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Date Posted: 03:39:45 10/22/06 Sun
Author: Your Source of Independent News (THE CORRIDORS OF POWER)
Subject: Anwar Ibrahim: Shifting guns to remain afloat?
In reply to: THE CORRIDORS OF POWER 's message, "Anwar Ibrahim: Shifting guns to remain afloat?" on 03:27:28 10/22/06 Sun

alicar wrote:
Haiwaachee wrote:
(They have no proven success to interact well outside their community.)

If that means mixing with non Muslims, it is obvious Muslims have no problems with that. It is a bit weird to seek proof of interaction here when it is all over the place. The suggestion that Muslims have no proven success to interact well outside their community is a vague statement that stands no where. The answer is in the offices, the public transportation, soon the open houses where Muslims and non-Muslims will interact and everywhere else where people converge we see Muslims interacting with non-Muslims and this successfully. Even in the question of shares, Muslims seem to have billions in shares with non-Muslim companies. That is a form of successful interaction.

If by interaction and successful one you mean Muslims must sprawl their wives naked on some beaches alongside the hippies and derelicts of some kind, then my friend that is asking too much. You definitely know the nature of Islam and of the Muslims so do not ask for things that can only happen in your dreams.

Hawaichee wrote:
(I am not being bias, but is open to hearing about how Islam can face modernity.)

Hear it here friend. From Dubai to Malaysia and passing by Saudi Arabia, Muslims have proven they can build the future with a modern approach. Where some concessions are to be made, they did make it and where they had to say no to certain extremes of modernism, they said no. If you are living in Malaysia you should know that Islam and modernity goes like a pair. Muslim women wearing the tudung are running corporations. Muslim men wearing turbans are also running states. Another Muslim leader in the person of AAB is running Malaysia, a country considered to be on the fast track of modernity but is still and will still be for a long time to come, a Muslim nation, whether the hater's of Islam like it or not.

In Dubai modernity is widespread. It is even more widespread than Malaysia and the best part is that it is an emirate which is run by one man. It is a one man show that needs no democracy or dictatorship to succeed. An emirate run like a nation under Islamic rule should be, that is what the UAE, Qatar, Oman and so on are. These countries are modern and are successful. Malaysians are awed by the success rate of these tiny pieces of land in the Arabian seas.

Now what modernity are you talking about? That Muslims leave Islam and call themselves Christians or join Bhudhism or confusionism or even some sai baba gang then you will say that Islam has adopted modernity? Why is it that you people are so thirsty to see Islam embrace other thinking or faith that are magnetically in different polarization? Why should Islam change to please a hawaichee or a Bush or even a Ling Lion Sek? Why don't you all change your attitude and thinking, be wiser and learn more about Islam by reading and understanding rather than sitting behind the keyboard at home or office and 'maki' Muslims and so on by showing obvious traits of ignorance?

Haiwachee said:

The Muslim world need to evolve swiftly and unity else it will not face the test of globalisation.

What is there with globalization for Muslims to evolve and to adapt to it? I doubt that the much hyped globalization will materialize. What will happen in the long run is that the non-Muslim world will have to accept that Muslims are who they are and they have to interact with the Muslims the way the Muslims wishes it. Just like if you go to the Amazon you will have to accept the fact that there, the people are not dressed like Micheal Jackson or Osama Bin Laden but they are half naked if not fully naked. You cannot go and tell them to wear pants and bras just to please you, a visitor who has nothing else to do there. That is your Island that you mentionned in your post.
21/10 21:27:34
alicar wrote:
Haiwachee said:

The Muslim community hold a tight briddle on their fellow believers. These are against the policies of freedom and democracy. Is this justified?
Definitely this is justified and if some people outside the Islamic world does not like it, so be it. Do you want to contract G. Bush to wage wars against the Muslims because they hold a tight briddle on their members? Go ahead and then blame the Muslims for reacting violently when they kick back and raise the toll of American soldiers (mercenaries to say) deaths every where across the globe. Is that what you are thinking about?
I would ask you this: Why does the US for example has rules that does not allow an American to betray their country, their nation? This will be called treachery. Why? Is it not democratic to allow anyone to think and do what they want? Is it not democratic to respect the right of others? Is it not against the Human Rights of the so called traitor to punish him for being anti-American? Or is it that America and the West and Haiwachee can apply certain rules for themselves - that is condemn all those who are anti-democratic and anti-West or anti-American as traitors while Muslims cannot apply the same rules to their fellow believers? Is that not another form of ostracism and hypocrisy that is so blunt it smack your face real good?


