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• There are some terrific discussions already down below, but I don't think my question has been addressed yet. I remember reading that LJ was sent to Ardsmuir because there was some sort of scandal he was involved in. Do we know what that scandal was? I thought it would be explained in this book, but I can't figure out what it is. Also, let me say that this is almost my favorite book of the entire series. I have loved LJ since his very first appearance defending Claire's honor. Getting to see him "in action" as both a military man and a lover has deepened my respect for him. Several of my close family members are homosexual and I feel I understand their motivations much better after reading this. I also read a fair amount of erotica - Diana knows how to put across love and lust very well! -- tlk2vicki, 18:22:47 09/07/07 Fri [36]
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  • Hi tlk2vicki....I have been thinking about this too. Could it be after what happens in Hellfire Club? Or has it yet to be revealed? (NT) -- teddie (), 18:40:24 09/07/07 Fri
    • The only person who may have witnessed an indescretion at the Hellfire Club was Harry Quarry. Yet it was he who preceded John as Governor of Ardsmuir. So I don't think it would have been that occasion that 'banished' Major Grey. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 18:45:20 09/07/07 Fri
      • Well, then I'm thinking that we may have to wait until Lord John and the Scottish Prisoner....I don't think there's been any other mention of what the scandal entails... (NT) -- teddie, 18:48:32 09/07/07 Fri
      • Hmmm... spelled discretion wrong. Is there such a word as 'indiscretion'? (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 18:49:20 09/07/07 Fri
        • Indiscretion is a word...and you spelled it correctly. (NT) -- teddie, 19:00:04 09/07/07 Fri
    • Interested in chatting on irc? (question about erotica...) (NT) -- teddie (), 18:51:06 09/07/07 Fri
      • teddie, come inside>>>> -- tlk2vicki, 20:27:23 09/08/07 Sat
        • ok! I am at chat now, but I will e mail you soon... (NT) -- teddie, 20:56:01 09/08/07 Sat
  • So interesting, tlk2vicki! I don't know what the scandal was either, but your comment about the book helping you gain more understanding makes me wonder how DG came up with it all? I often wonder how she came up with the whole idea of Lord John - he appears as a young naive soldier in Outlander but then comes back as Jamie's warden, and is gay, and falls in love with Jamie??! How did she come up with it?! I've always thought it was a brilliant way to create a subversive love triangle that reinforces the power and strength of the core love story and marriage, and I admire DG's decision to create this strong character, and then to make him a leading man in his own series of books. Still of course I wonder how did she "get" him right? And though we love him a lot, I wonder if gay male readers think of him as a hero? OTOH, he's just a character, and I don't want to suggest that he has to stand in and represent the whole "gay experience" in the 18th century. (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:33:49 09/07/07 Fri
    • Hi pamelalass! I'm deep into my Brotherhood re-read, but checking in here frequently. Diana is indeed brilliant in creating these characters and stories, which for me, require lots of re-visits to fully uinderstand the twists and turns..(I can be slow sometimes). I wonder if Lord John has a gay following of substantial number? I did note that on the Barnes and Noble webpage for the book, the sidebar has links for other books in "Gay and Lesbian" categories. (NT) -- teddie, 06:08:41 09/08/07 Sat
      • Yes, I've been wondering about that too -- I guess I kind of fantasize that he has a lot of male fans swooning over him, because I think he's so swoon-worthy, though I'm sure he'd find the whole notion of being a romantic hero kind of silly! *G* OTOH, we know that he does like to read novels, and talk about them at length (eg. Pamela, of course!) so perhaps he might understand the hosed phenomenon after all... (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:17:57 09/08/07 Sat
    • Here's my take on introducing LJ as a soldier who happens to be homosexual. Much discussion and controversy surrounds Jonathan Randall, a soldier who happens to be a psychopathic sadist. DG has stated emphatically that he is NOT a homosexual but a sadist who used men sexually because he knows it is the most destructive tool for a heterosexual male. He used a whip on his victims, not as a seduction, but to systemactically destroy them physically and psychologically. He could use women also but only if she was as unwilling as the men. To introduce a soldier who is honorable, sensitive, understands the meaning of "no", and admires Jamie's character and intelligence without sexual contact really stirs the pot. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 06:41:57 09/08/07 Sat
      • Thanks so much for coming back to talk about this, ladies. Since he is such a favorite of mine, I find myself pondering all of this quite a lot, but hadn't had the nerve to post about it on the Books board... (sheepish *g*). I completely agree that he exists in the Books to "stir the pot," and I love how DG uses her characters to force readers to examine our assumptions about masculinity, femininity, love, duty, etc. Because he represents something so much more "unknown" to her mainstream readers, John draws a lot of controversy, and having him be in love with Jamie REALLY raises the heat on things. Do you think she decided to do this after readers reacted to BJR in Outlander, or did she have it in mind all along? (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:09:33 09/08/07 Sat
        • That's an interesting question to ponder, pamelalass, since I find few characters in the books that are truly inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the whole storyline existed from the start, or maybe subconsciously so, or maybe they talked to her along the way, or maybe who knows what! Lol...Would you consider posting that question over at Compuserve for DG to respond to? I'd love to hear her answer! (NT) -- teddie, 07:46:36 09/08/07 Sat
          • Oh teddie, I'm shy about asking Herself to comment on my random musings... *g* I'm sure most of the essential elements of the Outlander saga were there from the beginning, even if they were not all fully articulated on a conscious, book-specific level. But feel free to pose the question over there yourself, if there seems to be a likely moment! It's amazing/impressive she's keeping up with her forum at all, with the intense pace of her book tour this month. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:11:03 09/08/07 Sat
            • No, pamelalass, I'll not either...somehow, when I post there, I always end up feeling foolish. My first post there had to do with the theme of euthanasia that presents itself often in the books, but I didn't express myself too well....I'll keep a low profile, then. ( Are you the Pam that posts there with the blonde hair?) (NT) -- teddie, 18:52:48 09/08/07 Sat
              • I've only posted there twice, both times about the early 17th-century portrait of the Duke of Buckingham that LJG and Percy are "ogling" at the Foundling Hospital in BOTB; the Pam with blonde hair posted in that discussion too, but she's not me. *g* I posted as "pamelalass," not having a clue that if I'd used my real name it might possibly have ended up in the acknowledgments instead of my LOL name! But I beg to differ with you about your posts over there -- there's someone who signs as "teddie" though her posting name is something different. If that's you, I always find myself thinking how great your comments are! (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:46:57 09/08/07 Sat
                • My posting name is teepe54...and thank you if that is who you mean, Pamelalass (NT) -- teddie, 19:57:09 09/08/07 Sat
                  • Yes! that's it - a smart woman, teepe54. I always learn something from the questions you come up with! There's an interesting new post over at Compuserve about the flogging scene in BOTB and its echo of the Ardsmuir flogging. Makes me realize (again!) how each reader picks up on different elements in the story, and some analyses enrich the meaning, and the story itself, a great deal. (NT) -- pamelalass, 04:48:30 09/09/07 Sun
                    • I think you're referring to my post on the Compuserve board yesterday. I didn't get a response from Diana but I would be happy to talk about it here (more inside >>>>>>>>>>>) -- Karen, 07:50:19 09/09/07 Sun
                      • I felt a strong sexual component when John allows Percy to flog him; not surprising, considering John's feelings for James entwined with his feelings of guilt and shame. Or am I citing the obvious here? (NT) -- teddie, 08:12:32 09/09/07 Sun
                        • You're definitely right about that. The sexual content of his dreams afterward makes that very clear. (NT) -- Karen, 08:19:45 09/09/07 Sun
                      • Hi Karen, and thank you so much for re-posting your wonderfully insightful comments here! The way this scene both echoes and re-imagines the Ardsmuir flogging sequence is quite powerful. >>>more inside >>> -- pamelalass, 08:47:18 09/09/07 Sun
                        • I think you're right that they do need each other, though they won't realize it until they manage to establish a relationship without all the sexual overtones. I agree that Jamie seems much more hostile in this book than in VOYAGER, but then, he's probably at the lowest point of his life since Culloden. Yes, he's a leader of men, and Lord John has taken that away from him, by separating him from the other Ardsmuir men. It's no wonder that he feels a lot of anger and resentment toward John. It will be really interesting to see how all this is resolved, eventually, in SCOTTISH PRISONER. (NT) -- Karen, 09:03:33 09/09/07 Sun
                          • What a treat it is to get the "blanks" filled in for us, regardless of the fact that it is drawn out a bit (thereby enhancing our anticipation!) Not only is DG excellent at her craft, but she is so generous to give us more and more of these characters. Yes; now I am *truly* citing the obvious. (NT) -- teddie, 09:16:14 09/09/07 Sun
                            • Oh, I can't believe this fun discussion is underway and my DDs are running wild all over the place, stuck inside on this rainy Sunday! I will try to convey this next thought briefly, though I may have to come back to articulate it more coherently. >>> -- pamelalass, 09:47:12 09/09/07 Sun
                              • I agree herself has set herself up for a big job in working all this out in The Scottish Prisoner, but we all know from experience that she is up for the task! Just for the folks who might not have seen the link I posted yesterday, you might want to look at what Diana wrote a while back that might help shed some light on her thoughts about this relationship http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=50820.3&nav=messages&webtag=ws-books&redirCnt=1 (NT) -- Jane, 11:24:23 09/09/07 Sun
                              • I am so sad I missed this fascinating conversation! I am so glad that I wandered back to the LOL boards- I have always wished that I had people to discuss books (these in particular, or any in general) with the way you all are discussing them! (NT) -- Oleander, 13:18:56 09/10/07 Mon
                            • Teddie, I also have a question for you I was going to email >>>> -- pamelalass, 11:53:18 09/09/07 Sun
  • Well, it definitely had something to do with a George Everett, remember John thought about asking about him when writing to his mother the first night he arrived at Ardsmuire? (page 123 paperback version Voyager) His brother Hal had told their Mother his banishment was the result of an "unfortunate affair of the heart". Everett was in Hellfire club but that took place after John had returned from Ardsmuire. On meeting George again in Hellfire Everett's perfume reminded John of "tumbled linens, and the touch of hard and knowing hands". By the end of Hellfire Everett was in a fight with John in Medmenham Abbey after John had been drugged and put in a room with a dead woman to set him up and keep him from ratting out the club. I am guessing a pretty serious falling out since John cut George's face with a bit of jagged glass, before Harry Quarry, coming to save John, ran him through. I assumed Everett died. (NT) -- Jane, 19:51:42 09/07/07 Fri
    • Jane, thanks for bringing up the details about Everett...so then, we must wait for the full explanation. I like unanswered questions in DGs books; it means yet another book to look forward to. (NT) -- teddie, 06:03:32 09/08/07 Sat
    • Now I remember all that from Hellfire. It's in my paperback copy of LJATPM, so I need to read it again. (NT) -- tlk2vicki, 06:04:39 09/08/07 Sat
    • I just re-read my post above and noticed some glaring typos. The whole line I'd put after the quote about John's meeting Everett again disappeared! I'd meant to say that it was obvious that the two had been intimate but by Hellfire their relationship had disintegrated. The rest of the typos are just awkward sounding, so I won't confuse you by trying to fix them, but I had to fix that one at least. Sorry guys I have got to get better remembering to preview. (NT) -- Jane, 07:48:07 09/09/07 Sun
      • Oh Jane, you know typos don't matter! It's just fun getting to talk about LJG with you. So Capitola is tonight?! Jessie got a book signed for me in Virginia and I confess I am soooo excited about it! Have a wonderful time, and do tell us what you decide to say to Herself! (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:50:13 09/09/07 Sun
        • You are too kind, thanks being able to over look the many flaws in my garbled post. (NT) -- Jane, 20:23:03 09/10/07 Mon
  
