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| Subject: advice about conscience | |
Author: squinney man (thoughtful) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 24/06/07 11:12 I kill feral pigeons and grey squirrels. Can this be accepted in the craft. I would be happy to recieve advice. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
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Author: Pilgrim [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 24/06/07 13:42 Why do you kill them? Do you believe in the wiccan rede? If you do follow the rede, does your heart tell you to extend it to animals as well as humans? Only you can really answer the question as to whether or not killing these animals fits in with your beliefs. If it's being done just for fun, I personally wouldn't think that was right. Because most practitioners of the craft have a nature based belief system and this would IMO be disrespectful to nature. I also don't believe in any form of animal sacrifice so that would not fit IMO. But if I were an exterminator by trade then I would be performing a service by removing vermine that can cause disease. Then IMO it would not be in conflict with my beliefs. Also if the animals were being used as food I would personally not find any problem with it. Again only you can truly answer this question. Happy journey. Pilgrim [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (unsure) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 24/06/07 17:37 Thank you for your replies,Pilgrim i think you may speak in general craft thought truths,but i feel a great sense of gratitude for wolfsdreams opinion.I do what i do because i feel it is needful, but it still makes me feel the loss of the creatures spirit.I hope you get my drift. Thank you again,regards the squinney man. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Wolfsdream [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 24/06/07 14:19 I think Pilgrim has summed things up nicely. I note you say 'feral pigeon and grey squirrel'. This makes me wonder if what your doing is more in the way of management. Feral pigeon make a mess and spread disease. Grey squirrel are wiping out our native red squirrel. As Pilgrim has said, only you can really answer this question,though I suspect what you do is for a valid reason. Wolfsdream. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: whitewolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 25/06/07 1:48 At the end of the day it is you that has to live with your actions...it is your conscience... and not for anyone else to tell you what is 'right' or 'wrong' / condone or condemm. If it helps, not all those 'in the craft' follow the Wiccan Rede of 'harm none'(it is, after all, a Wiccan concept) ;) If you feel that what you do is a needful thing but still feel uncomfortable, perhaps you could find comfort by including a ritual for those you have culled? (or something you feel comfortable with to mark their passing over)... Culling with respect - if that makes sense.... Welcome to the Garden by the way :) Blessings whitewolf [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (hopeful) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 25/06/07 7:14 Thank you Whitewolf for your welcome,i wish you and everyone else all that is good. I have realised i was probably looking for people to bolster my guilt trip. I have decided to keep doing what i do,but i will do as you have suggested and have some kind of ceremony for the culled animals.I do think the animals in question are harmful to our enviorment,but living things they are just the same so i will try and give them the easiest of crossings.I have been reading the other articles i hope every one gets what they need to see them through. kind wishes, squinney man. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: jade [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 25/06/07 17:19 hmm interesting thought, the "harm none" I used to live on a farm and had over 200 cows, the rabbits (of which there were thousands literally) used to dig so many warrens that the cows use to fall down them and break their legs, so we had to shoot as many of the rabbits as possible. It was not something i was keen on, but i didnt like seeing the cows in pain either, and yeah we tried lots of other methods, but boy do rabbits breed!!! A lot of people didnt understand why I would do this, especially being a vegetarian. But sometimes you really do need to look at the bigger picture of life. so.... I think that again if you have a valid reason, [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: sam spaniel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 25/06/07 20:53 my dad 'culls' pigeon, grey squirrel, and a lot of vermin, the pigeon is food, the vermin is to allow other wildlife to become stronger, and to reduce the 'risk' of disease,whitewolfs idea of a ceremony/ritual for the animal is a wise suggestion. i don't know what else to say now so i'll go.... blessings to all sam xxx [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (heartened) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 26/06/07 7:33 Thank you jade,sam spaniel,I feel its helping the birds and helping the red squirrels.You should see the mess the feral pigeons leave,they are so distructive.Where i live in Scotland we are helping the reds along as compared to the greys they are vunerable. I see more greys now than i did last year,so i feel its time to support my little friends.Kind regards, Squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: paganwolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 26/06/07 9:04 I used to be married to a game keepers daughter so am only too aware of the damage these can do. Pigeons (especially the after mess if you catch my drift) are destructive. I had no quarms about shooting them, remember, they can be eaten or if like i used to, Fed to Birds of prey or given to the rescue centres Grey squirrels are rats. pure and simple. They are not native to the UK and are larger, more aggressive and more destructive than our native reds. In the past, I have taken part in the deer culls on Cannock chase, Barbaric sounding I know but it preserves the existing stocks and the environment around them Natural selection within the UK has dissappeared so I don't have any issues with what you said. In my humble opinion, there is no crime in killing an animal if it is to be used but I have no time for recreational shooters. It does sound like a good idea if you wish to perform a ritual to ease your concience. Hope this in some way helps Blessings Paganwolf )0( [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 26/06/07 9:24 In my view as a pagan, I do not see it my right to make the decision to cull. I cannot resolve the act of taking away a life no matter how I look at it. I also do not see myself as 'higher' than an animal and apply the same principles to animal life as I do human life. Intuitively you know what feels right however, that is if you meditate and feel the vibrational affects of your actions within yourself and your environment. I find that more useful personally that trying to reason something out as you can always find reasons for things. For Jade's example. If a farmer was not keeping cows for dairy and food in the first place, the cows would not be in the position for their legs to break. Again, hard to know where it all begins and ends. My tpnth worth Blessings mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (settled) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 26/06/07 19:54 Paganwolf i think your point of view makes a lot of sense,if we left some animals to there own care, humans and other animals would soon find things uncomfortable. What would happen to all the cows Mel if Jade and her friends and consumers didnt need them,would they be left to roam? Regards to all. Squinney man. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: zenwind [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 27/06/07 8:48 I cannot answer this in terms of the craft, I'm Buddhist. However just wanted to say I think it's great you're engaging with your conflict with ethical awareness and wholehearted concern. Hope this thread has helped you. namaste zenwind /\ [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (respectful) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 27/06/07 18:55 Thank you Zenwind, For me your words are the words. Squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 27/06/07 16:25 "Mel if Jade and her friends and consumers didnt need them,would they be left to roam?" It is simple; if we did not breed them, the rest would live out their natural lives in peace and the cycle of exploitation would stop. In my view, if an animal is assigned a "purpose", it is exploitation. If the cows did not produce milk or meat then I am sure they would not have been kept there in the first place on the farm! Farmers cull unproductive chickens and cows and replace them with animals from a previous generation. It is not a symbiotic relationship! As a pagan who believes in a certain type of karma I cannot resolve this. I canoot see it is my right to willingly shorten the wonderful precious lives of animals or human animals. Blessings Melanie [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (thoughtful) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 27/06/07 19:47 I do understand what you are saying Melanie,it is important we can all try and appreciate others views. Thats why i came to the garden in the first place,i take my karma very very seriously. Thanks,Squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Wolfsdream [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 27/06/07 20:24 Man has removed the natural predators from the equation in this country. So it is up to us to manage the animals as best we can. Now, I would agree that we have not done that very well in the past(to put it mildly)but some action has to be taken to at least try to maintain some balance. As someone who in the past has killed animals, both for pest control and for food I can understand the dilema faced here. BUT, everything we do has an effect. We are rightly concerned about killing animals as it causes them distress but what about all the plants we kill? No, that is not a daft, silly or simplistic question. It has long been proven that plants are just as aware of what goes on around them as animals are. Further more it has been shown by repeated experiment that plants know when someone is abut to harm them or another plant near them. They react to such threats with what can only be described as fear. Plants are aware! They are in a very real sense 'conscious'. Given that we humans have to exsist for our alloted life span it follows that we have to kill or at least harm living things to survive. Of course it also, to my mind anyway, means we should take care of all living things around us in the best way we can. Thus there is bound to be some moral conflict and it is up to each of us to resolve that as best we can. Wolfsdream. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (thoughtful) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 27/06/07 20:52 Very few think about the poor plants,well said. Squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Melanie [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 9:32 Hi "it is important we can all try and appreciate others views. Thats why i came to the garden in the first place" Me too. I just would hope that Gaia would take care of things. I love animals, plant and insect life. The amount we can reduce killing the better, yes including plant life. I don't like imposing my will on other beings and though I cannot live without plants, I can live without animals so I can reduce the using of other beings to some degree. It breaks my heart that they are hurt in any way. Blessings Mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (sad) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 10:14 I feel i need to do this, because i think if i dont and others like me stop then our world would loose out. I also think you are a better person than I. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (sad) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 11:00 Hi Melanie, The first time i killed a feral pigeon i felt like i had just smothered a baby.then later that week a friend i was driving nuts said read about them on the net,grey squirrles to,I wont go into details but i have killed many feral pigeons since.Apart from a few pockets in England the only place safe for red squirrels now is in Scotland,and that changes with every grey that reaches adulthood.If i was to stop killing these creatures then the ones gone would have died in vain, i dont think they did .I have to live with my actions and perhaps if i cross to the sommerlands i may find i was wrong,thats not a comforting thought. Blessings to you,Graeme Henderson. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Pilgrilm [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 14:15 Gray squirrel can be used as food. I have eaten them and they are tasty. Also the skins can be used. You might be able to something with the killed ones. On the subject of harming plants. I once met a man that would not eat any "Thing of Death." he only ate plant materials that did not harm the plant itself, ie: nuts, fruits, grains etc. He would drink milk and eat cheese also as those products didn't kill the animal. He seemed happy and healthy. Me personally.... I like meat. I eat way too much of it and could definitely benefit from a more vegetarian diet but I like meat. In terms of the rede.. I am not Wiccan but I do like the rede as a general guideline for my craft. But I will hunt and fish. Well I would but my wife and kids won't eat any "WILD STUFF EEWWW!" LOL My wife won't even eat veggies from the garden. She thinks it's gross because we don't know if a cat sprayed or a dear licked it. I haven't pointed out that farmers don't know that either. I guess she thinks all farms are fenced or something.LOL [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (unsure) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 19:33 Hi Pilgrim, Strange as it may sound i don't eat much meat but it would be a poor diet without.The creatures i kill are disposed with as soon as possible,followed with a ritual i feel is right.I have a seconed cousin whose diet you would not believe i can't understand how she is still alive,she is afraid she is offending some living thing all the time,i would not like to be as extreme as that. Good Blessings,Squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Melanie [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 14:42 If we have a moral obligation to undo damage by "imposters," how far back to we go to start? At what point do we measure when animals are native? Many aboriginals refer to feral cats as "new animals" still. Should they kill them? The universe changes, the balance changes. Biodeversity changes. I believe this. I think you should hold onto that feeling of pain you felt the first time you culled. For the pigeon is not being malicious on purpose so your respect should not change on the words of your friend. Any action of violance that becomes second nature I think is dangerous. Being spiritually aware is importnat. Perhaps you might think of the compassion for the other animals and for the one you cull. That will be karmically safer. For what you are trying to do after all I know you are just trying to look at the big picture. But it is difficult whenever humanity takes the role of protector the hierarchy is clear. Do we kill off an over-population of sea-lions in California to protect fish species and the commercial fishing that supports the surrounding communities of animals and humans? Would you? I also guess my problem comes from a belief that forms of life are interchangeable. I could have once been a squirrel. That is selfish but is also how I feel the universe works. (My hindu influences on the path). An example I read about: In Australia, cane toads (a species with few predators) were introduced from America to control sugar cane beetles. Humans did not have the wisdom to know this was the wrong thing to do at that time. Not only did it fail the toad now threatens the survival of a variety of native reptiles, amphibians and mammals . Where human hygiene is poor, they are known to transmit salmonella. So we do not know that what we do is for the best. We do not have the wisdom, we are not at the top of the tree. Or so I believe. It is why it is a thorny thing and I prefer