Haiwachee wrote:

(Few are willing to reason because they either are ignorant about the right answers from the Al-Quran, or they fear there are no answers from Al-Quran and the religion has yet to evolve to respond to the world outside them....)

We already have our lands of our own, now part of it is under the colonial powers of America and the UK (Re- Iraq, Afghanistan and do not forget Palestine). The question is why take our land? Why kill us to try to change us? Get lost and go live on your own lands. If that is said to the Chinese and Indians here in Malaysia they wail and yell that is not how it should be and bla bla bla. The ignorant is you non-Muslims.

Is it not pretentious to claim that you are democratic and you respect human rights while you are planning to change Islam for us? You are forcing us to change to please your whims and fancies? You are deciding for us Muslims that we should change to accommodate the non-Muslim world? Is it not a blatant interference in the affairs of Islam?

What if we Muslims tell you non-Muslims to change, to abandon the superstitious beliefs that you have and to adopt Islamic principles? You will all cry foul and seek revenge by plotting some macabre stuff like urging all your men to sleep with Muslim women to make haram babies etc etc...Is your game not widely known by us Muslims?

The Muslims will kick the US and UK out of these countries and lastly the Jews will pay the price of their murderous rule of the Palestinian land. That will be justice! And globalization, the fake theory that the West is dangling in your face, will not stop that.

Muslims who knows the answer have already given the answers to your queries. You are the one, once again, like Raja Petra mentionned earlier who is not willing to accept the answers. As if, you are an expert on Islam and globalization so you refuse to admit that you have heard the answers which are answers that you do not want. You wished you heard the Muslims say to you that the Quraan says the Muslims can drink wine, eat pork and shag around all day long then you will probably take a deep breath and die in front of your keyboard, unaware that you were actually betrayed in believing what you wanted to hear!

Come on, get real. You are weighing the 'gold' of Islam by the actions of some silly Muslim dude's, male or female, who are doing exactly what you want. That is sleep around, drink alcohol and eat haram. The actions of these Muslims - called Munafiq and Fasiq - in Islam, does not engage Islam, which is a pure faith and a great modern way of living.

Again, I would suggest you go learn and read more about Islam. Then find the Muslims who can beat you in your confusion. Then probably you will appreciate your freedom of being in Malaysia as a non-Muslims and being able to bang2 the Muslims in forums. You must also say thanks to AAB, the poor man whom you are trying to demonise, for this freedom that you have now.

Chao Pantin!
21/10 21:28:00
Anak Bumi wrote:
TYPO ERROR,

Dont just talk ONLY about reality, zahir etc. when you can't see 'intention' with your eyes!

Salam.
21/10 21:37:11
hawaiichee wrote:
Foreigner in KL and others

Thanks for pointing out to what RPK said about me. After rereading his last paragraph, I realised he has to retract his statement about me.

Raja Petra,

Please retract your statement against me

"you are violently opposed to Islam"

I am not VIOLENTLY OPPOSED to Islam. I can not be sure if I am open enough. No one knows. I believe I am always open and objective, but the mind is deceitful. No one in this whole world can say they are fully objective always but we can only strive. But I am certainly not violently opposted to Islam. Please provide examples in any of my postings in this whole website else please apologise to me and retract your statement.

All,

I wanted to raise this because I realised that in Malaysia, non Muslims are not VIOLENTLY OPPOSED to Islam. But, interestingly more percentage of Muslims are VIOLENTLY OPPOSED to other religions. Tell me why is this so? Is it the problem with education or with personality of these Muslims? Why do the non-Muslims in Malaysia have a lesser orientation to be VIOLENTLY OPPOSED to other religions?

Now, is this an area that the Muslim community need to improve on and grow with modernity? This is one area of interaction with the non Muslim community that the Muslim community needs to improve on that I mentioned about, dear alicar.