  

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• Who is Mr. Bowles? -- Lady Cate, 04:58:23 09/10/07 Mon [2]
  Hello - longtime lurker here. I vaguely remember Mr. Bowles' name from previous reading, but don't remember anything else about him. Why he LJG so afraid of him? What did Bowles do?
  
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  • Mr. Bowles showed up in LJPM- he is a guy who has information on a great many people which he uses to blackmail them. He also had contact with the gentleman who runs Lavender House- Dickie Casewell. I think that John is afraid of him because Mr. Bowls is in a position to blackmail him should he ever come accross information that John has been a visitor to Lavender House. For that matter, I am pretty sure John is afraid that Mr. Bowles already knows, but is storing the information in case he should ever need it. Hence, John is afraid and would like to avoid him at all costs. (NT) -- Oleander, 09:24:06 09/10/07 Mon
  
  

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• Taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade, chapter24, pg 320 "'That,' he added, his tone offhand as he turned to dip the cloth again, 'and that i am proud of you." Alarmed and stirred buy the kiss, deeply embarrassed at the praise- and not a little shocked that Percy did not instinctively perceive the essentual truth of the matter- Grey began to say the obvious: it was his duty." -- Oleander, 18:59:28 09/06/07 Thu [41]
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  • oops...I forgot to look it over before sending, sorry for the weird format. I chose this quote because..well, I guess because I was struck particularly by this aspect of John's attitude. That yes, he does what he does as a duty. And his embarassment at being praised for this is telling- It seems to be that he doesn't just act out of duty, but because he is rather a special man; because he has care for those he is entrusted with. (NT) -- Oleander, 19:03:16 09/06/07 Thu
  • This whole section is food for thought. Percy's looking at Lord John with an expression between awe and revulsion was pretty much my reaction to Lord John. The "essential truth" struck me also. I understand John feeling a duty to his men, but is there more to it? Duty to king? Or is this an echo of Jamie's advice to Roger that there is no such thing as fair fighting, the object is to win and anything goes. And does barley water really help cure eye trouble? (NT) -- Carol P, 19:20:00 09/06/07 Thu
    • I am having a hard time expressing what this evoked for me. I guess I was just moved by LJ. He sees his actions as not being worthy of praise, because he is merely doing his duty. But I think what Percy is trying to get across is that what John does and accomplishes is more than just duty, beyond just the call of service. That John sees nothing admirable in his actions when he is the person who takes care of everyone...struck me. He is so layered.... (NT) -- Oleander, 19:31:48 09/06/07 Thu
      • Whether his actions were admirable or not is not a factor, John just did what he had to do, i.e. he did his duty. The praise was a surprise for him because people normally don't expect praise for acting properly. John didn't actually do anything out of the ordinary for a soldier and an officer, Percy was impressed because he'd never seen a battle. The difference in their reactions is mainly one of experience. (NT) -- Carol P, 12:37:52 09/07/07 Fri
    • Barley water was a popular panacea for all sorts of things--you could either drink it or apply it. It probably didn't rally help, but it wouldn't have hurt either--except for your tastebuds, of course. (NT) -- Susannah, 05:15:11 09/07/07 Fri
  • Oleander, I am so glad to see quotes from Brotherhood, but I I think you need to first post the copyright info when quoting from Herself's books.eg,The following quote is taken from Lord John and the Brotherhood of the Blade, by Diana Gabaldon, chapter___. Copyright© 2007 by Diana Gabaldon. All rights reserved. Then you can follow with the quote (placed in quotation marks). Someone , please correct my copyright info if needed, as I took it from the QOTD instructions given to me from the Books Board. (NT) -- teddie, 05:08:43 09/07/07 Fri
    • Thanks Teddie, I wasna sure, and I was about to double check when my computer freaked out and posted it...LOL. (NT) -- Oleander, 05:56:55 09/07/07 Fri
  • One of the aspects of the book that I really did enjoy was seeing John as a true soldier. It was hard for me to see him as one in the main Books. I enjoyed seeing him ready his regiments, fight in battle, etc. I think this scene shows the vast difference between Percy and John in this regard. It also showed that Percy was the girl. Ha-ha. I've also said to DH, "I'm so proud of you", and he seems baffled somehow at the flattery. (NT) -- Conmama, 05:32:17 09/07/07 Fri
    • Yes, Conmama! His battle scenes are awesome...verra sexy somehow...what a man!!! (NT) -- teddie (), 05:37:18 09/07/07 Fri
    • But Percy calls John, repeatedly "my dear". John has no such endearments for Percy. (NT) -- GwenM, 07:03:53 09/07/07 Fri
      • True, but I saw that as a hesitation to let go completely and trust his relationship with Percy, or his emotions. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:07:01 09/07/07 Fri
  • I love these tender moments between Lord John and Percy, all the sadder when learning that John does indeed love Percy. I have always loved Lord John, but this book brings his character out more than ever. I find myself frequently comparing his character to that of Jamie's...both men of honesty, honor, passion, courage, humor...I am so hosed! (NT) -- teddie, 05:36:08 09/07/07 Fri
    • I agree. I do think Percy was more willing to take emotional risk. I felt like it was John's honour and integrity which kept him from being able to tell or show Percy that he loved him, because he loves Jaime and feels it as a sort of betrayal to himself- or even Hector (before he and Percy have a chance to...hrmph....he asks Hector if he minds). John is so loyal, this must be a burnden for him at times. (NT) -- Oleander, 05:59:06 09/07/07 Fri
      • I was a little surprised when John admits to himself that he wished that he never laid eyes on Jamie, although it is completely understandable, given the circumstances. Jamie is in his heart forever, and yes, his honesty does prevent him from loving another with his whole heart. (NT) -- teddie, 06:13:40 09/07/07 Fri
        • Hasn't there been some time since you met Jamie Fraser, that you wished that, too? In all honesty...there have just been small moments, when he's taken over my life....that I wished it myself. But, like John, it's only a moment or two...at least John is having a real-life relationship with him, even if it's friendship (real-life listen to me, snerk). (NT) -- Conmama, 06:44:37 09/07/07 Fri
          • And yes! there are times when I wish I never knew of Jaime, or Claire or any of them because I am so obsessed! That is why I left the LOL boards in the first place (well that and some terrible stuff going on in my life) a few years ago. But I can't deny you lasses any more than I could Jaime. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:06:02 09/07/07 Fri
        • Yes! This is another layer to add to John's anguish in the stable scene. He cannot love Percy *enough* (something) while his heart is not wholely his, but belongs to Jaime. For Jaime to question his ability to love another man, when it is Johns love for Jaime that is preventing him from entering fully into a relationship with Percy, and all of the consequences of that...poor John! I understand why he would wish not to love Jaime- unrequitted as it is would be one thing, but his life will never be complete with another. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:04:48 09/07/07 Fri
          • I think also it is so difficult for LJ because Jamie is the only one he can talk to about what happened >>>> -- oorjanie, 14:13:27 09/07/07 Fri
    • LOL! We all are Teddy. Sometimes I wonder what is wrong with me that I'm so wrapped up in make-believe. BUT....it is fun! (NT) -- Conmama, 06:01:55 09/07/07 Fri
    • Hi Teddie and Conmama! As you know, I too am smitten by John Grey, and have been since my first time through the 6 main books. But he is a very unique character, and there are plenty of readers, and fellow hosers, who are not as fond of him. This new book was wonderful for giving me a more richly textured sense of John as a man, soldier, brother, son, lover, gentleman, etc. It feels right to learn that he can be brutal, stubborn, even awkward and hapless at times, though clearly his urbane charm and strength of character, and steely will, continue to dominate the picture we get. But I still can't figure out exactly WHY he's such a swoon-worthy character to me, when he shares the stage with Jamie Fraser, is gay, is kind of a snob, and is going to fight against "us" in the war for independence! *G* Perhaps it's just that he is such an unusual romantic hero, with many complex layers, so he's just fascinating to try and figure out... (NT) -- pamelalass, 06:22:24 09/07/07 Fri
      • Meant to say "hi" to Oleander too! Lovely to find another friend to swoon over LJG with! (NT) -- pamelalass, 06:24:24 09/07/07 Fri
        • Hello Pamelalass! *waves* I don't know what it is but...ooh whatta man! I think Jane is onto something, the challenge would be fun. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:09:46 09/07/07 Fri
      • Hi Pamela. I think it could be that just taken as "a man", he's got so many swoon-worthy charateristics that we'd find in any hetero-man. Then there's this little iggly-sense (like Jane said), of the challenge. Even if you couldn't make them come over to the other side, maybe we could confuse them a bit? (NT) -- Conmama, 06:42:13 09/07/07 Fri
        • Yes, I see that. But Jamie's there to swoon over, so it is really quite remarkable how John manages to hold his own in such company! I also think it has something to do with the way he is able to be friends with women. In fact, his relationships with women are a really interesting area to explore, especially since his mother has that "honorary MacKenzie" quality (I loved that idea below - sorry I can't remember who said it!). He respects women, and I think he understands a lot about women. But he's not effeminate; it's not about sharing make-up tips and that kind of silliness. I love how we see him with Tom Byrd in this book, always very concerned about his clothes, but his look is very elegant, severe, and masculine. (NT) -- pamelalass, 06:56:36 09/07/07 Fri
          • I do love how he seems to respect, admire, and enjoy women as well. In Private Matter we see a bit of this when he talks about appreciating women's bodies aesthetically, if not sexually. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:12:29 09/07/07 Fri
          • I think you're on to something there, Pamela. I had to read your post a couple of times. I think when I really started having the flutters for LJ was during his interactions with Bree. She being a modern woman, with a modern woman's sensibilities, way of speaking forthright, educated, is basically...many of us. Lord John is taken with her intellectually and I think he finds her fascinating and refreshing. The way he embraces her is endearing to us, perhaps, because it seems that he would like us and find us fascinating, too. But...in all honesty...the proper manner of his speech is a big turn-on for me. (NT) -- Conmama, 08:09:51 09/07/07 Fri
            • LMAO! I am cracking up Conmama... (NT) -- Oleander, 08:42:04 09/07/07 Fri
              • Is that because I took the words right out of your mouth? LOL! (NT) -- Conmama, 08:46:58 09/07/07 Fri
                • LOL yes! (NT) -- Oleander, 10:08:13 09/07/07 Fri
            • LOL! As Bree says, "I like the way you talk." Yes, it was his time with Bree that put me over the edge too! It gave me as a reader a "place" to fit myself in relation to him -- it's a pretty seductive fantasy in its own right just to think about having a man of his wit, charm, strength, and beauty, focus his attention and affection on making you laugh, helping you figure out your "messy" life, and just generally making it his business to keep you company and let you keep him company! Pretty appealing even without sexual tension. And there are a couple of moments where their banter gets slightly racy - fun but "safe." He makes no deep emotional -- or sexual, obviously -- demands on her. He has decided to love her because she is Jamie's daughter, but then he comes to love her because she's wonderful in her own right. He is simply her friend, and he's a man to be reckoned with. As I said, I find this pretty seductive in spite of the lack of sexual desire between them. (NT) -- pamelalass, 08:54:41 09/07/07 Fri
              • If I had my way, there would be no such lack ;) LOL there is my attempt at bawdy humor. On a more serious note, I totally agree. I will have to go back to DOA and re read the section though, I am a little hazy on the details. (NT) -- Oleander, 10:11:31 09/07/07 Fri
              • Nicely said, Pamela. Maybe the seduction is in friendship with a male? I like men and the way their minds work. But it's really hard to be just friends with a man if there's any kind of sexual tension or attraction. I guess I disagree with Oleander, I like the lack. I can lust after Jamie and have a good friend in John. My life is complete. *g* (NT) -- Carol P, 12:53:15 09/07/07 Fri
                • Yes! Thank you, Carol, for summing it up so well -- I like being friends with men too, and I do find it really appealing when a man wants to be friends with me, thinks I'm funny or interesting, etc. And the kind of "faux-flirting" that goes on can be so much fun, without any of the baggage of sexual attraction, etc. Like Jane said below, I'm thrilled to see who's hanging out here on this lovely "lordly" board! (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:23:05 09/07/07 Fri
              • John's conversation with Bree on the abandoned race track in ABOSAA is classic Diana Gabaldon. Isn't this a great board? I don't imagine the folks who hate John will bother with it, glad you've joined us here Pamela! (NT) -- Jane, 17:22:35 09/07/07 Fri
                • I so agree, Jane! That kind of dialogue is just brilliant, and trademark DG writing. One of my favorite scenes too! You must be counting down to Capitola! *g* (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:35:59 09/07/07 Fri
                  • Counting down to be sure..thankfully my friend Sarah, who's coming with me, is just as crazy as me, but doesn't visit the boards...sigh...wish you were here.... (NT) -- Jane, 20:06:21 09/07/07 Fri
                  • I"m on my reread of ABOSSA right now...I can't wait now to get to that discussion! (NT) -- Conmama, 05:16:40 09/08/07 Sat
  • I fell in love with LJG before I read the Outlander books, I read Private Matter first. I couldn't get enough of him in Voyager. I love that he is a total product of his time .....but he is gay. It is so unusual. On the subject of bawdy; remember when Bree saw him coming out of the slave quarters, I always imagined he was having a fling with the slave who spoke with a Scots accent (the one who ended up on the slave ship at the end of ABOSAA) Then LJG could think of Jamie. (NT) -- Annabel, 13:43:09 09/07/07 Fri
    • This was a whole huge topic at one point on compuserve. I think I even brought it up once. According to DG, there is nothing in the text to suggest who or if he had an affair. All we know is he was "ringing like a bell" when he left. It was our imaginations that made it seem a slave. It could have been anybody or anything (perhaps just a flirtation). (NT) -- Conmama, 05:08:39 09/08/07 Sat
  • Jeez, I dont have anything to add, but certainly enjoy reading your post everyone! (NT) -- M&M, 12:41:35 09/09/07 Sun
  
