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Date Posted: 07:09:11 02/19/08 Tue
Author: Catie
Author Host/IP: h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net / 71.28.8.78
Subject: Re: More misconceptions--and again :)
In reply to:
Joan
's message, "Re: More misconceptions--and again :)" on 05:59:23 02/19/08 Tue
"We ask Mary and other saints (why Mary is singled out, and no one seems to mind that we ask St Michael the Archangel for assistance every Sunday, I don't know. :)) to pray for us, because of the communion of saints. There is no break in God's church. There is communion between the saints in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth. We have statues and pictures of Mary for the same reason we have pictures of family. We have relics of saints for the same reason we have keepsakes of out deceased relatives (My teddy bear is being made from my father's uniform shirt--can't wait to get it!)." "Are you willing to accept that, or will you continue to decide that Catholics believe something that they don't?"
I have my bear too, and think of Terry when I see it. I keep it in a safe place and laugh and cry when I recall him wearing that shirt. But it's just an object, nothing more. I don't make an issue of it being Terry's shirt.
Joan, your own words just said "We ask Mary to pray for us..." "We ask angels for assistance." What I do accept is that way is part of YOUR belief as a Catholic. So be it. As I said, to each his own belief. Some believe one way, some the other. But No I don't accept it as being biblical, according to what I believe, according to what I read it is not correct to believe that way. So Of course we will not come to terms as in agreeing obviously. :) We can but agree to disagree I think at this point. As I stated in an previous post, only God, Christ is to be prayed TO. Mary is not anywhere she can hear your prayers. Angels obey God, not man.
"(why Mary is singled out, and no one seems to mind that we ask St Michael the Archangel for assistance every Sunday, I don't know. :)) "
Angels as intercessors? No. I would never pray to Michael, or any angel nor ask for their assistance. God is the one I pray to, Christ is the one who died in our place, he is the only one who holds that position and is worthy as an intercessor. He knows how to direct and instruct his angels as to what to do. :) They obey God and do his work, not mans. Further more we differ as I said earlier, in that I would never ask ANYONE who has died such as Peter, Or Paul, to inerceded for me. They are all dead in the ground. They have not arrived in heaven yet so therefore they can't hear my prayers. I find nothing in scripture that tells me otherwise.
I have my way of believing and you have yours. You think I am wrong and vice versa. I am not condemning, just sharing. :)
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Re: More misconceptions--and again :) -- Joan, 16:09:52 02/19/08 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
I don't object to your different beliefs, of course. But when you say that Catholics worship Mary, and you've been told we don't, that I object to.
You *think* we worship Mary, but you are wrong.
I don't know why you believe these things. Perhaps it has something to do with what your church teaches you about Catholicism. Perhaps it's just that you see things but haven't studied them, and so you don't know what it's all about.
You insistance that I don't know my own religion thought, is baffling. Why do you think you know what Catholics believe and I don't? :)
If you want to know what Catholics believe, you can get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Or you can find it (the CCC) online.
You won't find anything in it on worshiping Mary, because we don't, but you will find a plethera of information on Mary and the Catholic Church.
"No I don't accept it as being biblical,"
And of course the Catholic Bible is a little longer than the later Protestant version. So we'll never agree on exactly what is Biblical and what isn't. We won't agree on what the Bible *is*. lol
Joan
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Joan -- Catie, 18:27:41 02/19/08 Tue [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
"I don't know why you believe these things. Perhaps it has something to do with what your church teaches you about Catholicism. Perhaps it's just that you see things but haven't studied them, and so you don't know what it's all about...You insistance that I don't know my own religion thought, is baffling. Why do you think you know what Catholics believe and I don't? :) "
I don't insist nor would I even consider knowing more about your religion than you. That would be arrogant not to mention silly. Also I am not trying to "bash" your religion or make up things that aren't there.
When you stated that Catholics ask Mary to Pray and intercede, means you think of Mary as having some sort of "holy power". Why? Because she is not alive. But If she were alive, living today and you asked her to pray for you, it would be different. But seeing that she has died, and -as it was once stated here, believes she sits near or at God's throne to "intercede" it would appear to me that she is viewed as someone who is bigger than life, something akin to diety. Afterall, "The throne of God" is a most Holy place. Don't we as Christians generally "pray to diety?" Since Mary is dead and you are asking her to pray for you, then it seems you are praying TO HER when you ask that. That is what makes it seem to me at least that you are praying to and worshiping Mary. I don't think I've misunderstood that you said those things, right? -If so I apologize.
Perhaps what it comes down to is terminology? What you practice, praying to ask her assistance, feeling she is at God's side, is what I equate to "worshiping". Our prayers that go "up" should go to God alone. :) Anyway, it seems our main division might then be in our terminology.
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Mary and bears -- Joan, 05:39:06 02/20/08 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
"When you stated that Catholics ask Mary to Pray and intercede, means you think of Mary as having some sort of "holy power". Why?"
I guess I have to ask you why you ask others to pray for you. Do you think that your friends have some sort of "holy power"? Why do you ask someone else to pray for you? Doesn't God already know what you need? Do you doubt the power of your own prayer? Why ask someone else to pray for you?
I ask Mary to pray for me, because she *is* alive in Heaven. All the saints in Heaven are more alive than we are. Since we believe in the communion of saints--all of us, not just the comparatively few saints who happen to be on Earth today--we can ask any saint to pray for us. Why? For the same reasons you ask a more limited number of saints to pray for you.
We don't believe that Mary can pray for us, just as any other saint can pray for us.
"Since Mary is dead"
And here we disagree. :) I believe in life after death. I believe that Mary is alive in Heaven, more alive than we are. Life doesn't end at Earthly death. And it's not on hold, as if in suspended animation.
"Since Mary is dead and you are asking her to pray for you, then it seems you are praying TO HER when you ask that. That is what makes it seem to me at least that you are praying to and worshiping Mary. I don't think I've misunderstood that you said those things, right? "
No. You are saying that Mary is dead, that we worship her, and that we are praying to her as we pray to God.
I am saying that Mary is alive in Heaven, that we ask her to pray for us, because we believe in the communion of saints (all of us), and that we do *not* worship Mary as we worship God. We do not worship Mary at all. Mary is revered and is very special, since she is the mother of God. But as special as that is, Mary is not God. Worship is something reserve only for God.
Joan
PS: How big is your shirt bear? My sister is getting a larger one, and I'm getting a smaller version. Did you have yours embroidered w/ Terry's name?
Joan
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Oh Joan -- Catie, 08:02:26 02/20/08 Wed [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)
please don't ask me anything to do with numbers or measurements. Unless it's written out for me.
i.e.: I know how far I live from Atlanta cause the sign says so, (Atlanta 88 miles at exit I-75) otherwise I have no clue. I'm pathetically & completely right brained! :) I
It's a medium size bear I think. :) Not too small, not too large. I didn't think of having any of them embroidered. (I bought 5) That would have been a wonderful thing to have done. Are you pleased with yours?
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I don't have mine yet. -- Joan, 10:37:40 02/20/08 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)
It's going to have my father's name on one foot--LT Clancy--and a copy of his firefighter's patch on the other foot.
The buttons from his shirt will be on its stomach.
The shirt is a khaki color, so I'm not sure that it will be very cute. Who ever heard of a dull khaki teddy bear? lol But I'll treasure it of course.
It's funny how conversations get your mind running. I was thinking of Saints' relics. The pieces of robes and stuff like that never bothered me. But things like peices of bone? OK, that's weird. Then I though, is it any weirder than the collection of baby teeth I have fossilizing in my top bureau drawer? Or the lock of baby hair? lol
Do you have your kids' teeth or locks of their baby hair?
Joan
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Joan, your bear will be perfect! :-)................ -- Barb, 14:50:01 02/20/08 Wed [1] (clgrtnt2-port-112.dial.telus.net/161.184.42.112)
I have small locks of my kid's hair in their baby books...and believe it or not, I have an envelope of my own curls that my mom kept from a haircut I had at 3 years. Curls...lovely soft, shiny curls...but no more. Ah well. :-/
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