Other areas - the unity to define what the Muslim world really stands for. In Malaysia, we are unsure if the Muslim community are:

1. Against wishing Happy Deepavali to non Muslims.

(I am glad our Prime Minister made a stand on it that Muslims should make such wishes. But, I have yet to see every Islamic organization coming out to make a statement that they too believe the same. Why did PAS not make such a statement? Why did more ulamas not make a statement? Can you imagine what this can do to Islam and how a bad image can be made used of to change it into a good image when all Muslim organizations stand together to tell Muslims that they can wish Happy Deepavali. Or this will not happen? Maybe not every Muslim in Malaysia agree that it is not syirik to wish non Muslims Happy Deepavali? Should the Muslim community evolve?

2. supports Freedom to leave Islam without threats of killing. (condemnation understandable).

I have previously challenged Raja Petra to put up a banner on his main website page based on his stand that he so clearly wrote on the comments section

(Raja Petra wrote:
The Federal Constitution of Malaysia does not restrict freedom of religion and Malaysia follows that Constitution and not Hudud laws. There is no provision in Malaysian laws to kill murtads. There is also no mention in the Quran that murtads should be killed.)

and I was willing to donate to improve the image of Islam as a peaceful religion being a non Muslim myself.

I challenged Raja Petra to put up this banner.

"Malaysia-Today stands by the truth that Islam is a peaceful religion. We object to the execution of apostates as this is not in the Al-Quran and is unConstitutional."
I said such banners will be good to educate the Muslims as well as the non Muslims who visit this website and imagine all the good that can arrive to Malaysia with the image of Islam improve. I am wanting to be a shareholder of this good deed.

Raja Petra declined for reasons he did not state and I respect his decision since he is the owner of this blog.

But, I have not seen other Muslim organizations who are bold to come up with such statements to improve the image of Islam and to educate both Muslims and non Muslims towards peace and non violence.

Let us all work together to improve the image of Malaysia. Muslims and non Muslims alike have this burden in us to contribute towards a better Malaysia. Islam being the official religion of the country bears its image to all. And more importantly, we need to continue to decide the course of Malaysia - should we head towards peace or should we adopt some extremist Muslim views of non diplomacy with the non Muslim world.

What say you, Malaysian? You have a duty as a Malaysian to decide the course for this country for you and your children. Do you want peace or war?

What should be Malaysia's foreign policy towards non Muslim countries? This is related to the topic of this blog if we want to criticise DSAI (Dr Seri Anwar Ibrahim) of his diplomacy with the West. Otherwise, I see no reason not to support this motion and have 1 less issue against DSAI.
21/10 23:03:55
hawaiichee wrote:
Now on Globalisation.

Dear Alicar

I believe in the coming decades the world will continue to converge. A simple point is to see the increase in travelling abroad. A makcik selling kuih can even now save enough to do her Haj and be exposed to the way other Muslims worship at Mecca. Certainly, we can see the exponentially increase in this past decade of Haj performance in Malaysia alone. Now, have you checked flight travel around the world for all other purposes? September 11 has not deterred globalisation and travelling abroad. So how can you doubt the much hyped globalization will never materialize?

The only thing you can doubt is whether Malaysia will ever be a global player in this world economy. If we continue to have NEP (which is also mentioned in this article written by Ali Cordoba) and adopt uncompetitiveness, we may actually lose out in this globalisation trend, and end up living in a closed world and soon be happy being sanctioned upon or at least be happy living with the little that we can afford to live by.

Now, let us cut the debate short to this conclusion. I believe when 2 or more people come together, everyone needs to make compromises. If you marry your wife, you do not expect just your wife to change, but you also have to change a bit. Similarly, when the whole world comes together and you do not work for just the Malaysian Government or MARA, but work with international projects, you have to compromise with each other to decide what is the best way to work together.

Have you worked in an international project? I am sure many of our readers here have and they know that different nationalities work differently. Especially if you work outside Malaysia, these differences are clearer. Each one has to compromise.

Now, the question is of all the religions of the world, why does Islam or rather Muslim organizations stand out as a sore thumb? Is it because the other religions compromise for modernity to allow humans to adapt better with the world or their religions have better answers?

Or is it because Islam/those Muslim organizations are the first that the "West" is targetting before they imperialise the Buddhist religion and the Hindu religion? Common, I am at least trying to be objective here. But why Islam/those Muslim organizations are targetted first by the West?
21/10 23:20:00
proarte wrote:
Once you bring in religion into the political domain, you can argue till the cows come home and still not reach a consensus.