to assume the position of just not knowing what to do and falling back on my reverence for all life. Blessings Mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (resigned) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 29/06/07 19:03 Hi Mel, I cant stop somthing i feel is right,your points of view are perhaps more ethically correct in the large picture of the end game.I envy your unspoiled record. I have seen a red squirrle with the pox from the greys that are immune to it,a long painful death, Feral pigeons can pass several illnesses some i believe can be fatal. Some may think i am playing the high and mighty,i cant change that.I have no argument left.I will have to stick to my guns as they say. Blessings squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 30/06/07 6:32 Hello Everyone, Although my visit to the garden has been brief i would like to thank all you nice caring people for the very thoughtful advice you have given me. I can't help feeling a hypocrite when i try to join your debates considering the reasons i came to be in the garden in the first place,it can't be right to kill a feral pigeon,or a grey squirrle then come to the garden and be Mr nice guy five minutes later.I am sure people joining your little family are going to be lucky for the duration of there stay.Thank you Mel for your very sound advice,and you whitewolf for your welcome to me.Being a huge fan of the lord Buddha,i would like to thank you Zenwind for the warm advice. I wish you all the best blessings from the Lord and the ever loving Lady.Best regards Graeme Henderson.Squinney. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Pilgrim [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 1/07/07 7:33 Good luck to you and may your journey be a happy one. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Ash [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 1/07/07 14:28 I kill pigeons, larcen, squirrels, bunnies and other pest species. I have absolutely no moral qualms about it. People can believe what they want, but the minute someone says it isn't right and it taints my beliefs then they can get...lost. At the end of the day nature is more than just animals, it is landscape, geology etc. Killing off a few rapid breeding invasive species in my opinion is brilliant, it means they do not out compete other species, or get so large in quantity they die painfully of pestilence and malnurishment. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Earth-Fire [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 1/07/07 17:06 ok here's my opinion, as a member of the human race i hold my hands up and say we are the worst offenders of abuse to Gaia. we are locusts who spread disease, famine and war. If anyone needs culling it's probably us! I do not think anyone person should be incriminated for there views beliefs and actions. I truly believe we should not kill for no valid reason that we ourselves cannot justify. I eat meat so I'll be damned if i tell squinney man he can't cull pigeons and squirrels for whatever reason if See's fit. I'm actual starting to have more of a problem with dairy. I don't think eating butter cheese and drinking milk for me is ok. Today i found out what happens to dairy cows to make milk that is then put into dairy products. This to me is not right and i will not eat or drink anything that is made in such a way!And believe me this is a big thing most people i personal know name me a Minnie mouse i love cheese. lol:P But i will carry on eating meat, because i know the meat i eat and give my family is sound and has had a good and free life. I spend more money and do research of where my food comes from to make sure of this. So if you are a strict vegan then hats off to you, if you don't buy leather use no chemicals in cleaning or self care then great. If you use solar power, do not waste energy don't smoke don't do drugs, only ware second hand clothes and waste nothing! If you are kind and not over opinionated. And if your not using the Internet (lets face it it's a waste of energy. Then to you i'm not a better person. I would like to be more like you. To everyone else i'm am myself i make no apologise! [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: zenwind [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 1/07/07 17:11 Hi squinney, Hope your visit isn't going to be short and you will spend some more time in the garden! :) Om mani padme hum zenwind [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: whitewolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 1/07/07 17:18 Squinney - I wish you all the best, it's been a pleasure to have you in the Garden and I hope you will call again soon :) I also hope your leaving isn't down to anything anyone has said - we are ALL entitled to our own opinions and beliefs and no-one has the right to say whether we are right or wrong. Live YOUR path. Bright Blessings whitewolf [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: squinney man (so humble) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 1/07/07 21:36 My Dear Friends, Thank you for such kind words,when i sort this situation of mine out, how could i not come back to this garden of love and peace. My love for you all, thank you. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Melanie [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 2/07/07 10:12 Oh this is not about people being "better people" than others or inferior either! Discussion of ethics is key and constant in most of the major religions and naturally will arise in many spiritual paths too. Suggesting you are a hypocrite and are not a "mr nice guy" and cannot post in other threads............ is totally unnessary. I saw that you came here to hear others interpretations of life on a pagan path and I shared mine. How we suddenly got into conversations about some people being better than others is beyond me?........ that is just silly. We are all doing the best we can according to our karma. Issues of collective karma are also things I think about and question........... such as actions we do as part of a couple, nation, organisation and as families for example. But there is no finger pointing here! Blessings Mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Paganwolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 2/07/07 10:47 THE INITIAL POINT Think we have an issue with the general balance of the habitation in whatever way we interprate it. Two thousand years ago, humans had a life expectancy of about 35 years. We had large predators here in the UK (Wolves, Bears etc). These would cull the weaker of the species themselves and humans would not place themselves at uneccesary risk. As mentioned before, Thomas Malthus theorised that with a finite amount of land, finite amount of breathable oxygen depending on a finite amount of plants, the planet can only sustain a finite amount of species. This number at present is assumed to be 35% over this theoretical number at present.Whether we lijke to accept the fact or not, the scientific thinking (not mine) is that the continent of Africa is over populated by humans to the tune of 52%. There are places hotter and drier than death valley, it is a physical impossibility to grow crops here but we happily send of a couple of quid a month (well I do). How one balances their Karma and establishes their own interpretation is for them alone. I'm not saying that no-one here knows of the damage that none native animals can do, Mink for example have killed of most of the water voles in the north of the country. I will shoot an animal if there is to my concience, a need or it can be utilized. Deer culling is always a sticky subject but I can give you assurances that the people who do it are the best of the best and damn good shots. Its carried out to the letter of the law, the numbers are strictly regulated as are the locations. The requirements are set down to start with and unlike a lot of recreational shooting, If you bring down a deer, you confirm it dead before moving on (not a practice unfortunately utilized in grouse shooting). This is not meant to defend my actions but to me, I class myself as a good shot and I would rather have good people doing it than a bunch of hooray henries. As mentioned before, it isn't easy at times, It can take a lot of courage to squeeze the trigger and I will always surrender the shot if the deer looks at me. Thats when I can't do it. Earth fire has raise a very valid point. Before the industrial revolution, we took only what we needed, now we are exhausting none replacable materials at an alarming rate. We as humans are the worst offenders for the disruption of the Karmic balance. We take all and give little if anything in return. If the Human race died out tomorrow, Gaia could rebuild herself but we are fast approaching the tilt point when irreversable damage to the planet will occurr. Chief Seattle summed it up perfectly. 'Only when the last fish has been caught Only when the last buffalo has been killed Only when the last tree has been felled Only then will man realize you can't eat money' These are purely my musings and no way indicative of the others who post here. Glad you're staying Blessings Paganwolf )0( [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Wolfsdream [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 2/07/07 19:09 Well said Melanie and Paganwolf. Agree with you both. And Squinney Man...hope you stick around. Wolfie. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: sam spaniel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 2/07/07 21:39 squinney man.... i do hope you stick around... IMO life is all about difference, everyone is an individual and each path leads in a different direction,and we all end up where we are meant to be. none of us are better than the other, none of us should feel guilty or ashamed of who we are, what we do, how we look etc (although all too often we are)I respect each individual for their individuality, we are all different for our own reasons, and really; life would be all too boring if we were all the same!! gripe over (lol) love sam xxx [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 5/07/07 11:25 "we all end up where we are meant to be. none of us are better than the other, none of us should feel guilty or ashamed of who we are, what we do, how we look etc" I don't fully agree with the 'what we do' bit Sam. When living in a society we have to consider the effect of our individuality on others. Or so I think. There are some times when people should feel ashamed of what they do. There may be behaviours that you don't like your children doing, you still love and accept them but you know there are ways to behave...... being kind, not hurting others.... This is no reflection on the discussion about culling, this is about conduct in society. Blessings mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 5/07/07 11:31 "I cannot answer this in terms of the craft, I'm Buddhist. However just wanted to say I think it's great you're engaging with your conflict with ethical awareness and wholehearted