  

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• Oh temptation, Diana be thy name! LOL I just accidentally found an advance copy of the unreleased JG book on ebay! So hard to resist, spending all of my money! -- Oleander, 12:37:36 09/07/07 Fri [6]
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  • I forgot to mention that of course, out of respect for herself, I shall wait and pay for my book properly like a good girl! (NT) -- Oleander, 12:38:08 09/07/07 Fri
    • My thoughts - it's a collector's item. If I were so inclined *G* I'd certainly buy it to have as a keepsake. Doesn't mean you can't buy a copy of the book. I used to collect stuff like this, but .... I came to the conclusion I'm not a pack rat and need to get RID of stuff. But, really, if I wanted that ARC I'd bid on it. I don't think it's disrespectful. Someone got that copy to read and obviously is going to probably cash in, but ... oh well, I'd still buy it if I wanted it. :D It would be cherished memorabilia to me. (NT) -- Judie, 09:23:26 09/09/07 Sun
    • Colleen bought a arc copy on Ebay and its going to Surrey in October to be signed. *G* I really dont think Diana has a problem with it, its no different than her other copies being sold on ebay. An arc is a bit more special in my opinion. (NT) -- M&M, 12:39:20 09/09/07 Sun
  • the 'hand of devils' one? (NT) -- oorjanie, 13:05:06 09/07/07 Fri
  • ebay is very, very evil. welllll tempting is probably the better word (NT) -- oorjanie, 13:05:47 09/07/07 Fri
  
  