There has been so much division in the Muslim world, even from the very beginning.The history of Islam is bathed is the sea of blood. This is not surprising when one of the modus operandi of spreading the new faith was violence and killing. The Koran is replete with passages with specific references to violence:

Koran Muhammed:
47: 5. And when you meet in regular battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks; and, when you have overcome them, by causing great slaughter among them, bind fast the fetters - then afterwards either release them as a favour or by taking ransom - until the war lays down its burdens. That is the ordinance. And if Allah had so pleased, He could have punished them Himself, but He has willed that He may try some of you by others. And those who are killed in the way of Allah - He will never render their works vain.

Sunnis and Shis kill each other today in the same way their founding fathers killed each other for control of the nascent Muslim community. Both warring factions claiming to have Allah's guidance. Who is right? We will never know. Similarly, we will never know if Hinduism,, Christianity, Atheism, Islam Judasim, Buddhism or Animism has got it right.Can only one be right or are they all right or are they all wrong? Only God knows assuming there is such a Being.

It should be logical then that a political system which is based on dogma i.e religion, does not lend itself to debate and reason. How does one debate with God? Furthermore, in a plural soceity such as Malaysia, political Islam will be a force of division.

Secularism is a threat to political Islam because it takes away power from people who have taken it upon themselves to speak on behalf of Allah, and as a result wield undue influence over the vast majority of Muslims who are mostly uneducated over Islamic matters. Religion is a personal matter between an individual and God. The problem with political Islam is that the powers that be want to play God.

Muslim Malays should instead focus on good governance. Truth, Justice, Compassion, Kindness, Love are values which will bind communities together, they also are religious values common to all religions. I don't think Atheists amd Agnostics will have a problem with those values as well. Let us focus on things which matter.

Why are Muslims focusing on things which divide us? How does that make you a better Muslim? It seems to me you will be closer to achieving Islamic values by not politicising Islam than by doing so.

Malaysians have observed the inexorable creeping of Islam into the political domain in Malaysia, to the extent that the former utterly corrupt Muslim leader Tun Mahathir could declare Malaysia illegally to be an Islamic State. Now ask any non-Muslim whether they feel Malays are a more moral people now than compared to 30 years ago, when they were less outwardly Islamic, and the resounding answer will be NO! Any honest Malay will admit that 'Islamisation' of their society by political forces has not brought any tangible moral benefits.

Many in fact will argue that 'Islamisation' has been a negative factor because it has been used as a cloak to cover up moral decadence. Islamisation has even divided Malay society, UMNO being the proponents of Islam Hadhari and PAS being the proponents of Sunni Wahabism. Of course there is no sincerity by UMNO or PAS in either beliefs because it will change according to circumstance and political realities.

The beneficiaries are the elites who fight to the be 'guardians' of the Islamic faith in order to control the masses. The Malay is to be kept ignorant, insecure and uneducated so he or she can be manipulated by UMNO or PAS. Bastardisation of Islam is not a factor these elites consider at all. Malays sadly are willing and hapless pawns, true to their feudally minded character.
21/10 23:39:38
banjaran wrote:
Rickteo -pleaselah. Don't go around challenging the owner of this blog to do this or that. It's not polite. You sound very childish indeed - like a primary school kid at the playground during recess. And the way you put your religion out like a bet is most embarrasing to say the least.
22/10 02:20:50
banjaran wrote:
Alicar - don't be so sure Malaysia is on the fast track to modernity. Compared to our Asian neighbours, I'd say we are on the slow track. And even then, be careful not to trumpet Malaysia's achievements as Muslim achievements. It is a collective effort by both Muslims and non-Muslims.

As for Dubai, it is a city built with western technology and Arab money. Nothing more.

You go on and on about pork, wine, gambling etc and think that's all non-Muslims are about. That really shows how ignorant you are. There is so much more to the non-Muslim world than that. As for ex-Muslims committing treason, exactly how did they commit treason because they no longer believe in Islam? And what do you want to do? Do you want to force them to believe in Islam? Can you open their heart and see what's inside? Would you rather they live as hypocrites?
22/10 02:33:20
Imran Chicago wrote:
Anwar has clearly voiced out his condemnation of anti-democratic US foreing policies. I thus see no relevance to what Ali Cordoba wrote.
22/10 02:57:40
alicar wrote:
Wasalam All

Hawaichee...

Xcellent commentaries. Thanks.

Lets be fair to say that we do not know what Malaysia will do in the future and in the globalization thingy. We can only guess or if we sit and analyze, we can come to some conclusions that may be acceptable to some but not to all.

We all know global world as under the WTO is a mode to secure more barriers for the WEST- EU - USA - el al. The smaller, poorer nations will not benefit. Example: The Association of Carabian and Pacific (ACP) has made billions of losses since last year with the EU - a massive promoter of WTO - Global Village - arbitrarily reduced the price of Sugar produced by ACP by 35 percent at least. It was done without any prior negotiations with the ACP and was just announced one fine morning that the ACP will be loosing so much since the EU decided it was not willing to continue an agreed principle and signed protocol called the ACP-EU protocal (which dates decades ago and was a form of economic guarantee by the EU after their member nations freed the ACP from colonialism). The issue is this, the EU took the law in its own hands and dictated the 'freed' nations of the ACP on its economic policy that has invariably now affected the lives millions of innocent people. That is what I mean by the hyped globalization. If Malaysia is not careful, it will be swallowed or it will be dismembered and torn down by such dictatorial acts by the EU-USA etc.

There is no harm in having the NEP in a so called global world. The EU too practices a form of NEP in certain industries, not withstanding the discriminations they practice in many regards. For example, the EU does not allow certain goods say from Malaysia or Japan (Cars is an example) to be sold at lesser price than European made cars in ACP nations. This is a form of NEP to protect the White Man's car industry.

This type of policy will not dissappear under the global hype. Why? Coz no one will be able to fight them white man. Not even Malaysia or Mauritius or Suriname, or even Japan. So much for global world eh?

I have worked for international agencies. I have brushed shoulders with the white man in my line of business. I have learned a lot in the way they do this business and have also taught them a lot in my way of doing the business. Fair and square.

We continue later...
22/10 04:30:16
alicar wrote:
Continue from above...

Instead of knowtowing to the West and embrace their democracy (which is now becoming a prerequisite to join the global club), Anwar and other local politicians would do better to think of an association of Malaysia-ACP-(NAM?) call it (MAN) of sort to secure one to one deals with the WTO (which is the headquarters of the White man).

I am not saying that we have to totally reject democracy but then friend, do not force us to reduce our faith and our Islam to rubbles just for the sake of willingly bowing into a new form of colonialism with the same damn white men!

There is a lot to explain when it comes to Malaysia and global world. Not enough time frame. Maybe we continue later.

In the mean time, do not forget (again that will raise the ire of the non-believers in Islam) that Islam is a global faith, system of economy and of organizational society, while it is purely borderless and that is why Muslims defends Islam to their death!

Wasalam
22/10 04:35:43
alicar wrote:
Imran Chicago wrote:
Anwar has clearly voiced out his condemnation of anti-democratic US foreing policies. I thus see no relevance to what Ali Cordoba wrote.

Thanks but friend, Anwar cannot go on voice out anti-democratic uS policies and praise democratic US policies at the same time. Which is which? There is full lucidity in the article we are discussing here.

So long..
22/10 04:38:35
alicar wrote:
aliimran911

I will get back to u as soon as Allah wills.

For the time being,

Selamat Hari Raya to all

Happy belated Anniversary to Malaysia Today
22/10 04:39:57
puchongintan wrote:
The comments by some of the non-muslims that the performing of the obligatory prayers by muslim employees will reduce productivity and performance are blasphemous and provocative.

I am working in a reputable construction company. All our muslim employees (HQ and site office) pray within the alloted times and certainly, our company's success is sheer testimony.
22/10 05:49:15
Imran Chicago wrote:
History might repeat itself. Anwar entered UMNO to reform it. Failed. Now he's trying to reform Western politics. Failure?
22/10 05:51:20
alicar wrote:
to Aliimran911 Reply to your challenge!

On Disbelievers and Hypocrytes

[8] Surah Al-Anfal (12)
(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, ”Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.”

[2] Surah Al-Baqara (217)
They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). Say, ”Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.”
[9] Surah At-Taubah(66 )

Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were Mujriműn (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, criminals, etc.).

Now...what else?
So make no excuse forumwalla, it is clear that if you are an apostate (who believed and then disbelieved) you will be punished because you are a Mujrimum (disbeliever - apostate, sinner, criminal etc)

Its simple to understand this ayat. For example, if Raja Petra says one day that anyone who does not toe to his line in the forums will be reported (punished) to the authorities for due punishment,does it not sound like if one does not believe in the rules imposed, in the system to follow, the person is repudiated and punished (by the authorities?)

