Good question. Jamie seems to be a natural, though he wasn't born to the actual lairdship, being the second son. John is naive when we first meet him, at 16, but certainly has innate courage and dignity. His "rescue the maiden" fiasco does seem like something a very young Jamie might have done, as someone (was it you??) pointed out earlier this week. Was military service a common thing for second sons ? It's certainly another formative experience these two share. But the kind of leadership John ends up taking on is much more formalized than Jamie's (prison governor, colonial governor, etc.). Leadership would be a great theme, related to the theme we're discussing (honor), yet touching on other strengths and challenges for these men. -- LJG Discussion board

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Date Posted: 13:27:51 10/25/07 Thu
Author:

pamelalass
Subject: Good question. Jamie seems to be a natural, though he wasn't born to the actual lairdship, being the second son. John is naive when we first meet him, at 16, but certainly has innate courage and dignity. His "rescue the maiden" fiasco does seem like something a very young Jamie might have done, as someone (was it you??) pointed out earlier this week. Was military service a common thing for second sons ? It's certainly another formative experience these two share. But the kind of leadership John ends up taking on is much more formalized than Jamie's (prison governor, colonial governor, etc.). Leadership would be a great theme, related to the theme we're discussing (honor), yet touching on other strengths and challenges for these men.
In reply to: kgp 's message, "John does grow quite a bit compared to when he began at Ardsmuir and was looking for the gold as a way to redeem himself and get back to London. Jamie in V in the same scene we were talking about earlier wonders about men who were not born to the role they were required to fill and thinks of John and Charles Stuart in that context. John considers himself born to be a soldier like his father. I guess that's significantly different than administering a prison. Do you think John is a "natural"? or has he grown into his duties as Major Grey?" on 11:48:31 10/25/07 Thu

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Yes, in families with titles and/or property, the oldest son took both. The idea being that to split the estate among several children would dilute it, and thus deprive the family as a whole of influence. So a second son usually did buy a commission and enter the army (the navy, sometimes, but this was considered much lower class), and the third son--if there was one--often joined the church. If you look at the way English society operated during the 14th-late 19th centuries, you can see why this made sense. A family (and family name) would have influence in all three important spheres, and thus be in a better position to gain and exert political power. (NT) -- maddiej, 15:21:22 10/25/07 Thu
- Right. Thanks maddie. I couldn't remember which order they went in for the "assignments" handed out to the second vs. the third son. Does this mean that the Greys are an unusually military family, since it's not just John with the regiment? I'm not familiar enough with the intersection of military leadership and the landed aristocracy -- presumably as either Pardloe or Melton, Hal (or their father) wouldn't have needed to serve in the military to gain status, recognition, or wealth? Perhaps this was his chosen sphere of influence, akin to the way titled men could take up politics by actively engaging in the Lords, etc. And Maj. John Grey's career does demonstrate that military service could lead to privileged political appointments (not Ardsmuir, perhaps, but his other governorship!). (NT) -- pamelalass, 15:34:49 10/25/07 Thu
  - I think John explains this to Percy while telling him about the family scandal. He says that his father raised a regiment and fought for George I, in 1715 or 1719, don't remember which. But that's why the king made him a Duke. And then Hal raises the regiment again, and goes to fight against the second round of Jacobites, in order to restore the family honor. (NT) -- maddiej, 17:02:23 10/25/07 Thu

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