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• I cannot get over how much I loved this story. I am wondering if it would be ok (with you all!) if I posted some excerpts for discussion? -- Oleander, 09:43:55 09/06/07 Thu [27]
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  • Wonderful idea, but I think you'd have to put them on this board, right? (NT) -- Conmama, 09:50:40 09/06/07 Thu
    • yeah i think so...though the way it is going it would just be you and me! LOL (NT) -- Oleander, 10:49:50 09/06/07 Thu
      • I think a lot of people are still reading the book, or digesting it. This board has come to almost a screeching halt since the weekend. (NT) -- Conmama, 10:53:46 09/06/07 Thu
      • and me! i'm excited about that prospect! i'm on 2nd read so that's why i haven't posted in a bit (NT) -- oorjanie, 10:59:29 09/06/07 Thu
        • Oh now, Oorjanie....we know exactly which quote you would have us discuss! *g* (NT) -- Conmama, 05:03:53 09/07/07 Fri
    • forgot to say, i also loved the story..... (NT) -- oorjanie, 11:00:07 09/06/07 Thu
    • I myself would have no problem discussing the book with each and every one of you! (NT) -- teddie, 14:15:32 09/06/07 Thu
  • What was it about the book you loved so much? Getting to know John more, reading more about the John/Jamie relationship? I guess those are my two favorites. I'm a big fan of LJG and have admitted to a sort of bizarre crush on him. Although having gotten to know him better, it has lessened some. (NT) -- Conmama, 10:56:04 09/06/07 Thu
    • I have a totally bizarre crush on him as well. I really loved that we got a much more fleshed out LJ- flaws and all. I was very interested in the John and Jaime interactions, but I loved the book more for John himself. If I can get my internet to work tonight, you all might see a quote up there later! I am about ready to read it a third time...slightly obsessed (NT) -- Oleander, 13:33:17 09/06/07 Thu
    • I also admit to a crush on John...my husband would TOTALLY not get how I could even contemplate wanting to get it on with a gay man, I don't get it myself, but there it is. If he were real and he were willing..... (NT) -- Jane, 16:08:33 09/06/07 Thu
      • oooh yeah.... ;) (NT) -- Oleander, 19:32:48 09/06/07 Thu
        • Double ohhhh yeah! It's because he is honorable, good-looking, needs lots of luvin and we just plain like the way he talks! Right, ladies? (NT) -- Conmama, 05:05:06 09/07/07 Fri
          • There is also that little voice inside your head that says a really good woman (like me bwaa haa haa!) just might change his mind. Please don't be upset with me, I don't think there is anything wrong with gay people that needs to be fixed...I just feel that John is wasted loving someone that can't love him back and wish THAT could be fixed. (NT) -- Jane, 06:04:20 09/07/07 Fri
            • Oh I agree! I think that is part of the whole package, how much I want to just love him to death! (NT) -- Oleander, 07:16:10 09/07/07 Fri
  • Yea, Oleander, go for it. I just finished, and, as usual, my intention to read slowly and carefully was forgotten and I am now reeling. I need time to ponder. It changed the way I see Lord John a lot. He's much more complex than I thought. His acceptance of, and competance at, violent situations was something I hadn't really thought of before. Yes, I knew he was a soldier, but this book described what that really means so well even I could follow it. And reading the scenes with his mother, the Countess, I kept wondering, is she an honorary MacKenzie? I love how DG portrays most of her women as strong, competant, capable, even given the constraints society places on them. Looking forward to good discussions with you folks. (NT) -- Carol P, 19:01:07 09/06/07 Thu
    • Carol, I was sort of reeling with know so much about LJG, especially his pettiness. It bothered me. Now, that I've sat on it for a week, I've decided I love him just the same. Actually, I went to DOA (spoiler alert), and found where he met up with the Frasers on the Ridge (brought Willie). Claire was mad as hell and ask him why he was there. He replies, "I didn't come to seduce your husband". I'm sure we all remember that line. However, what I didn't really catch, or remember, was that he swept him long beautiful eyelashes down dramatically and batted them at her before he said that....so petty! Just one of those things I probably just ignored about him because I was acquiring a crush...but it does show that how he is portrayed in BOTB is not off the mark (at least in this respect). (NT) -- Conmama, 05:08:25 09/07/07 Fri
      • Well - Jamie didn't appreciate John doing and saying that either as he banged his fist on the table. Jamie knew how much that remark probably hurt Claire. (NT) -- GwenM, 09:44:03 09/07/07 Fri
        • I actually love that particular scene. My take on it was that he was mad at John not for it actually hurting Claire (because I don't think that would really hurt her), but because it was just an inappropriate, rude remark and embarrassed Jamie. Now, I've been known to get scenes entirely wrong, so as I said, this was just my take on it. (NT) -- Conmama, 10:46:47 09/07/07 Fri
          • I kind of took it that Jaime was p.o'ed because he didn't like to be reminded of that aspect of his relationship with John...does that make sense? (NT) -- Oleander, 11:19:21 09/07/07 Fri
          • Conmama, I think both you and Oleander have the scene on the Ridge pegged. But I'd not thought John was being petty. I just thought he was nervous about coming unannounced, he had to be worried that Willy might recognize Mac, so he arrived already in a state. Then Claire's glass face tells him exactly what her reaction is, so he was flustered and committed a social faux pas. He was maybe as shocked as Claire and Jamie were that he'd done that. But it's an interesting question. Would you start a new thread and cite a couple of examples from the new book where John struck you as petty? (I'm worried that this is getting far down on the board that others may miss it) (NT) -- Carol P, 13:13:28 09/07/07 Fri
            • You are correct...and Claire was rude to him first. His comment struck me as more of a knee-jerk reaction. And I thoroughly agree with Oleander...Jamie didn't like to be reminded of John's feelings for him...especially stated so explicity. (NT) -- Conmama, 05:06:24 09/08/07 Sat
            • A couple years ago Diana wrote a brilliant message about Jamie, Claire, and John's relationship. I liked it so much that saved the link..here it is if you care to see it. You'll have to paste it into your server, it didn't show up as a link in my preview. http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=50820.3&nav=messages&webtag=ws-books (NT) -- Jane, 09:20:23 09/08/07 Sat
              • Thanks for the link, Jane. DG's explanations dovetailed with what I thought when Claire and Jamie went to the Governor's ball. But her comments on 18thC attitudes were very enlightening; it's so hard sometimes not to project our customs on the past and thus, find the past hard to understand. (NT) -- Carol P, 11:01:10 09/08/07 Sat
          • I agree, Conmama...Jamie was terribly embarrassed by John's improper, irreverent, and inappropriate remark...but I am still glad that John said it, because it reveals his sense of humor AND his comfort level with the company he shared. (NT) -- teddie, 13:29:51 09/07/07 Fri
      • I wonder, now, if Jamie banging the table scared John as much as Jamie hitting the wall just missing John's head in BLADE? It was almost as violent. (NT) -- GwenM, 11:43:55 09/07/07 Fri
  • Discussion is fine, but posting excerpts for discussion probably isn't. Judie has explicit permission from Herself to post quotes for QOTD here at the 'broch--this is a fairly unique situation and one what I know she wouldn't want to abuse. At the very least write Judie before posting any excerpts from any of the books and touch base with her, okay? (NT) -- Lady Jay, 19:46:51 09/07/07 Fri
  
  

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• Wow, this book is really weighing heavy on me today (finished this morning). I really like getting to know LJG much better, but I'm very unsettled with what I know of him somewhat. I'm a big LJG fan, even admit to a bit of crush. Somethings just sort of startled me. For example, after he and Jamie fought, he went outside and had at himself...in full daylight where anybody could watch, including Jamie. Just trying to let the book sink in still. I loved his relationship with Percy. -- Conmama, 11:57:39 09/01/07 Sat [25]
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  • I'd also like to add that I love seeing Jamie and Claire thru other's eyes. Remember the part where LJ is telling Percy about his experience at Prestonpans and he came upon them. I loved it that he heard Claire say something sharp to Jamie, he laughed then responded what he was going to do to her in bed. I wish we could get more glimpses of them together, rather than just from her POV. I know we get a bit from Roger, but I'd love more! (NT) -- Conmama, 12:16:57 09/01/07 Sat
    • I went back and looked at the scene in Dragonfly where LJG first appears. The conversation between Jamie and Claire right before he appears is on the subject of vitamins. Certainly not something that LJG would have understood, let alone remembered years later. I like to think that the conversation LJG is talking about between Jamie and Claire happened just before that. (NT) -- Karen, 13:21:43 09/01/07 Sat
      • Ha-ha! I went to DIA yesterday, also, to find the scene where LJ appears also. They were indeed talking about eating healthy, etc. However, right before then, Murtagh had made a comment to Claire that he set up a tent for her and Jamie so Jamie could take his pleasure with her in privacy. It was not specifically for Claire. That really irritated her and that is what I'm assuming she was walking back to Jamie with a disgruntled look on his face. He laughed (in Brotherhood) and said something about what he would do to her in bed. So....that is what I think the link was. (NT) -- Conmama, 04:52:40 09/02/07 Sun
  • I don't "get" this, either. Why would one feel a need so badly to pleasure themselves in public - in daylight, where, as you said - anyone and everyone could witness it. I, too, would like to hear others' take on this. (NT) -- GwenM, 13:22:32 09/01/07 Sat
    • I don't think that it had anything to do with pleasure, more with a need to somehow release the intensity of emotion that he was feeling - rage, frustration, suppressed lust, and the realization of what he had said, and Jamie's reaction to their words. (NT) -- rose, 15:16:48 09/01/07 Sat
      • I agree with the idea of John's intense need for release. This behavior was so totally out of character for him. I believe it had more to do with the fact that he realised that Jamie had been violated and would never ever view John's preferences with anything other than disgust. Good thing that there is SO MUCH more to John than that aspect of his personality. (NT) -- Jane, 20:23:28 09/01/07 Sat
  • I think that LJ is a bit unbalanced (!) in this scene. Some reasons: His efforts to regain his father's honor, Percy's betrayal and John's involvement as a witness, Geneva's death,, and the general situation of the Dunsanys, and his recovery from his battle wounds. Add in that he is coming to James for help, that he is still totally in lust and love with James, combined with James' expression of disgust with men loving men! It was also completely out of character to inform James exactly how John could make him feel in bed. I guess the culmination for John on that awful day was an uninhibited and desparate self attack for relief. Poor John. (NT) -- teddie, 15:19:34 09/01/07 Sat
    • I saw it as "bragging" about his abilities in bed with other men. To think that he could do to/for Jamie what one woman (Claire) can do for Jamie. Much the same way that BJR brags to Claire what HE could do for Jamie. As if ANY man could do for Jamie what Claire does for him!!!!! (NT) -- GwenM, 15:35:44 09/01/07 Sat
      • John was offended that Jamie didn't believe a man could really love another man. He was hurt and put on the defensive. John then said something he almost instantly regretted, it only made him feel worse when he'd realized that Jamie had first hand experience at being made to feel mastered and unclean. John's realization that he could never unsay what he'd said made him act the way that he did. We all know that Jamie has the grace and understanding to forgive John. (NT) -- Jane, 21:35:48 09/01/07 Sat
        • I didn't catch the part where LJ realized Jamie had been mastered (raped). WHere is that in the book? (NT) -- Conmama, 04:55:23 09/02/07 Sun
          • I don't think it is in the book. Personally I don't think LJG could have guessed the reason for Jamie's reacting so strongly. It's enough that he *did* react that way, with a violent, almost murderous rage that will certainly keep LJG from making such remarks to him again. I do agree that LJG probably wishes the words could be unsaid. (NT) -- Karen, 05:12:32 09/02/07 Sun
          • It is in the book. Page 451. "Oh Christ, oh Christ. Someone had." (NT) -- GwenM, 05:59:41 09/02/07 Sun
            • You're right. I see it now. Very subtle, but it's there if you know what to look for. (NT) -- Karen, 06:51:05 09/02/07 Sun
            • Yes, I see it. I read that twice (before) and thought it meant something else! Duh. Now, the reason for his overwhelming feelings at that moment make sense, but still....M was quite shocking! (NT) -- Conmama, 07:57:46 09/02/07 Sun
    • when i was reading it i was thinking how in many situations you do something without thinking or something you wish you hadn't afterwards but certainly 'in the moment' it was all he could think to do. i think with the frame of mind he was in at this point, he really was not thinking about who might see him. (NT) -- oorjanie, 14:12:52 09/02/07 Sun
  • Lord John is a feisty wee thing isn't he? (NT) -- teddie, 17:53:44 09/01/07 Sat
    • isn't he just! it was so insightful getting to see him the way we did in this book! (NT) -- oorjanie, 14:13:46 09/02/07 Sun
  • I would really like to know what Herself had in mind when she wrote this scene, I thought it was strange too. I hope that there is something we don't know yet that explains it. Does anyone know if there are plans to write more LJG books (after the short stories book comes out)or am I just going to have to wait until Book 7 to get my fix. (NT) -- Annabel, 19:25:29 09/01/07 Sat
    • Supposedly available in November there will be a trilogy of stories. Two are previously released stories Lord John and the Hell-fire Club, Lord John and the Succubus, and a new one Lord John and the Haunted Soldier. There will be another new one she hasn't started yet. To be titled Lord John and the Scottish Prisoner. (NT) -- Jane, 20:16:41 09/01/07 Sat
      • "Scottish Prisoner" is supposed to be book-length, like "Brotherhood", isn't it? I wonder if it's intended as a way to explain how LJG's relationship with Jamie was re-established following the events of "Brotherhood", and how they grew to become friends. Just speculation on my part, but I think the way the relationship is left hanging at the end of "Brotherhood", it really needs to be explored in further detail. (NT) -- Karen, 05:01:28 09/02/07 Sun
  • On the 'Oh God Someone had' I took not as John realizing that someone had raped Jamie because remember, in Drums John clearly has no idea why Jamie reacts towards him the way he does because he jokingly said to Bree something like 'what does she [Claire] think I am going to do? Hold him down and force mysefl on him' I took the comment as LJG remembering where he heard it (I could make you scream) before which is what sparked my theory that LJG was, if not raped at least had some experience with BJR. I really don't think John has any idea what happend to Jamie. I think that will be a big confessional scene in a future Outlander book. Try rereading the scene and see if you pick up on what I got out of it. (NT) -- Annabel, 08:01:19 09/02/07 Sun
    • Well - that's why Diana writes as she does - to keep us wondering what is/was meant. But here - I definitely believe it was John's awareness that someone had - mastered Jamie with rape. (NT) -- GwenM, 10:18:25 09/02/07 Sun
    • I too reread this sentence a few times because I thought it was very ambiguous in it's meaning. I must admit that I thought he was just thinking that Yes, some demon had put those words in his head, but when I do go back & read it now , with the new insights I have just read here, I can definately see a sense of realisation in LJG's thinking, that someone had made J scream. So good to hear other people's take on things, it adds another dimension that otherwise would have been missed. (NT) -- JulieW, 17:32:09 09/02/07 Sun
    • John was raped; he related the story in Succubus. He wasn't sure who did it, though. (NT) -- sharon fisher, 10:50:59 09/08/07 Sat
  