concern. Hope this thread has helped you." Zen Wind, What is your view then? I am not trying to stir here but just wondered. I know buddhists dont like to push their views down peoples throats but would be interested. I think we all need to work together on such things and resist the temptation to sit on the fence. blessings mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: zenwind [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 5/07/07 13:24 Hi Melanie, I take a neutral position because I do not feel that this particular topic can be seen simply in terms of black and white. I do not want to add unnecessarily to the suffering or upset of humanity and other sentient beings on this planet but know I am part of a system that does, and so I do. Personally I would never wish to intentionally kill, although of course I kill insects all the time.... every time I drive my car. Still, I think intention is important in any action. In terms of karma well how on earth do I know? It makes sense to me that every action has a consquence but I do not feel 'I' will personally be punished or rewarded (as in an afterlife/reincarnation/sin) as I believe I am part (like a cell) of a dynamically changing universe that experiences the consequences of all actions already. So I experience the pain or well being of this universe all the time......hurting as a 'cell' (analogy) in this universe when she (and any animal or human within her) is hurting, and feeling peace when any animal or human is happy. To me this is most clear when I meditate and connect but I also feel a sense that the universe is inherently peaceful and can be again. I feel the effects of karma already, the effects of everyone and myself on the universe, of which I am an expression. In my belief system. So all I can do is apply as much of my own understanding, contemplation and compassion in any decision I make and do my best for gaia who is me and everything else too (or so I believe). In terms of the future, all I work with is the "here and now". That is where I feel my sense of agency is. So I try to tread lightly in life today, work out how much it is my 'self centred' ego rather my knowledge of myself as part of an ecosystem driving my decisions..... and with that information, stick to an action that feels the 'right' for me. That is all I can do. In terms of debates and views they are important yet but also to some extent they can create suffering and always well, as will rigid belief systems..... I always like this DH Lawrence quote: "Life and love are life and love, a bunch of violets is a bunch of violets, and to drag in the idea of point is to ruin everything. Live and let live, love and let love, flower and fade, and follow the natural curve which flows on, pointless." Namaste zenwind [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: whitewolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 8/07/07 18:10 "...I believe I am part (like a cell) of a dynamically changing universe..." Yes! me too :) [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: paganwolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 6/07/07 9:06 I think this thread has encapsulated what whitewolf intended all along with this site. It is more apparent that although we are of many different faiths, the fact we can discuss our perspectives here without fear of redress or feel comfortable asking others what they think or how they understand their own teachings shows that. Blessings Paganwolf )0( [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: mel (inspired) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 6/07/07 9:32 I agree paganwolf. Is marvellous this thread. Thanks a bundle Zenwind for your reply. My view of karma is more hindu than buddhist. I believe for example I used to be an animal, a peaceful one who is now a human being able to elevate to higher realms with the right conduct. I feel that actions I do will result in a less favourable rebirth for me whereas I see from your perspective zenwind I would not be singled out like that. I would be changing and transforming as part of the universe..it is not personal though actions I do as part of the universe can affect the organisms transformation. Maybe I have got you wrong. Anyway. thanks a million for sharing everyone. I do find it heartening shall i even say a relief to read others views! It is freeing. Almost relieving of fear. I have found this whole thread has taught me a lot. Has taught me that I am operating a lot on what my immediate group of rather actvist vegan friends think (embarrassing for a woman who is kind of middle aged). Thank you all for opening my mind and freeing me from my own narrow thinking. Blessings and light melanie [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: jade [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 6/07/07 18:26 wow what a long thread, been interesting to read the points of view, and im all for a great debate i have to say. But in this topic I have to agree in principle with Zen, its just so not black and white. Outwardly killing, can be discussed, and debated, but we forget the fumes from our cars, the pollution that kills, its just such a huge topic, I do think its good that people have their views and want to stick to it, and i admire the perceptions people have on here for not wanting to harm any form of life. I think intent is the most important thing to me, in terms of who I am and what I want to give/take from this planet, I think most topics here really have been covered, so im not adding anything