I would like to see at least 5-6 judges at large nationals with the lowest score dropped! Too often it's the opinion of one judge that sets the winners. NAM uses 6-8 and averages which is another great way to handle it. We can complain all we want but until you have the opinion of the majority, it's not a representative opinion. -- PARENTS FOR FAIR PAGEANTS CLUB

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Date Posted: 05:15:50 10/19/07 Fri
Author: Anonymous
Subject: I would like to see at least 5-6 judges at large nationals with the lowest score dropped! Too often it's the opinion of one judge that sets the winners. NAM uses 6-8 and averages which is another great way to handle it. We can complain all we want but until you have the opinion of the majority, it's not a representative opinion.

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[> I am surprized no one has commented on this. You complain about the judges and COI and here is a way to manage it. Support pageants that practice safe judging!! -- Anonymous, 09:27:33 10/22/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> Your right. We will add this to our list of rules. -- Anonymous, 09:29:46 10/22/07 Mon [1]

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[> MAO has dropped the HIGEST AND THE LOWEST scores for years. That way no one can play favorites either way! That's "perfect" -- have 5 judges and drop 2 scores. Works great! -- Anonymous, 14:24:45 10/22/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> We drop the highest and lowest at ours. The last pageant we held we had a judge not show and announced prior to the pageant that we would only drop the lowest. -- Anonymous, 14:29:31 10/22/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> [> I understand that sometimes judges don't show but if you drop only the low scores a single judges could still his/her favorite contestants high and it'd still throw off the overall placement. IMO if a judge doesn't show and you don't have enuf to drop BOTH hi and low "averaging" scores would be better than dropping just low scores. -- Anonymous, 09:00:17 10/24/07 Wed [1]

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[> [> [> [> Unfortunately that was not in our ppw, so we followed the ppw to the best of our ability. Its something I will definately think about adding to the ppw for the next pageant. Thanx -- Anonymous, 09:35:56 10/24/07 Wed [1]

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[> and how many PM's are willing to pay EXTRA for pageants to bring in 2 extra judges to pay for their rooms,meals, gas or plane tickets, etc... fees are high enough as it is. -- Anonymous, 09:13:52 10/25/07 Thu [1]

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[> I would be willing to accept less Bratz dolls at crowning in exchange for better judging systems. Again, these are just guidelines for pageants to follow in order to get the star. They are not obligated to do so. -- Anonymous, 09:18:56 10/25/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> Fees are higher because the directors are hiring production companys and mc's that cost them a fortune and they pass the cost on to the pageant moms. Personally I don't think they are necessary. -- Anonymous, 09:24:13 10/25/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> Personally I could do with out them for a cheaper entry fee. -- Anonymous, 09:25:30 10/25/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> I like the idea of a production company, if they would give you both photos and video all included. All the extras kill me. I have to pay $60 at Reg for a video of only our division, and no crowning (example from our last pageant with RL production). for $60 I should get every photo, including crowning, and the entire video! this is just another example of how they are overcharging for everything. And there isnt an MC around that I've seen that is worth the couple of thousand the two most popular ones are charging, I dont care what they do! I've hired MC's from our local radio station and they have more personality than those two! You have 50 contestants at $60.00 each, thats a guaranteed $3000 and thats not counting the ones that order stage shots! Its nuts! Directors please stop having this people there. Surely you can find better ways to spend our money! -- Anonymous, 11:33:09 10/25/07 Thu [1]

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[> They do have it made, because the director does not allow cameras in the ballroom so if you don't pay them you get no pictures at all from the pageant. Your forced to order from them no matter what they charge or do without. If they would allow videos and cameras it would be a big mess with everyone crowding to get pictures. The directors need to set fees for this and stop them from rapeing us. Everybody and their brother could do what they do at a decent price. -- Anonymous, 06:28:30 10/26/07 Fri [1]

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[> [> I totally agree with this one. My camera thakes some awesome pictures and I should be able to use it. There should not be and crowding because noone else will be wanting pictures of my DD. the only time there will be more than one or two taking pictures is at crowning and it is my kid so I should be able to take pictures. I shouldnt have to pay someone else to decide which pictures I will get. She is my daughter or someone elses daughter and noone else should make a profit from her pictures. I pay to put her in pageants and yes I can choose not to attend the ones with the rule that there be no cameras in the ballroom but it should not be an issue. They have already profitted off us by her being there so I should have the option to take my own pictures. -- Anonymous, 06:26:36 10/27/07 Sat [1]