  

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• in case anyone is thinking of getting the audio (ie. me) i saw it's on sale at amazon.ca & amazon.com so it's alot cheaper than recorded books. linkie inside >>>> -- oorjanie, 11:13:21 09/07/07 Fri [6]
  http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Brotherhood-Blade-Diana-Gabaldon/dp/1428156798/ref=sr_1_1/002-7525190-3147235?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189188717&sr=8-1
  

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  • ok so not inside..... (NT) -- oorjanie, 11:13:55 09/07/07 Fri
  • I;ve never done audio book, but have thought of it...it is a great price. I am totally broke right now, or I'd hop on! (NT) -- Oleander, 11:20:55 09/07/07 Fri
  • If you buy from Amazon PLEASE use Judie's link to get there so she gets the kickback. She is the hard working wonderful host of these boards, there is no cost to you, Amazon pays her tiny commision out of their profits. It is our little way of thanking Judie for all the HARD work she does creating and maintaining boards like this one. (NT) -- Jane, 15:22:04 09/07/07 Fri
    • Thanks for the reminder Jane. You can find the Amazon link on the LOL Home Page, left had side. (NT) -- Carol P, 18:04:52 09/07/07 Fri
      • Thank YOU Carol, it wasn't very helpful of me to suggest using the links but NOT remember to tell folks how to find them. (NT) -- Jane, 20:07:46 09/07/07 Fri
  
  

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• I just started this book, and already I'm lost. What on earth is wrong with being "gracious"? Is there some meaning there that I just have never come across before? -- Susannah, 09:28:47 09/05/07 Wed [21]
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  • It wasn't that he said "gracious", it's that he said "your grace". Ashamedly, I'm totally lost with the titles. I still don't understand why Hal and John are both referred to as Lord. And can an Earl also be a Duke? The whole thing is still confusing me! Please someone...hold my hand and walk me t hru it. I don't even care if you're rolling your eyes in exasperation. I'm too embarrassed to ask Herself. (NT) -- Conmama, 09:41:52 09/05/07 Wed
    • So is Hal an earl or a duke? Your Grace is correct for a duke, who would be Lord Whatever, and Lord-first-name would be correct for the younger brother. (NT) -- Susannah, 10:11:14 09/05/07 Wed
      • I believe Hal's father was the Earl of Melton, Duke of Pardloe. Is that correct? So, you are saying that now that Hal is the Duke, he is addressed as Your Grace AND Lord Melton? And that it is also correct for John to be addressed as Lord John (because he's the younger son of a duke). so confused. (NT) -- Conmama, 11:16:31 09/05/07 Wed
      • Also, my take on it was that he didn't like being addressed as "your grace" because of the taint of his father's supposed suicide. He was turning his back on the titles or something like that. (NT) -- Conmama, 11:20:31 09/05/07 Wed
        • Right. He is a duke (thus entitled to be addressed as "Your Grace") but he refuses to use the title because of his father's disgrace. (NT) -- Karen, 11:44:08 09/05/07 Wed
          • Back in the day, men could hold more than one title - Duke, Earl, blah blah. Because the title Duke of Pardloe is tainted in Hal's eyes, he has refused it, and goes by his next highest title, the Earl of Melton. If John felt as Hal did about the whole thing, he would renounce his title as the younger heir of a duke, becoming the Honourable John Grey. He, however, refuses to renounce his title as the younger son of a Duke and keeps Lord John. Did that make sense? (NT) -- Oleander, 13:04:38 09/05/07 Wed
            • Yes, crystal clear...THANK YOU so much! (NT) -- Conmama, 15:44:06 09/05/07 Wed
              • Well, on second thought, I'm backpedaling. I'm clear as to why they both call themselves "Lord". However, if he is dismissive of using "your grace" title, why isn't he dismissive of the "lord" title, also? They both belonged to his father. (NT) -- Conmama, 06:11:28 09/06/07 Thu
                • The Duke of Pardloe title belonged specifically to his father, because it was given to him by George I. I think the Earl of Melton title was an older family title that had been passed down for generations, but didn't belong specifically to Gerard Grey. (NT) -- maddiej, 11:42:51 09/06/07 Thu
                  • Ahhh...even clearer now. Thanks. (NT) -- Conmama, 05:09:31 09/07/07 Fri
  • If you scroll down quite aways on this page you will find this question addressed. Someone said that Royals often hold more than one title and are just known by their most important. The example given is that Prince Charles is Prince of Wales but also Duke of Rothesay and Lord of the Ilses........who knew? I guess it was a message that Hal sent to others that he would not use his title of Duke until his Father's name was cleared. (NT) -- CherylR, 14:52:33 09/05/07 Wed
    • Thanks...but see my question above. Do you know why he would continue to use the title for an Earl, then? Why an Earl and not a Duke? (NT) -- Conmama, 06:12:41 09/06/07 Thu
      • Because the top most title a man possesses is his own. So even if his father was also an earl, foremost he was a Duke, and the name the Duke of Pardloe is what has been tainted by the suicide. (NT) -- Oleander, 06:19:10 09/06/07 Thu
        • Ahh.....now I understand. Thanks. So, do you think there was friction between Hal and John because John wouldn't then just refer to himself as "honorable"? (NT) -- Conmama, 07:58:43 09/06/07 Thu
          • I don't know, really. Reading the second time, I made sure to pay careful attention. I think most people in their lives chalked it all up to equal amounts of stubborness. Knowing what Grey knew- that his father was murdered, it makes perfect sense that he would not accept his father's name as stained...oh going long--> -- Oleander, 09:36:46 09/06/07 Thu
            • On second though, as CherylR said, maybe Grey accepted this from Hal because he understood Hal's need to have their father's name cleared before he used the name, a sort of reclaiming? (NT) -- Oleander, 09:38:06 09/06/07 Thu
            • I think he *does* feel anger and resentment toward Hal, because Hal shoved him off to Aberdeen and would never talk about the whole affair. (NT) -- maddiej, 11:44:50 09/06/07 Thu
              • agreed. But does he also resent Hal's stubborn refusal to keep his fathers name? (NT) -- Oleander, 13:39:44 09/06/07 Thu
                • Yes, I think he thinks it's ridiculous...or at least that's the impression I came away with. (NT) -- Conmama, 05:34:00 09/07/07 Fri
                • They seem to sort of mutually respect (and maybe even admire) each other's stubborness, even if they're mutually opposed. (NT) -- maddiej, 12:27:25 09/07/07 Fri
  
  

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• Lord John's now infamous stable scene -- JulieW, 01:25:11 09/03/07 Mon [25]
  I have just been over to Compuserve & Diana has written an excellent explanation of this scene involving John & Jamie.It explains a lot! It is in the "Lord John, spoilers" thread. I will try to do a link.
  http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=57057.48&nav=messages&webtag=ws-books
  

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  • PS: The message is truncated so you will have to expand it to get the last few lines. (NT) -- JulieW, 01:27:19 09/03/07 Mon
  • It's a wonderful explanation, cleared several things up and was just about as enjoyable to read as the actual scene. (NT) -- Conmama, 06:08:39 09/03/07 Mon
    • WOW, thank you Conmama for asking the question. Thank you Julie for sharing it with us. Totally AWESOME response and confirms what I thought about the encounter. I hate to sound like I am gushing but since we are all fans here, isn't amazing that even her emails are emotionally powerful? (NT) -- Jane, 07:04:21 09/03/07 Mon
      • I'm constantly amazed at Diana's responsiveness to questions. Particularly now when she's on the road with the book tour and has very little time, it's wonderful that she took the time to respond in such detail and with such thoughtfulness. She really *listens* to her fans. (NT) -- Karen, 07:29:27 09/03/07 Mon
        • I do think that it was very nice of her to take the time to write what she did for her fans. It delved more into their minds and hearts. It was a treat to read and thoughtful, indeed! And.....she didn't make me feel like a complete fool with the "for his pleasure" comment either. (NT) -- Conmama, 08:10:55 09/03/07 Mon
          • Congrats, Conmama! It was a valid question and elicited a fascinating response. Thank you, on behalf of all of us. (NT) -- CatherineM., 09:38:01 09/03/07 Mon
            • Thanks, but actually I didn't ask a question. I just made a comment and she was inquiring about what I thought was shocking. I do have to say, her explanation and the novel itself as opened all sorts of doors to wonderful conversations. For instance...John was insulted because Jamie refered to pedophila. However, Jamie asked him if his step-brother was a catamite and John answered "Yes, he was my lover". Well, I had to look up what a catamite was and it is a man-boy sexual relationship. So, John did answer yes to that question, perhaps not knowing the full meaning of the word, and that set Jamie off even more. (NT) -- Conmama, 11:10:20 09/03/07 Mon
              • Yes, I had an idea what Catamite is, and had to go check google. And everything I read was man-boy s*xual. Diana couldn't have made a mistake such as this. She meant man-boy. (NT) -- GwenM, 09:02:26 09/04/07 Tue
                • Hi Gwen. I'm a little confused with your post. Did you think I was infering that Diana didn't know the full meaning of the word catamite? I guess what I was actually getting at is that Lord John must not have know the full meaning because he answered "yes" to Jamie. (NT) -- conmama, 09:39:39 09/04/07 Tue
                  • No - I'm SURE Diana knew/knows what catamite meant/means - so it wasn't a misuse of a word on her part. I guess it's possible that John did not know it meant men-boy sex. (NT) -- GwenM, 10:22:46 09/04/07 Tue
                  • Now I didn't get the meaning of your question to ME. No, I wasn't meaning that you said Diana didn't know what it meant. (NT) -- GwenM, 10:25:45 09/04/07 Tue
                    • LOL! I think we're on the same page. I guess the whole misunderstanding of the word by John just helped to fuel the rest of the conversation! (NT) -- Conmama, 10:49:45 09/04/07 Tue
      • I am on read #2 now (slower and much more carefully!) and I am amazed and awed by herself's ability to put so much into so little. Two scenes between Percy and John really stood out to me- the one where John finds Percy with the German boy and his reaction(counting the steps), and in the cell when Percy is asking John for kindness, at the very least- I cried reading these scenes, I could feel how torn John must have been. Reading these with the scene with Jaime, now, is so much more powerful and less shocking! (NT) -- Oleander, 18:53:08 09/04/07 Tue
  • I have to say that this scene brings to mind the moment in the film Brokeback Mountain, where Jack and Ennis go their separate ways after leaving the mountian for the first time. Ennis(Heath Ledger) can only respond in a visceral manner--gut wrneching cramps, and puking. A physical response based on intense emotions (Please do not throw tomatoes at me, Ladies.) (NT) -- teddie, 09:22:52 09/03/07 Mon
    • No tomatoes Teddie, in fact that is exactly the sort image that came to mind when I pictured John blindly stumbling out behind the barn. (NT) -- Jane, 09:40:27 09/03/07 Mon
      • I've already started a re-read....I need to re-absorb the whole thing, and I look forward to it. (NT) -- teddie, 09:54:35 09/03/07 Mon
      • Ok I read Diana's explanation, pretty much as I had understood it. I may be alone in this, but puking would be the response I would imagine... I can't make the leap to masturbation as a respose. help (NT) -- tatiana, 07:10:01 09/07/07 Fri
    • Yes, thanks for the comparison. It is the same sort of thing. (NT) -- Conmama, 11:12:29 09/03/07 Mon
  • that was interesting and insightful. thanks for the 'heads up.' i remember i was on compuserve when that had yet to be answered. on another note, can someone remind me (i know i should know) of Lord John's age here? i know that LJ asks Percy his age. i'm interested in the age difference. thanks (NT) -- oorjanie, 10:34:34 09/03/07 Mon
    • Well, if LJ was 16 at Prestonpans in late 1745, that would mean he was born in the summer of 1729 (eight years younger than Jamie). So, I think he would have been 28 years old at the time the story opens, in Jan 1758. (NT) -- Karen, 10:39:26 09/03/07 Mon
      • thanks for the quick reply (NT) -- oorjanie, 10:47:35 09/03/07 Mon
  • Wow, I stand corrected on a number of things but I still don't see how LJG's behavior in the Outlander books jibes with what Herself said about John realizing that Jamie had been raped. Nothing he says in DOA or anywhere else implies to me that he knows Something happened. But as she said, I guess I have to wait for Scottish Prisoner. I still think it would have been great if LJG and BJR's paths had crossed. (NT) -- Annabel, 18:46:19 09/04/07 Tue
    • I am guessing that, the fact that the new LJG book was written many years after DG wrote DOA etc that some of the things she includes in the later books may not be exactly what she had in mind when she wrote the first books. Continuity must be an extremely hard thing to accomplish, given the intracasies & timespan of these novels. DG does a wonderful job at tieing things together throughout the books, but, alas, she is only human. I am thinking that maybe Lord John has only just let her know that HE knew about Jamie's rape when she was writing Brotherhood? Either way, I am eagerly awaiting "The Scottish prisoner", for all the juicy details of those Helwater years and the development of their friendship. (NT) -- JulieW, 19:30:44 09/04/07 Tue
      • You said that so much more eloquently than I could, but I was thinking the same thing. It's just that we are into the details of these books so much that the discrepancies glare back at us. Like you said...with LG and the Scottish Prisoner, she will be able to "rewrite" what wasn't know when she originally wrote the earlier Outlander books. (NT) -- Conmama, 05:15:44 09/05/07 Wed
  
  

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• ok, I am not doubting herself, but I am troubled. It seems in this book that LJG is very close to the Dunsany family- he seems pretty torn up when Geneva dies. But in Voyager, when he brings Jaime to Helwater, he states that be barely remembered her- she couldn't have lived more than two years after LJG brough Jaime- enough time to become seriously attached to her? And how does LJG end up marrying Isobel- he clearly states that since Hal has provided the future generations he won't be obligated to marry and all that.... -- Oleander, 19:05:21 09/03/07 Mon [16]
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  • Hi, Oleander. I'll respond to your question about John marrying Isobel.Since Lord John is so in love with James, and has the awareness that Willie is James' son, I believe he marries Isobel in order to protect and care for Willie, and probably establish a conscious or subconscious way of being connected to James. (NT) -- teddie, 06:03:50 09/04/07 Tue
  • Re: Geneva...Lord John has always been very close to the Dunsany family, mostly because of their son Gordon, who died at Culloden..so it was with great sympathy that John comes to Helwater for Geneva's funeral. I've never had the feeling that he was seriously attached to Geneva, but he was to the Dunsany family, who I am sure kept him apprised of Geneva's excellence as a horsewoman, fiery personality, etc. (NT) -- teddie (), 06:15:22 09/04/07 Tue
  • I think Lord John explained his reasoning pretty well in Voyager when he told Claire the story of the time he'd informed Jamie he was going to marry Isobel. (Page 931 in the paperback). Not just for Willie's sake but to help out Dunsany who was growing too old to run the estate. John didn't feel the two women could do it alone. He argued that there was a lot more to marriage than "carnal love". He did have affectionate feelings for Isobel and her family, they were well suited for each other socially, he had "proved his capacity" to make her an adequate husband. I thought it was pretty obvious that she worshiped him and would have been pleased to be his wife in any case. Of course, looking out for Willie and establishing a permanent link with Jamie might have been his true goal, but I don't think he hadn't thought through the moral and emotional obligations he'd have as Isobel's husband. (NT) -- Jane, 06:16:59 09/04/07 Tue
    • Yes, Jane, I agree. John is a gentleman and a decent person and provided an excellent way to help the Dunsany family (and himself, somewhere deep down) by marrying Isobel. (NT) -- teddie (), 06:21:02 09/04/07 Tue
    • But do you not think Isobeal was "cheated" by having just an "adequate" husband. What IS "adequate"? Of course, I am interjecting my own feelings into this. We all do - based on our own experiences. An "adequate" husband would not be enough for me. (NT) -- GwenM, 08:58:50 09/04/07 Tue
      • I don't think Isobel was cheated at all. Most marriages of the time were of convenience and business; not so frequently for love. Isobel made what would be considered a prudent match with Lord John, and Geneva's marriage to Ellesmere--definitely not for love, either. (NT) -- teddie, 09:35:48 09/04/07 Tue
        • John was at least handsome and not SO much older than she was. I had the feeling that Isobel was in awe of him, perhaps even had a bit of a girlish crush. After all what would she know of sex? Women back then weren't expecting to enjoy it, pretty thought of it as "just doing their duty". The fact that he was sincere and thoughtful and above all a gentleman made her a very lucky woman indeed. Back then an adoring partner was a very rare thing. (NT) -- Jane, 15:34:33 09/04/07 Tue
          • You know...I'm not sure_I_ wouldn't take him, knowing what he is! I think he's wonderful, really. (NT) -- Conmama, 09:43:20 09/05/07 Wed
            • LMAO! I agree! I have a crush on him, regardless....sigh. (NT) -- Oleander, 14:48:34 09/05/07 Wed
      • Yes, I think Isobel was cheated ONLY if she went into the marriage unaware. Every decent person deserves a partner that adores them in all aspects. (NT) -- Conmama, 09:37:06 09/04/07 Tue
      • Isobel was 15 when Jamie came to Helwater - so, at her marriage to John she was 21 or so. Why wasn't she already married?? 21 is sort of old for those days. (NT) -- GwenM, 10:15:25 09/04/07 Tue
      • Oh, Gwen, Lord John has money, a good position and he surely wouldn't beat her. That's the definition of a good husband, no? (NT) -- Carol P, 10:34:13 09/06/07 Thu
        • Weeeel - maybe for those 18th century English women. Certainly not for us 21st century American women. (NT) -- GwenM, 04:50:34 09/07/07 Fri
  • regarding geneva, i think above people have explained it well but also i think when someone passes away you are more aware of them and thinking back to what you remember most passionately about them in their life. probably when she was alive he thought of her as 'part of the dunsany family' and she was there in the back of his mind but then when she dies it is brought more to the forefront (NT) -- oorjanie, 07:29:19 09/04/07 Tue
    • thanks for the responses ladies! I think I was on pretty much the same page re: Isobel- I just would love to read how it all transpired...LOL I am impatient, I love LGJ, I want to know it all! As far as Geneva goes, I guess I just got different impressions from the two books- regardless, it is what it is, as herself wishes it to be! (NT) -- Oleander, 18:49:09 09/04/07 Tue
  
  

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• Just finished Brotherhood, and I'm ready to re-read it again soon. As usual, I burned through it , even though I swore that I would not. A few thoughts: I am very pleased with the opportunity to delve into into Hal's personality, and especially that of their mother, Benedicta. (shades of Auntie Jocasta, but with more heart?). Lord John's toughness, courage and sense of familial honor is beautifully portrayed, along with his feisty side in bedscenes with Percy. I also very much like the details of a gentleman's life in his time. Interestingly, his last visit with James at first puts them at even greater opposite poles than ever, but Jamie does help him in the end. I believe that that particular encounter will be the beginning of an actual friendship between them. -- teddie, 18:45:33 09/01/07 Sat [14]
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  • Your absolutely right Teddie, one of the very best things about this book is getting to know his mother, brother, and his delightful sister in law Minnie better. Even Olivia and Harry Quarry were more likable in this book than they were in Private Matter. I found it hysterical that Harry Quarry was the "sub-genius" who wrote the erotic verses John was asked to deliver to Diderot. (NT) -- Jane, 21:04:09 09/01/07 Sat
  • I agree Teddie. I think she did a magnificent job of writing the love scenes between John and Percy...I enjoyed John's fiesty side, as well, especially when he was naming the 3 things of something...I can't recall and what he said with the third one! Hilarious. It was a great read, and I"m ready to reread again, also. I know I missed alot the first time thru. (NT) -- Conmama, 07:55:30 09/02/07 Sun
  • i must admit i did the same as you teddie. i just finished it. it was such a superb book i thought. i will be re-reading it shortly also to take everything in. (NT) -- oorjanie, 13:33:08 09/02/07 Sun
    • I had a big smile on my face when I came upon you at the brothel, janie. And such an industrious whore, too, lol... (NT) -- teddie, 14:24:20 09/02/07 Sun
      • mwahhaha. i enjoyed it also. even though i knew it was in there it was so cool to come to that part when i was reading. hehe (NT) -- oorjanie, 15:16:23 09/02/07 Sun
  • does anyone know if the audio book is out yet or when it will be? (NT) -- oorjanie, 15:17:01 09/02/07 Sun
    • Janie, it's already at Recorded Books; the unabridged cd set was listed at $39.99..... (NT) -- teddie, 15:30:30 09/02/07 Sun
      • oh thank you for the info! (NT) -- oorjanie, 17:02:00 09/02/07 Sun
        • No problem, Janie. Now I am headed over to e-books to download Brotherhood to my Palm...this is where all my Outlander books are. I'll use it for the reread; it has great capability for highlighting passages, taking notes and bookmarking, which I like to do, hoser that I am. That makes it very handy when compiling QOTD passages, too. (NT) -- teddie (), 18:02:47 09/02/07 Sun
          • oh yes, i wonder when we can start using passages from it for QOTD. i presume once it's on the main boards, not with it's 'own board.' dh was trying to tell me i have to wait for the 'audio' version until it's released on itunes. i said nooooo that'll take too long (NT) -- oorjanie, 19:10:23 09/02/07 Sun
  • Help, dear LoL! Does LJATBOTB have spoilers for anyone who has not finished the Outlander Series? Can someone who has not read ABOSAA read these without spoiling that book? (NT) -- Kris, 13:43:54 09/04/07 Tue
    • Well, I think you should read ABOSAA first. The timing of this book is way back during the brief parts in Voyager where Jamie was at Hellwater, so there aren't any spoilers per say. I just can't imagine choosing this book over ABOSAA. Just my not so humble opinion, if I was wondering the same thing, I'd have wanted someone to tell me to finish up all the available books in the Outlander saga before moving on the the LJ books (as wonderful as they might be). (NT) -- Jane, 15:41:37 09/04/07 Tue
      • Oh, no, Jane. The person inquiring is defintely going to read ABOSAA but was also interested in LJG. She just didn't want to spoil anything for ABOSAA. Thanks for answering. (NT) -- Kris, 17:56:40 09/04/07 Tue
  
  

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• Page 278. How did John know that Jamie wrote secretly to his family in the Highlands?? And if John knew THAT, did he also know that his family wrote back to Jamie?? And just how did John KNOW that?? If "yes" to both - did "they" also read/intercept those letters? -- GwenM, 12:27:17 08/31/07 Fri [5]
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  • Good point. We know from Voyager that Geneva intercepted at least one letter intended for Jamie, but how would Lord John know about that? (NT) -- Karen, 13:40:59 08/31/07 Fri
    • Exactly - why would THIS particular letter just be on Lord Dunsany's desk in plain view. I suspect Lord Dunsany had ALREADY READ this letter and perhaps keeping it to show/give to John. Something smells here. (NT) -- GwenM, 13:51:40 08/31/07 Fri
  • Don't you think Geneva would have told her mother about what happened and how it came about when her mother was staying with her prior to William's birth? It must have been obvious to Lady Dunsany that the Earl wasn't happy about the baby and something was definitely up. I've always felt that Geneva's Mom knew for sure about Jamie (but wasn't telling anyone any specifics except maybe Dunsany himself he was awfully upset about allowing Geneva so much freedom with her groom after all) She might have mentioned letters going back and forth between Jamie and his family to her husband and Dunsany might have mentioned them to John. (NT) -- Jane, 21:15:18 09/01/07 Sat
  • diana's now answered this i think on compuserve >>>>> -- oorjanie, 11:12:54 09/04/07 Tue
  
  

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• OK I have a question and I'd like to hear some opinions. What have we learned about Jamie from his appearances in this book? Anything new or surprising? While I was not surprised by his 'penance' for Geneva's death, I was surprised by the tone and language of his final conversation with Lord John. Any thoughts? -- Caroline B, 10:16:40 08/30/07 Thu [11]
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  • Considering what happens in that last scene where Jamie and Lord John are together, I find it very hard to imagine that they will ever become friends, let alone close friends. Yet we know it will happen, and within a relatively short period of time. I found the scenes with Jamie fascinating, sometimes heartbreaking, as at Geneva's funeral where we see him struggling to contain his grief (this scene actually brought tears to my eyes, thinking of how he's grieving for Claire). His comment to Lord John that "My life is not my own" reminded me strongly of his advice to Fergus in ABOSAA, "For their sake you must continue, even though you would not, for your own." Somehow he has found the strength inside himself to keep on living, but you get the sense that he is only existing, day to day. "Half a person", indeed. (NT) -- Karen, 13:52:56 08/30/07 Thu
  • Does anyone know if Jamie makes an apperance in the next LJG book with the short stories? Maybe there will be a scene that shows how they became able to talk again. I agree that it is hard to envision it after that. (NT) -- Annabel, 17:01:00 08/30/07 Thu
    • I've heard that Lord John and the Scottish Prisoner will focus on the years at Hellwater after BOB. (NT) -- Jane, 20:42:41 09/01/07 Sat
      • I asked specifically about this on the Compuserve board and she confirmed that "Scottish Prisoner" is indeed intended to answer some of these questions about how Jamie and LJG grow to become friends. But it will be a while before we see it -- not until after Book 7, the graphic novel, etc. (NT) -- Karen, 08:08:51 09/03/07 Mon
    • The new short story in the trilogy; Lord John and the Haunted Soldier will be mostly centered around John's military trail where he is brought up on charges surrounding the cannon explosion in Germany. I can't tell you more here. I can only tell you this much because it is common knowledge. If you ask on the excerpt board, I could tell you what I know OR simply point you to the excerpts from Haunted Soldier that are there. (NT) -- Jane, 07:39:19 09/03/07 Mon
  • Yes, I completely agree. I really want to know how Jamie and LJG thaw out their relationship. Or have we perhaps read of this already? When Jamie tentatively begins talking of chess to John one time at Helwater? (NT) -- Caroline B, 05:25:43 08/31/07 Fri
    • That is a possibility but I don't see how you go from 'I could make you scream' to 'knight to king's pawn' (NT) -- Annabel, 05:55:21 08/31/07 Fri
      • It is after that scene that Jamie brings John the note with the clue that leads him to seek out the Irishman. That clue eventually helps John find the truth about his father and clears his family name. Jamie is an honorable man and has the grace to forgive. He knows that John is also an honorable man who just said the wrong thing. I myself will admit to occasionally saying or writing something that unintentionally hurts someone and wishing I hadn't said it the very second I did. (NT) -- Jane, 08:15:34 09/02/07 Sun
        • That's the starting point, I agree -- the point from which they begin to rebuild their relationship. What I want to know is, how/when/why do they begin to feel comfortable in one another's presence, able to speak together as friends? Is it their shared concern for Willie that brings them together, finally, as friends? And if so, how? I would love to see how this plays out. (NT) -- Karen, 10:13:46 09/02/07 Sun
  • Ha! Fair point! (NT) -- Caroline B, 07:04:37 08/31/07 Fri
  
  

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• I posted this last night but I got deleted: I was thinking about what Lord John had said to Jamie how he would make him scream, and then I think it was implied that LJG had picked up that frase from the guy who had raped him and I said to myself 'Gee, that sounds like something Jack Randell would say.... Oh my God!!! what if it was BJR who raped LJG' Any takers?? -- Annabel, 16:56:46 08/30/07 Thu [10]
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  • More importantly - what did you think about John telling Jamie that he would/could make him scream? I saw it as bragging??? (NT) -- GwenM, 20:04:25 08/30/07 Thu
  • Well, did you notice how agressive LJG was in bed? I liked that, how he told Percy that he was a beast and later when Percy was washing his face how he just 'took' him. I think our John has a lot of confidence in his prowess. I think it was a more reptilian desire to master Jamie (and we know that LJG saw 'it' as a form of domination because he didn't like to have 'it' done to him), remember, it was brought on by Jamie saying LJG would never master him. My thought is that it connects back to the whole rape by BJR, BJR mastered LJG and now LJG wanted to master Jamie and so he started acting like BJR. (NT) -- Annabel, 05:53:05 08/31/07 Fri
    • Really?? Where do we find out that BJR raped John?? (NT) -- GwenM, 08:42:59 08/31/07 Fri
      • No, that is my theory, see above, not a fact. (NT) -- Annabel, 10:04:26 08/31/07 Fri
        • I was hoping someone else would mention this but since nobody has. John was just 16 when he joined his brother with the army just before Preston. BJR had already been "unmanned" at this point. Now, a true sick pervert like Jack could have used any number of objects to penetrate a victim, but I don't think given the times, John would have considered penetration with an object as rape. (NT) -- Jane (blushing furiously), 07:11:51 09/03/07 Mon
  • I don't think there's any evidence at all that Lord John ever even met Jack Randall, let alone was raped by him. There's a brief description of the rape, in "Succubus," and it doesn't appear that anything was said, let alone something like that, and no indication whatever of the person involved. I just don't see this at all, I'm afraid. (NT) -- MsNaugha, 10:41:28 08/31/07 Fri
    • ok, it has been a while, or i am totally dense. But where is Succubus is this description? I am going to have to look that one up.. (NT) -- Oleander, 13:08:15 08/31/07 Fri
  • I read this scene twice because I'm confused. There was alot of rage going on between those two men at that point. When I first read it, I thought LJG meant that he would make Jamie scream "in pain", but now I wonder if he meant he would master him and make him scream "in ecstacy". What do you think? (NT) -- Conmama, 11:55:04 09/01/07 Sat
    • I read it that he would make Jamie scream in pleasure. And, of course, master him through pleasure and desire. (NT) -- GwenM, 13:19:18 09/01/07 Sat
  
  

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• ok i've only just got past chapter 25 so haven't read other messages but anyways >>>>>>> -- oorjanie, 19:45:15 08/31/07 Fri [15]
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  • inside >>>> -- oorjanie, 19:46:26 08/31/07 Fri
    • Chap. 25 did NOT shock me - nothing about John or Percy surprised me and I half expected this to happen. (NT) -- GwenM, 20:54:16 08/31/07 Fri
      • I was horrified that John wasn't alone when he opened that door. It might have hurt to see Percy with someone else but it wouldn't have turned into the life and death situation it ended up because of the "witnesses". I was glad that Jamie convinced John to take the risk and do the right thing. I would have been horribly disappointed in John if he hadn't done something. Even if he didn't "love" Percy, he had feelings for him, AND for his father. It would have been dishonorable in the extreme to allow Percy to be executed, even worse if John's testimony had sealed his conviction. (NT) -- Jane, 20:33:18 09/01/07 Sat
    • I was shocked too, not expecting what was behind the door at all! What I was not surprised about was the betrayal of John...I had a feeling it would come eventually, but I still wasn't ready for it. I think that, sadly, Lord John will never find real happiness with a mate...Hmmm, maybe if he could TT into the more liberalized future, well....... (NT) -- teddie, 00:10:25 09/01/07 Sat
      • I was shocked too. I didn't see that coming at all. The image of the doorknob is very powerful, the way he notices every detail of it, as you do when something happens that you will remember all your life. (NT) -- Karen, 01:04:16 09/01/07 Sat
        • yes such a powerful image for sure. (NT) -- oorjanie, 07:54:27 09/01/07 Sat
          • Loved how DG re-used that imagery later at another important point in the story (when John met his mother and she nearly shot him ). "He set his hand on the doorknob, it was white china, painted with roses, and a pang went through him at the cool slick touch of it on his hand, but there was not time to think of that now." God, I LOVE how that woman writes! (NT) -- Jane, 20:54:58 09/01/07 Sat
            • yes, me too. it is incredible (NT) -- oorjanie, 17:53:15 09/02/07 Sun
      • yes i think the same. while i knew they would not be 'happily ever after' i did not see it coming 'at that moment' at all. am enjoying this book so much. back to reading ...... (NT) -- oorjanie, 07:53:29 09/01/07 Sat
        • Same here. I knew they wouldn't be together, but this really shocked me. I wasn't expecting it right at that moment. I love the way DG just shocks me sometimes...make the books so delicious to read. I've completely given up spoilers, too. I haven't read any for Book 7, but did read 3 for Brotherhood. I won't do that again, it ruins that surprised/shocked feeling that I love. (NT) -- Conmama, 12:19:27 09/01/07 Sat
          • I hope you don't mind me saying so but I feel totally different about the excerpts. I can understand not allowing talk about them on the regular boards, let's protect the phobics, but those of us who go to the excerpt boards or CompuServe want everything herself is willing to share with us. This is the fourth new book that I have read every single excerpt available for and I was NOT disappointed. I hope herself NEVER stops sharing excepts with us. Excerpts do not ruin my experience in any way, it is a personal choice to read or not to read them. -- Jane, 22:17:11 09/01/07 Sat
            • Oh course I don't mind you saying so! That is why there is an excerpt board and it's just my personal taste. I don't think there are anything wrong with spoilers, per se. (NT) -- Conmama, 04:57:17 09/02/07 Sun
            • And how many times have we read one of Diana's snippets and it wasn't even the way we imagined? (NT) -- GwenM, 06:03:11 09/02/07 Sun
              • I agree that often the feel of the excerpts changes when put in context within the story, but more often than not the excerpts do appear in the books pretty much intact. Blood Pudding from ABOSAA sticks out in my mind since it appreared in the Outlandish Companion pretty much intact and that was published years before ABOSAA came out. I'm betting Surgeon's Steel won't change much either when it shows up in book 7. Why would it? It is PERFECT! P.S. I can only talk about these excerpts here because they are in a published book otherwise it would be a NO NO! (NT) -- Jane, 07:44:54 09/02/07 Sun
  
  

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• Lord Melton? -- Aimee, 08:17:35 08/31/07 Fri [5]
  I might be forgeting or missing something, but why is Hal referred to as Lord Melton? Would they both be Lord "____" Grey? And it seems like Lord John is the only one that calls him Hal. Is that a pet name or nick name? Thanks in advance!
  

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  • Hal is short for Harold. As for the titles, he would have had a whole string of them. By choosing not to use his duke's title, he probably just moved on to the next one down, Lord Melton. For example, Prince Charles is Prince of Wales, but also Duke of Rothesay, Lord of the Isles, etc etc. (NT) -- Caroline B, 08:29:12 08/31/07 Fri
  • Please, someone help me with this. I must be extremely dense or read to fast. Why is LJG called "Lord", when the youngest son of an Earl should be addressed as "Honoraable". Sigh. (NT) -- Conmama, 11:59:15 09/01/07 Sat
    • This is addressed on p. 12. LJG uses the form of address for the younger son of a duke, which he is still officially entitled to. His brother Hal could do something similar, but he refuses. (As an American, I find these distinctions quite baffling, but the explanation for this one *is* in the book....) (NT) -- Karen, 13:31:48 09/01/07 Sat
      • Okay, so a title "Lord" can be used for any son of a duke, then? Ugh...sorry for being so slow. I will look at the books, then (NT) -- Conmama, 04:59:52 09/02/07 Sun
  
  

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• This board is ready for discussions, so have at it! -- Lady Jay, 06:50:50 08/30/07 Thu [4]
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  • Ok, could someone explain the whole "Cromwell" thing? I know who Cromwell was, but what is the relation with the round head? Did he have a round head? Is there a pun I don't get? Thanks! (NT) -- Lady Carine, 09:29:54 08/30/07 Thu
    • The troops of Oliver Cromwell's republican army were known as 'Roundheads' because of the shape of the helmets they wore, and also because of their short haircuts (as opposed to the decadent long-haired cavaliers)! (NT) -- Caroline B, 10:12:39 08/30/07 Thu
      • Thank you very much for that bit of information. I knew I was missing something, but couldn't figure out what! Now I know... *G* (NT) -- Lady Carine, 12:55:31 08/30/07 Thu
  
  

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• Oh and one other thing...Don't you think that the eyes on the book cover look like Clint Eastwood's eyes? When I got my parcel and opened it, my first impression was that Chapters had made a mistake. What kind of "cowboy book" was that? Then I read the title... Those eyes certainly don't look like LJ's eyes IMO... -- Lady Carine, 09:34:09 08/30/07 Thu [5]
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  • Yes, I thought Clint Eastwood, too. (NT) -- GwenM, 09:38:07 08/30/07 Thu
    • Thanks GwenM. I feel so much better now that I know I'm not the only one *G* (NT) -- Lady Carine, 10:09:29 08/30/07 Thu
  • Yes, I agree that those are the eyes that have been described in the "books", sort of beautiful in a way a woman's are. I still envision Jude Law's eyes. I do think that the covers will market the book well, for those just picking it up not knowing what they are getting. (NT) -- Conmama, 10:28:46 08/30/07 Thu
    • I mean those "aren't" the eyes described in the books. (NT) -- Conmama, 10:29:23 08/30/07 Thu
  
  

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