One more example that we can make is if your father tells you if you do not follow his rules (which is what Islam is about - rules to follow, to abide to) you will be castrated, then you do not follow the rules and you say oh its my right not to follow but your dad still castrates you coz you violated his covenant, contract with him. Is it not clear that transgressors are always punished? Allah maintains in many occasions in the Holy Al Quraan that once you believe in Islam and then you do not believe, you will be punished. That clearly means (unless your brain is frozen by Satan) there is no way you can leave this covenant once you have said your belief in the Kalima Shahadat. You cannot renounce on the Kalima Shahadat, this is what the Quraan is saying.

Now you will - in all your egoistic, sombong and bangang attitude of know all - say to me that am not satisfying you with the reply. But then, the Quraan is also full of statements about people like you, transgressors of a certain level called Munafiq and Fasiq (which the Quraan says is a form of apostasy that can still be forgiven)

Yours and now I wait for your lies and your state of denial!

Hence the Quraan did say in tens of places that once you believe in the covenant of the Kalima Shahadat, you cannot disbelieve in it less you are punished by man or by HIM.

Hence the statement is there: No one can enter Islam and leave it just like that, without going through the process of punishment in this life or in the hereafter. go to http://www.quraanshareef.or...
to read it in arabic.

Wasalam dudh (susu)
22/10 05:59:54
Raja Petra wrote:
Aiyoh, what happened to the article on Anwar Ibrahim? That's the trouble when everyone's an ulamak.
22/10 07:08:20
Raja Petra wrote:
I already posted a special section on religion hoping that everyone can let off steam there and not 'contaminate' the other blogs with too much religious talk.
22/10 07:10:33
flex tan wrote:
HI YOH,...WHAT IS WRONG WITH ISLAM AND MUSLIMS???
HADITH IS HISTORY OF ISLAM...HOW CAN MUSLIM DENIE IT!

LIKE MAT KILAU THE PER-BERONTAK..NOW HE IS THE HERO. MANA BOLEH???

ANUAR THE HOMO...IN THE FUTURE, WILL HE BE THE IDEAL MALAY??? BOLEH TUKAR KAH???
22/10 10:12:35
flex tan wrote:
NOR WONDER THE CONFUSION.....
22/10 10:13:56
aliimran911 wrote:
Alicar, may peace be upon you,

1 of 2

>>On Disbelievers and Hypocrytes>>

I am born a sunni, which to me is noting more than an Arab-based stone worshipping religion. And if I decided to disbelieve such stupid religion, am I a hypocrite in your definition? Is this your definition of hypocrite? And who is bodoh sombong now? 

Now let’s look at the verses quoted by you:

>>[8] Surah Al-Anfal (12)
(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, ”Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.”>>

So if this verse is looked at in its entirety as killing the disbelievers and hypocrites, there are still about 10 millions Malaysians who disbelieve in your stupid religion now; have you started to kill them yet wherever you met them? If you have not, you are also a disbeliever of your religion per your definition and also liable to be killed per your understanding.

If you look at the verse closely, there’s no where in the verse asking you to kill any body. But if you look at the context of the verse, a few verses before and after, you will realize that it’s not about killing apostates at all.

>>[2] Surah Al-Baqara (217)
They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). Say, ”Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.”
[9] Surah At-Taubah(66 )>>

Again, contextually, the above verses talk about in the state of war; of course during war you can kill your enemy, not just the apostates, but subject to the law of war which is also stated in the Quran. The verses are not about searching for the apostates and kill them. The Quran doesn’t support inquisition, you idiot. You are an embarrassment even to a sunni.

I’m really not very sure who is bodoh sombong now.

>> Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were Mujriműn (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, criminals, etc.). >>

Of course God will punish disbelievers in hereafter, but he never delegated the job to you to kill anybody, you Mr. Bloodthirsty 

>>Now...what else?
So make no excuse forumwalla, it is clear that if you are an apostate (who believed and then disbelieved) you will be punished because you are a Mujrimum (disbeliever - apostate, sinner, criminal etc)>>

Whether I’m a believer or not is between me and God; it’s none of your bloody business.
22/10 14:38:42
aliimran911 wrote:
Alicar, may peace be upon you,

2 of 2
>>Its simple to understand this ayat. For example, if Raja Petra says one day that anyone who does not toe to his line in the forums will be reported (punished) to the authorities for due punishment,does it not sound like if one does not believe in the rules imposed, in the system to follow, the person is repudiated and punished (by the authorities?)>>

Agreed, it’s for RPK to punish. But did he ever delegate the punishment part to a mere kuching kurap mortal like you? I have not seen anywhere in MT rules and regulations? Where is your logic Mr. Licker of Anwar Ass Hole?