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[> [> [> Some can't take their own pictures and so they want them there. The director makes that rule to accomodate the production company who overcharges us. OH GOD WHAT IS THE ANSWER? -- Anonymous, 07:22:15 10/27/07 Sat [1]

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[> [> [> Personally I like the director controlling the camera situation. God only knows what perv's will come in knowing they can take pics of the kids. Bad enough at prelims you can see your dd pop up on other kids' websites. One reason we don't do prelims anymore. We found my dd's pic on another childs' website and mom had hateful remarks across all the other kids in the photo standing next to her child in line up.We stopped doing banners as well as a precaution. -- Anonymous, 18:20:56 10/27/07 Sat [1]

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[> [> [> [> A post was removed. We understand what your saying, but please repost without using the name of a specific production company. It will become bashing. Thanks PFFPC -- Anonymous, 07:17:41 10/28/07 Sun [1]

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[> [> [> I do think they charge alot but the quality of the pics is so much better than what you can do your self plus they bring thier own lights to make the pics better too. -- Anonymous, 20:12:37 10/28/07 Sun [1]

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[> If everyone would boycott them one time they would lower their prices. Some directors are including it in the registration fees and that makes our entry fees go up. -- Anonymous, 07:23:05 10/28/07 Sun [1]

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[> [> I don't think mom's will ever agree on the "photography/video" debate. There are a few out there that do NOT charge and arm and a leg for the photos (videos I never buy, So I can't really comment). There are a lot out there that rip the mom's off. Some should not have a camera in their hands. I can only think of ONE pageant photographer that gives you all the images of the contestant, including backdrop, stage, group, ect AND gives you the copyright release with the disk. There might be more, but I don't know of any yet. The price I paid for the disk is totally worth it to me. I have even been able to take some of the headshots from that pageant and have it "enhanced" for other pageants and the portfolio. It really depends on what they offer. ALSO, we have to remember, a lot of directors need the professional for their website. If they have "mommy" shot photos, the web could be considered "unprofessional". So its not always about sticking it to the pocket book.... -- Anonymous, 04:57:25 10/29/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> [> really, with all that is going on in the ballroom, I'd rather pay attentoin to my dd than video taping. I would have no problem buying the video or pics as long as it;s a great price and I get to pick from all the pics taken and the video is the entire pageant all together. I'd like to be able to look at the older girls to help rep for next year -- Anonymous, 09:32:11 10/29/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> [> [> I agree with you but I should also have the choice to take my own pictures. Banning other cameras from the ballroom is another way to force us to buy their pictures and videos and the only reason that I can think of is that the system gets a percentage of all the monies the photographer brings in. -- Anonymous, 07:09:27 11/01/07 Thu [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> As a photographer I can tell you thats not true. Unless the director is overcharging in her registration fees. I supply contestants with reasonably priced video and stage photos simply because I was tired of seeing pms being taken advantage of. Compared to most mommy cameras I take better photos than they can and if its at a cheaper rate they will usually purchase them. When I edit a video I give each customer the entire video, not just division. I spend a lot of time editing and adding special touches such as credits that list the child and the title, as well as scene changes and a marquee that has their name on it when they are on stage. Stage shots are of every photo I take of the child, whether it is a group photo or optional. They get them all. I usually take over 2000 photos at a pageant and have never given less than 30 photos. The are on a disk with a copyright release so that they can be printed. -- Anonymous, 21:48:06 11/01/07 Thu [1]

I try to do everything I can to please my customers and have never had anyone be so disappointed they wanted a refund.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> You should email PFFP CLUB. We could list you on our website for our directors to see. They need some choices. Give us your prices, We will do this as a service to our directors. Same thing with crowns or other things they need that can help them lower their price. -- Anonymous, 06:00:36 11/02/07 Fri [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> If you list both vendors and directors on the site is it going to be seen as COI? Will vendors have specific rules/requirements they will have to meet to be supported/advertised by PFFPC? -- Anonymous, 13:49:12 11/02/07 Fri [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> We at PFFP don't really know the going price on this, but we would like to try to help the directors be able to lower their entry fees and thought this might be a good way to do it. Were not a pageant. How could we be COI ? -- Anonymous, 14:10:57 11/02/07 Fri [1]

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[> [> [> [> [> professional photos are so much better you may not get stage shots but you can take photos in the hall. Maybe crowning shots could be allowed after the photographer has gotten thier shots but other than that it would be to crazzyyyy -- Anonymous, 19:25:21 11/12/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> The directors wants nice pics so they can have them on their literature and on their web site of course they want professional photos. I have taken my own stage shots at pageant most had horrible lighting but they are not worth crap I would never use my own photos for a comp card you need good professional ones I don't do many big pageants and we have only gotten photos twice and it is expensive but why try to take your own they are not gonna look good anyway take photos of your kids before you go into the ball room and you can take pics of them in the hall with their crown to up close so it looks good -- Anonymous, 19:50:27 11/12/07 Mon [1]

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[> We are trying to do everything we can to help. If you feel this is wrong then tell us why. Were trying something new with this board and all opinions are welcome as long as its not bashing us. -- Anonymous, 14:20:51 11/02/07 Fri [1]

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[> My dd was in a pageant this year in which there were so many ties, who knows who the real winners were??? The director is put in an awkward position when she has to break a tie. I like the Low scoring judges. Then, there's no tie to break. If judges only score 8 and above, there's no competition! -- Anonymous, 17:08:29 11/05/07 Mon [1]

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[> [> I agree. There are to many perfect scores given. It has got to stop. Someone should really have to be outstanding to get a perfect score. -- Anonymous, 14:58:39 11/11/07 Sun [1]

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[> Here's the problem---if an judge give any child a score under an 8 the moms raise a BIG STINK. So now what do they do? -- Anonymous, 15:21:02 11/11/07 Sun [1]

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[> [> Too bad for the mom. Don't let them talk to the judges after the pageant. They'll get over it quickly and will compete in the same system the next time around. -- Anonymous, 05:49:03 11/12/07 Mon [1]

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[> This is what Univ. Southern Charm used to do and it was great... -- Anonymous, 08:42:06 11/20/07 Tue [1]

They had a 'head judge' that answered all the questions for the judges, met with them, etc. so the directors did not have to. This judge knew all the rules inside and out and also helped break ties. This judge monitored the scores for out of place high's and low's. That is, out of place with all the other judges scores. Like, if 4 judges gave a girl all 10's and the 5th judge gave 9.7's, then all the judges would meet (usually during the tie breaking after all the scores had been put in the computer). The low (or high) scoring judge had to explain the reason for the score. Darlene has sent a judge home on two occassions in different years for trying to throw her pageant. In that case, all of that judge's scores were thrown out of the computer and the winners were re-tabulated by the computer (they had a special auditing program made just for their scoring system). Anyways, thought I'd throw that out there for comprison. Also, Darlene mailed score sheets (all originals with judges signtures) after the pageant because she used to have 200 + contestants every year. No one saw the masters at the pagent but could request one by mail.

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[> [> click in to above to read details.... -- Anonymous, 08:43:40 11/20/07 Tue [1]

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[> I had to bring this up to see. -- Anonymous, 08:53:23 11/20/07 Tue [1]

They had a 'head judge' that answered all the questions for the judges, met with them, etc. so the directors did not have to. This judge knew all the rules inside and out and also helped break ties. This judge monitored the scores for out of place high's and low's. That is, out of place with all the other judges scores. Like, if 4 judges gave a girl all 10's and the 5th judge gave 9.7's, then all the judges would meet (usually during the tie breaking after all the scores had been put in the computer). The low (or high) scoring judge had to explain the reason for the score. Darlene has sent a judge home on two occassions in different years for trying to throw her pageant. In that case, all of that judge's scores were thrown out of the computer and the winners were re-tabulated by the computer (they had a special auditing program made just for their scoring system). Anyways, thought I'd throw that out there for comprison. Also, Darlene mailed score sheets (all originals with judges signtures) after the pageant because she used to have 200 + contestants every year. No one saw the masters at the pagent but could request one by mail.

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[> [> Just to let you know. You can put pretty big post in the subject line of this board. It is set to maxium so that you don't have to do click ins for most posts. -- Anonymous, 08:56:02 11/20/07 Tue [1]

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