new, interesting what you say earthF about the dairy though, having worked on a dairy farm i can tell ya a few stories. lol. But it made my point that it is more than just "killing" an animal, you dont have to kill an animal to harm it in my view, and i also think the population could do with being culled also lol (metaphorically speaking) but who decides on what is or what isnt right, or who stays or who goes. we all have our own journeys, its what makes us free, free to choise, to learn and to grow. Hopefully as the earth learns and our souls learn with each new incarnation the world will elevate to a place that is the world we would want now. great threads been really interesting thanks jade [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: sam spaniel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 7/07/07 7:38 mel, by saying we should never be ashamed of who we are od what we do etc i meant by our decisions in life and taking the path we chose to take.... i would be ashamed if for instance i found a member of my family or a friend were murderers or rapists etc . but thats a whole different ball game, what i meant (for example) is many a time i have been walking alone in town , minding my own business,doing my shopping etc and some group of teens (usually boys) shout 'freak / goth etc ..... at me, why should i be ashamed of who i am? but at some points it has upset me to the point of going straight back to the car and going home. what i'm getting at is, why should squinney be ashamed of what he does if that is his path? my dad does much the same and works alongside a gamekeeper, one day on his way home from a shoot, a woman stopped her car wound her window down and shouted at my dad that he was a murderer and that he should be ashamed of himself.... what right had she got, to do that without asking why? before she said it.? i'm not having a go by the way, but why should people like my dad and squinney be ashamed of what they do when all they are trying to do is help nature regrowth? squinney... are you a member of BASC? me and dad are... its the british association for shooting AND conservation , their website is worth a look as it explains why . sorry!! i hope i haven't upset anyone, its just a subject that touches a few nerves with me, mel can i ask what environment you live in? eg country,town, city etc? blessings and love to all sam x [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: sam spaniel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 7/07/07 7:46 http://www.basc.org.uk/ imo it is worth a look there is a section about conservation, explaining why. love sam xx [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: whitewolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 8/07/07 18:05 No need to apologise Sam - wise words, and an interesting organisation/website! Melanie, I do not mean to offend with my comments, they are just observations (and certainly online it is harder to read a person than face to face)... you appear to have a very black and white view of things, and some of your comments come across as rather judgemental - I have said before that we are ALL entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. I accept that I may have interpreted your comments in a way you had not intended them - you seem to come back at people who have offered their opinion and almost infer that they are wrong to have that opinion. We can not all agree on the same view, we are individuals... whilst you may see something a certain way, there will almost certainly be someone with a different view, a kind of balancing act if you will. This is the way life is. Diversity is beautiful! :) I would like to stress that I do not mean to offend you with my observations Melanie - and at any rate, debates are bound to get a little heated at times lol. It's always interesting to see the range of beliefs and opinions which (happily) exist side by side in the Garden :) Thank you everyone! [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Melanie [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 9/07/07 9:51 Hi Whitewolf, I feel really upset by your post. In my last post I actually admitted that I may have been hasty in my posts...I said "I have found this whole thread has taught me a lot.....thank you all for opening my mind and freeing me from my own narrow thinking" And yet you respond and in a way I feel quite patronised telling me I am judgemental after I had admitted to as much. This feels a slap in the face. Anyway. Perhaps it is the fault of being a forum. Sam. I grew up in the countryside though spent a lot of time in south africa among people how have no civil librerties and no human rights. and are voiceless. It made me feel for the many animals who cannot defend themselves day to day from humans and need those who can to protect them. I just think life is precious that is all. Blessings Melanie [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: whitewolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 9/07/07 12:03 Melanie, I am sorry... I stressed that I did not mean to offend - and certainly had not intended it as a slap in a face. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Earth-Fire [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 9/07/07 12:35 I think we need to remember that we are here on an invite, and this is actually some-ones business not just a forum. I also believe that there are certain rules we are asked to take into consideration in the Beautiful garden. Respecting other peoples views. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Blackhawk [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 9/07/07 13:08 IMHO : (just thought I'd throw my tuppence into the ring) Killing, per se, is not "wrong". Killing is an action undertaken by individuals, nature, fate and abstract concepts such as accidents. All life ends. Killing a creature or entity is merely changing the "scheduled" moment of termination, if one can indeed do such a thing (let's not expand the subject to talk about fate, because we'll be here all day wondering whether G W Bush was predestined to kill a million Iraqis, and is therefore doing the work of universal fate). If one believes in an afterlife of any sort, then should killing be such a big deal? Is it not the same as moving a creature from one field to another? So is the problem less about the ending of a transitory life, and more about the suffering of the fated creature? Is it more acceptable to kill an endangered creature in a humane manner than to slaughter a commonplace one in a barbaric manner? Is killing really a topic which should be thought about in religious terms, or is it solely about personal life decisions? IMHO : though I consider "right" and "wrong" to be artificial constructs rather than universal absolutes, I would judge the merits of specific killings with reference to the attitude of the killer (whether killing through rage or a defensive need, with respect for the life taken or with little concern) and the repercussions of such a death (we've all heard the one about "if you could go back in time and kill Adolf Hitler, would you?", and many people answer in the affirmative). IMHO : to hold the opinion that nothing should be killed for whatever reason is as absurd as saying that life should be exterminated on a whim. Do we promote the existence of fleas? Of bacteria harmful to us? Do we seek to expand the lifespan of the AIDS virus or malaria-carrying mosquitos? IMHO : Death is irrelevant. Life is a choice. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 9/07/07 13:54 I too am sorry if I offended anyone and I thought I was repsecting peoples views. And I did not know this was a private forum open to invitation only, if I had known that I would never have posted here. So I am sorry many times over and will bid you all farewell. Blessings and peace Mel [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Earth-Fire [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 9/07/07 14:06 Perhaps there has been some misunderstanding,we are "INVITED" to air our views,i did not mean to imply this was a private forum. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: zenwind [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 10/07/07 8:38 Hi Mel I just wondered if I know you? Maybe from another board? You seem familiar. Anyway, freedom of belief is so important to me and surely preventing this is the basis of so much hostility in the world. I don't think anyone coming here means to stir up any upset and I don't think you do either. Personally am not going to post in this thread again. Happy trails. namaste zenwind [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 10/07/07 9:29 Zenwind. Yes I e mailed you ages ago to introduce myself and let you know that I am a friend of seema who used to write here under the handle Sweetsong. Reading my messages over again I still am not sure what I have done wrong but as the moderators aren't happy with my messages then that is all I need to know as they have the final say and I don't want to break any rules. Also as everyone else on the forum has pointed out I have been out of line I must have been. Lesson learnt. Again I am truly sorry for any upset caused I have obviously disrupted things without meaning to. This is one of the nicest pagan forums I have found on the net and I never meant to do that. These issues are close to all of our hearts and are emotive and hard to discuss calmly if I spoke out of line it was only because I am not used to talking about these subjects with a calm head. Sorry again many times over. Blessings Melanie [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: paganwolf [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 10/07/07 9:56 Nothing to apolgise for, Like everyone, you aired your views, It is a discussion therefore not everyone will share them , or the lack of infliction in the words only present in the voice may lead to confusion and misunderstanding. As EF says, we are invited to air our views, now anyone here who says they have never got someones back up is either not posting or a liar. The point is, that we come form many backgrounds, I'm a city lad who spent time in the country, there are others who are country folk in the city, people who are country through and through and city through and through. We all have different perceptions of life, natural death, accelerated death. what i've found from this is that I have a better understanding of other peoples opinions. It would be very tedious if everyone just agreed, or held back their true feelings. I for one have enjoyed this thread. It has been wellwritten and executed throughout. Blessings Paganwolf )0( [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
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Author: Mel [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 11/07/07 9:17 Thanks Pagawolf. I really did not mean to make anybody feel uncomfortable and will be very careful before I open my mouth in the future. Blessings Melanie [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |