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Date Posted: 22:06:05 02/23/06 Thu
Author: Bradley Jayne
Subject: How far is too far?

I recently observed a teacher who after experiencing a disturbance in their classroom spoke openly with the students about it. These particular students were fifth graders. One of their peers who they have known for quite some time is constantly distruptive, and in this particular instance got into an argument and yelled some profanities and ran out of the classroom slamming the door. The particular teacher commented on how this student was in for trouble, called the office to notify them of this instance and hung up the phone. The teacher then asked the class what happened.
I personally felt that this was not very appropriate of this teacher to speak to the class as equals about what happened. I later voiced my opinions and feelings of the event when asked and the teacher explained that in this particular class this happens quite frequently and that the teacher felt it was important for the students to voice their concerns and understand that the disturbances are not fair or appropriate.
This incident produced a great fear of inclusion in the classroom in me. Not only did the incident disrupt the environment, but it also stopped the learning process and it was nearly impossible to continue the lesson.
But to get back to the issue of speaking openly with your students. As I stated earlier, I do not think it was very professional to speak to the students so openly, especially when they were only in the fifth grade. I could possibly see the discussion with high schoolers, but not in this situation. It also raises the discussion about what our job description of a teacher is? Is it our responsibility to counsel the entire class? If we do that when would there be time for learning?
What does everyone else think?

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Replies:

[> Re: How far is too far? -- Derek, 11:37:45 02/24/06 Fri [1]

BRAD -

Managing discipline in the classroom is partly inherited through personal experience and partly learned through higher level instruction (which is what we're going through right now). Therefore, I can only speculate on this matter using my previous "schemas and experiences".... plus my own opinion. Discipline is ultimately a part of who we are as people - so I shouldn't have to tell you how to manage a classroom. I can only make suggestions based on how I would manage a classroom.

First, let me say that I would agree with your point of view: it IS a bad idea to make such a big deal out of the situation to the entire class --- My personal belief is that students who walk out on a class are simply missing out on an opportunity to learn that day, and depending on what brings this about, the situation should be handled differently:

Say for example the student breaks one of your rules, disagrees with your method of "punishment" for breaking that rule, gets extremely mad, shoots off a couple rounds of profanities and storms out of the room. What started this was the student breaking your rule in the first place, so a disciplinary action should be taken IMMEDIATELY (calling the principal, figuring out how to punish the kid even more, or tackling the student in the hall would be an immediate disciplinary action....) The key is to execute this disciplinary action in such a manner that doesn't keep the rest of the students sitting in their seats while you run around dealing with the problem. Make all your efforts to discipline students as quick as possible; and if applicable, make these actions as discretely as possible. In this type of a situation, you might need to make a bigger deal out the situation to show the other students how serious the problem is -- but NEVER open it up for discussion... Our initial reaction to a walk-out would be to handle the situation much less discretely than if it were a simple problem in the classroom (such as disrespecting something or someone) but remember it was just one walk-out -- you still have a class full of students to teach. Deal with it and move on...

Now, if the student walked out of your class because they disagreed with what you were teaching or assigning, then disciplinary action should be a little different in this type of a situation. I've seen students disagree with what the teacher was assigning them, get upset, shoot off a couple rounds of profanities, get threatened with either doing the assignment or going to the principal's office, and then walk out. They CHOOSE to leave class because this is complete "B... S..." or something along those lines. In this type of a situation, the student did not break one of your classroom rules -- no one was mistreated -- they simply walked out on their own. The reason they walked out in the first place was simply a matter of disagreement between teacher and student. No rules were actually broken, so disciplinary action should be at your own leisure. Sometimes the student will come to their senses, and walk back into class. (Most often they'll be stopped by a hall aid, though, and get forced back into class) The difference between this type of situation and the first type of situation is that this walk-out was a result of something a little less serious than breaking class rules. Because of this, the only action that needs to be taken is notifying another staff member of the walk out. Disciplinary action can wait until after class in this type of situation if you're more than halfway into the period. There's no need to run around making a bigger deal out of it than it already is. We just need to make sure the kid doesn't run away. Notify another teacher of the situation and move on...

(Again, a discussion is certainly not needed in this type of situation...)

My point with all of this is simple: discipline is based on such an individual basis that it doesn't matter what we learn about disciplinary actions -- nothing will prepare us completely for what lies ahead.

If a student breaks a rule, action should be taken immediately. If a student is whining about assignments or disagreeing with what you're telling them to do, action should be taken as soon as possible. In either case, the disciplinary action should be done as swiftly as possible.
Now, in my own experience disciplinary action for breaking rules consisted of warnings. You don't have to pounce on the kid and send him to the office the second he breaks a rule. It's okay to warn students. But if they walk out as a result of refusing your "punishment," then the warnings should be dropped (and you should, in fact, chase the kid down the hall -- yodeling at the top of your lungs)...

Basically, we can't expect to have students agree with us 100% of the time. Their will always be some sort of disagreement. The key is to figure out why they disagree with you, and sometimes that can be hard to understand. The manner in which we handle these problems, therefore, needs to be quick and precise. Discussions should be out of the question, especially for fifth graders. The easiest way to get rid of a pest is to ignore it. Drawing attention to the problem in front of the entire class is unnecessary. Plus, the more discrete you can be, the better things will run. Only blow up or make a big deal out of the situation if you feel it's absolutely necessary. And remember, the younger they are, the less it takes to get them off track. Having a student walk out is enough to get them distracted. Delaying class to have a discussion is suicidal for the teacher. We shouldn't be counseling the entire class...

The general rule of thumb (at least from my experience) is that the sooner teachers deal with disciplinary problems the better. Use your own judgement, but don't delay too long - and certainly never bring more attention to the fact that somebody just "got in trouble" by talking about it further with the class. Sometimes students need immediate disciplinary actions. Sometimes they just need to collect their thoughts. Regardless of what happens, remember that ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. Your students should be smart enough to figure out how serious you are without talking about it openly.

(I realize I might have rambled on a bit, but I hope that helps...)

Just be a grizzly bear - "huggable" but "mean" all at the same time...


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[> Re: How far is too far? -- J. Padley, 08:26:41 02/27/06 Mon [1]

I can't say I fully agree with the belief that a teacher should NOT discuss disciplinary matters with students, but I also won't say that they should. I DO, however, fully agree with Derek, that all disciplinary matters should be dealt with on an individual basis. I can't say whether I think this teacher went too far or not without knowing exactly what the situation was, what the overall classroom environment is like, and what the teacher's philosophy is. I believe that there are times when the teacher must discuss issues with the class that are not part of the curriculum, whether that be political, social, disciplinary, or otherwise. I also believe that children are brilliant. Fifth graders are not incompetent. An elementary student thinks at just as high level as a 30 y/o rocket scientist, they just don't have the same experiencial background. Also, discussing the issue with the other students might give the teacher some insight as to WHY the student did what he did. Maybe the teacher only disapproved of what the student did because they didn't understand WHY he did it. In the end, though, these issues should be addressed on an individual basis. Every single student and every single situation should be treated differently.


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[> Re: How far is too far? -- Laura, 09:42:54 04/10/06 Mon [1]

I would have to agree with Brad and say that it was very inappropriate for the teacher to speak so openly to a room full of fifth graders. I think that a conversation should take place between the teacher and the student who was being disruptive, however I don't believe that it was neccessary for the teacher to speak to the entire class on the subject. Viewing teachers that I have had in the past, whenever there was a disruptive student the teacher told them to see him or her after class and of course we carried on with our lesson. It's important not to let other students interfere with learning.


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[> Re: How far is too far? -- Erika, 13:22:08 04/10/06 Mon [1]

I agree with Laura about the idea that in most cases a conversation should be handled between the problem causing student and the teacher but not the entire class. In most cases it is better to not involve the rest of the class because not only will it totally disrupt class for an extended amount of time but the other students might contribute information and feelings about the student that do not really need to be shared with the rest of the class. The teacher can always inform the rest of the class that they would be happy to talk with the students if they feel there is a concern towards a trouble making student. In this case they would not have to take lots of class time and make it into a large discussion but students would also have the opportunity to share their own opinions at some point of time if they were concerned.


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[> [> Re: How far is too far? -- Molly, 19:42:31 04/10/06 Mon [1]

If you ask me, it just doesn't seem very mature on the part of the teacher here to discuss their disciplinary issues with 9 and 10-year-olds. It's a private matter between the educator and the student and it is ridiculous for this teacher to discuss it with the class. The student was trying to disrupt things and make a scene. They succeeded and the teacher was simply carrying it too far. If it's been dealt with, then MOVE ON.


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[> [> [> Re: How far is too far? -- patrick clinage, 08:13:35 04/25/06 Tue [1]

that is true but if you deal with it and just as you say MOVE ON won't the child just do it again and then you will have to use disciplinary measures and it will make you look like you can't manage your own classroom


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