>>One more example that we can make is if your father tells you if you do not follow his rules (which is what Islam is about - rules to follow, to abide to) you will be castrated, then you do not follow the rules and you say oh its my right not to follow but your dad still castrates you coz you violated his covenant, contract with him. Is it not clear that transgressors are always punished? Allah maintains in many occasions in the Holy Al Quraan that once you believe in Islam and then you do not believe, you will be punished. That clearly means (unless your brain is frozen by Satan) there is no way you can leave this covenant once you have said your belief in the Kalima Shahadat. You cannot renounce on the Kalima Shahadat, this is what the Quraan is saying.>>

A same stupid analogy as above.

>>Now you will - in all your egoistic, sombong and bangang attitude of know all - say to me that am not satisfying you with the reply. But then, the Quraan is also full of statements about people like you, transgressors of a certain level called Munafiq and Fasiq (which the Quraan says is a form of apostasy that can still be forgiven)>>

Let’s be specific, and stop rambling.

>>Yours and now I wait for your lies and your state of denial!>>

??

>>Hence the Quraan did say in tens of places that once you believe in the covenant of the Kalima Shahadat, you cannot disbelieve in it less you are punished by man or by HIM.>>

Bull shit. Please study 2:256 and 4:317 thoroughly first before opening your mouth on the subject next time.

>>Hence the statement is there: No one can enter Islam and leave it just like that, without going through the process of punishment in this life or in the hereafter. go to http://www.quraanshareef.or...
to read it in arabic.>>

The stone worshipping religion has deceived you beyond repair.

A.
22/10 14:40:05
muftimurtad2006 wrote:
ALICAR WHAT A LOAD OF BLOODTHIRSTY CRAP. WHY THE F--K DO you crazies want to kill people so much ?

If what you say is true, then it is you who must be killed because obviously you are an apostate. Unles you were born and brought up this way which makes you a disbeliever - a non Muslim.
ERR KAWAN EXCUSE ME BUT PLEASE QUOTE THE WHOLE CONTEXT OF the verse OK.

You have misquoted Surah Al Anfal. FYI Anfal is taken to mean war booty. The Spoils of war. The surah is about war. Not punishment of apostates.

Please look at the verses before and after what u quoted. Here are some of them :

SHAKIR: And when Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers. 8:7
SHAKIR: When you sought aid from your Lord, so He answered you: I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another 8 : 9

SHAKIR: And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise
8 : 10

SHAKIR: When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby 8 : 11

(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, ”Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.” 8 : 12

There is no killing of apostates. This is fighting a war with disbelievers.

Then you quote Baqarah 217 :

[2] Surah Al-Baqara (217)
They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar). Say, ”Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islâmic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.”
[9] Surah At-Taubah(66 )

ERR ALICAR PLEASE READ WHAT U WRITE. YOU QUOTE :

"And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter,"

SO THERE YOU ARE ! U can disbelieve if u want to. Its your freedom of choice. There is no punishment for apostasy. But if you die in apostasy then there is no forgiveness FROM GOD for you.

Where does it say that the apostate shall be punished by any human beings with stoning to death, castration etc ?

When you go around creating crap like this and blaming it in Islam, you become an apostate, a kuffr, a disbeliever. Be careful.

The punishment of apostates is an evil idea stolen from the Bible. It is a Biblical teaching and NOT an Islamic teaching. The prophet never punished anyone for apostasy. You tell lies.

How then do you explain this verse from the Quran :

SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path 4:137

It looks like here you can believe, disbelieve, believe then disbelieve again. In and out. You must be alive to be able to do all this.

If according to you, the apostate must be killed the moment he apostates, how then can he move in and out of belief FOUR TIMES. Aiyo brother - boleh explain kah ? Also AGAIN - ONE MORE TIME - no punishment is prescribed for these apostates other than God will not forgive them.
22/10 14:42:05
Website - http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/corridors.php?itemid=226

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