than most brothers. Hal was also the head of the family, John's commanding officer, but even more Hal was a good friend as well. (NT) -- Jane, 06:20:26 10/19/07 Fri
    • I agree; they are closer and share more affection than I thought they would, which is just lovely to read about. But John spends much of this book angry at Hal, and feeling less than trusting of his older brother's motives in sending him away during times of family crisis, etc., so it's a perfect example of the fierce double-edged blade of love and hurt that characterizes an authentic brotherhood such as theirs. They are brothers in so much more than name only. (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:39:44 10/19/07 Fri
      • Yes, Pamela, the brothers aren't always on the same page and John is irritated by being kept in the dark. If the both of them had shared their knowledge they would have solved the secret around their father much earlier. I bet Hal didn't like that little brother solved the case alone, by hunting "a wild goose". (NT) -- Helka, 09:57:09 10/19/07 Fri
        • So true! As in the swordplay scene, where John bests Hal, there's a strong sense that Hal much prefers to be the "older brother", be the one who is "on top". John comments about how he even lets Hal win sometimes, I think, because he doesn't mind, and it makes Hal feel that things are properly balanced if his little brother is not able to best him. But I hadn't thought about how much Hal would have wanted to be the one to figure out the secret and vindicate the family honor. They both have a strong sense of their own very different roles as the elder/younger sons, and Hal is the unchallenged head of the family, except when John can't help himself, because of his own sense of honor, duty, or -- sometimes -- stubbornness. (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:31:24 10/19/07 Fri
      • It's also a confirmation of how adolescent hurts, grudges and impressions color our lives into adulthood. Sometimes it does seem that 7th grade is forever. No matter what else has happened the baseline reaction is usually a 12 yr old's then hopefully maturity and experience moderates the response. John was traumatized by his father's murder but rather than nurtured and comforted he was sent away feeling he wasn't good enough to stand up for the family like Hal. He knows he was sent away for his own safety but it still smarts. (NT) -- kgp, 10:11:12 10/19/07 Fri
        • Great insight -- John's fixation on being considered to young to "stand and fight" with his family does have a tinge of adolescent frustration. (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:33:50 10/19/07 Fri
  
  

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• I absolutely love Hal and John in this scene. Oh my. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:42:52 10/19/07 Fri
  • I know. It makes me fall in love with Hal too! (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:53:13 10/19/07 Fri
  
  

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• I understood Hal standing by to be sure they wouldn't amputate by why refuse the opium? It was the only effective analgesic they had for this sort of thing. The other interesting but was the piece of chewed leather Hal said was their father's. Interesting that Hal carries it with him. It's an odd relic to have handy like that but also a very personal thing. (NT) -- kgp, 08:11:52 10/19/07 Fri
  • Weren't the brothers suspicious of the doctor (can't remember his name). They thought of him to be behind Johns attack. He could give opium too much and "accidentally" kill him.The leather was IMHO a memory of the pain; Hal 's, mother's and the whole family's pain after the death of his father. So he could maintain his dedication to find out the truth. Again the leather is a mirror of Jamie's pain. (NT) -- Helka, 08:25:17 10/19/07 Fri
    • Yes, Helka, I thought there was an echo of one of Jamie's survival scenes, too. But I am having trouble remembering it -- wasn't there something, maybe even a piece of leather, that the guy who helped rescue him from Wentworth gave him to bite on while Claire worked on his hand? I'm sorry I can't even remember the name of the couple who helped her tend Jamie's wounds. And then there's also just the echo of Jamie surviving so many battles, living through pain, and painful procedures, to fight again. (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:34:21 10/19/07 Fri
      • Yes, Jamie bit down on a piece of leather and crossed his eyes at Claire, it made her laugh. I can't remember in detail what happened, but that always stuck with me. (NT) -- Conmama, 08:39:54 10/19/07 Fri
      • It was Malcolm Grant. I'm thinking lucinda for his wife but that's not right, Annabelle? (NT) -- kgp, 08:45:43 10/19/07 Fri
      • I'm thinking maybe Marcus MacRannoch and his wife? Whoever sheltered them during the episode at Fort William when Claire et al rescued Jamie (the stampeding cattle scene, in which it was thought that BJR died). Claire tended to his wounds in front of the fire and the ladyof the household helps by boiling water etc. Sir . . . (Marcus?), their bear-like host, provided a leather strap to chew on for when the pain becomes unendurable . At least that's what I THINK I remember here at work, with no Outlander! (NT) -- CatherineM, 09:37:09 10/19/07 Fri
        • Yes - thank you, Marcus and Anabelle. (NT) -- kgp, 10:12:18 10/19/07 Fri
        • MacRannoch! that's it. I kept thinking MacGannon, but I knew it wasn't right since that is the clan name in the Kathleen Givens books I've been reading recently.... *g* Thanks, Cathy! (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:23:32 10/19/07 Fri
      • I don't know if it was a deliberate echo, but in a time when most wounded soldiers wouldn't have had access to more than a gulp of brandy by way of anesthetic, giving a man a wad of rags, a strip of leather or a lump of soft lead (like a musket ball) to bite on while being amputated or mended was just common practice. (NT) -- maddiej, 08:45:05 10/20/07 Sat
    • Helka, I believe you are right. I understood that Hal didn't want the opium because the doctor was one of the suspects (NT) -- Oleander, 09:33:43 10/19/07 Fri
      • This scene makes me wonder if Hal does know that LJG is gay. As another concern with Opium is it causes delirium, hallucinations and incoherent babbling. Which would not be a safe condition for a gay man in the 1700's to be in. Be safer to stand the pain. (NT) -- MelvaT, 13:44:20 10/19/07 Fri
        • That's a very interesting thought. John himself does not dwell on what Hal may or may not know. (NT) -- kgp, 14:41:31 10/19/07 Fri
    • Ah! A talisman to carry until he cleared the family name - like Forbes' ear. (NT) -- kgp, 10:49:13 10/19/07 Fri
      • Talisman that's it exactly! Is anthropology your field, perhaps? There are talisman's of love like Hector's ring, why not a talisman of grief or pain, or search of truth in Hal's case. (NT) -- Helka, 11:05:32 10/19/07 Fri
  
  

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• Now I'm as thoroughly in love with Hal as I am with John. I think I'm going to cry . . . (NT) -- kgp, 12:15:14 10/19/07 Fri
  • Yes, big weepy smile right back at you! And it just occurred to me that this is a pretty significant thing that's different about John and Jamie - - Jamie has Ian, Sr., and they served in combat together, but he has no blood brother to pass on talismans of Brian... Does Jamie have any such talismans from his father? (NT) -- pamelalass, 12:22:06 10/19/07 Fri
    • He has his father's ring but didn't that go through the stones with Brianna and Amanda? He also has the wee cherrywood snake from Willie. It's sad that Claire has nothing of her parent's. (NT) -- kgp, 12:41:41 10/19/07 Fri
      • Isn't the wood snake in the box for Jemmy - at the end of ABOSAA? (NT) -- GwenM, 17:53:16 10/19/07 Fri
        • It is, but at least it's still intact. I assume from what happened to other gems during passage, that the ruby ring was destroyed. (NT) -- kgp, 19:03:26 10/19/07 Fri