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Date Posted: 05:25:04 10/29/08 Wed
Author: Hogarth
Subject: Regarding tax cuts.....
I hear a lot of chatter these days from people comparing “how much they would get” from either McCain’s or Obama’s tax plan. Before those people start planning their budgets based on the rosy numbers provided by the campaigns, they should probably consider that it is not the president that sets the tax rates. The actual taxes we will pay will be set by the Reid/Pelosi Congress, which is not a legislative group known for its fiscal responsibility or friendliness to taxpayers. It is also worth noting that in Obama’s case, a large portion of his promised tax cuts for 95% of us do not involve the actual cutting of taxes for those that pay them; rather, Obama is proposing ever larger government refundable tax credits (read: “handouts”) for those that already pay little or no tax at all. He calls those increased handouts tax cuts, but they are not. He more accurately (and accidentally) described his plan to the now infamous Joe the Plumber as “spreading the wealth around.”
For Obama to deliver on his promised tax plan, he will very likely have to do battle with his own party in Congress to keep them from adding their own increases to our taxes. Obama, never having fought a political battle in his entire (short) career, is unlikely to be willing or able to stand up to Reid/Pelosi, especially considering that he will need them to deliver the votes for his other pet projects. McCain will have nothing to lose by standing firm, although if America delivers a veto-proof majority to Speaker Pelosi, even he will not be able to staunch the flow of confiscatory taxes that they will impose.
American taxpayers, don’t start counting your chickens yet.
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A clarification... -- SB, 06:05:46 10/29/08 Wed [1]
and welcome 'Hogarth'! Obama's plan only relates to 'working families'. You have to be WORKING and yes you can make so little that you don't pay income taxes, HOWEVER, you always pay payroll taxes so it is not correct to say that they pay no taxes at all.
As usual the party of fear has stuck a label like 'welfare' on it unfairly.
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Thanks for the warm welcome SB. I've posted here before but it's been awhile. -- Hogarth, 07:08:36 10/29/08 Wed [1]
The majority of the so-called payroll taxes is Social Security. Social Security is supposed to be a contribution: you put money in, you get money out. If you don't put Social Security money in, and someone else has to do it for you, it's welfare. Obama is proposing a change to that: he is proposing that what was formerly a contribute/receive retirement plan be made into an entitlement. You pay nothing, you still get benefits. That IS welfare.
But your statement doesn't address the topic of my post, which is that Obama's tax plan is meaningless once Congress decides what THEY want to do.
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I would agree.. -- SB, 08:23:27 10/29/08 Wed [1]
as I mentioned in a post previously, neither candidate can oppose it's will on their own. I do not think a filibuster-proof run Congress is the way to go, but the GOP only has itself to blame if the dems reach 60. It certainly is not only Democrats that are voting for Democrats at this point.
I don't remember your name....where are you from?
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Please stick around Hogarth! -- Jeannine, 08:09:58 10/29/08 Wed [1]
and I certainly get your point about the Dem majority. The current financial crisis has been mishandled by Democrats and Republicans alike. BUT, the first domino goes to the Democrats and their blind support of Fannie and Freddie. So, why are Chris Dodd and Barney Frank still sitting there and being listened to? Barney Frank has even come out with a statement saying that they will always be able to find more rich people to tax and a 25% decrease in military spending is needed. Obama has not countered that with ONE WORD. You are right about his never bucking his party - and all of his proposals are just that - proposals dressed up by empty words. God only knows what we would end up with - and how it is going to be paid for. My suspicion is that the middle class will pay, as usual.
Now the middle class is supposed to be under 250K, right? Oh wait, I heard Obama say 200K. or now, as Biden said 150K? See a pattern there? Doesn't the speed with which they are decreasing this threshold prior to the election make you wonder what will happen afterwards?
And, SB - as for the "party of fear" - well, even scarier than disasterous economic policies and the oh so scary (and newly racist) word "welfare" is the prediction that Joe Biden made about how "MARK MY WORDS" we will have a huge international crisis after Obama is elected. THAT is the politics of fear.
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$200K is individual income -- SB, 09:01:49 10/29/08 Wed [1]
$250K is family income - both in line with his plan so mentioning those amounts doesn't seem unreasonable. I haven't seen the $150K line in context yet -- probably another Biden gaffe, but I'm sure it's keeping the conspiracy theorists busy.
I feel for you because I remember the doom and gloom dems felt 8 years ago, woefully proven. Although I can't remember such an end-of-the-world scenario as the GOP seems to adhere to.
Race isn't over yet...time will tell the tale.
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Thanks SB -- Jeannine, 09:34:55 10/29/08 Wed [1]
Ah yes, Biden and his "gaffes"... or as Obama called them "rhetorical flourishes".
I do appreciate you empathy. I am feeling better though - much more mavericky!
So much hatred has been directed at President Bush - I certainly haven't agreed with him on everything, but I do know that we haven't had a terrorist attack on the homeland since 9/11. And aren't you grateful that your disdain isn't labeled as racism?
And you are right. It isn't over.
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Well... -- scooter, 08:41:13 10/29/08 Wed [1]
The first thing George Bush when he was elected was cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations. How's that working out for you? And where was all the concern about the Congress being dominated by one party from 2000-06? If McCain is elected, it doesn't matter whether you earn $250,000 or $150,000--you're NOT getting a tax break. It's laughable to hear the Republicans blaming everything on the Democrats yet again. Many in this country, including me, are sick to death of the way the Republican party and their president has governed, and we're ready for a change. We've had eight years of corruption, arrogance and incompetence. Enough.
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Re: Regarding tax cuts..... -- Hogarth, 09:58:54 10/29/08 Wed [1]
"The first thing George Bush when he was elected was cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations."
Consider this from FactCheck.org:
"Actually, according to a nonpartisan analysis by the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, nearly 75% of all families are getting a tax cut this year from the two tax bills signed into law by President Bush in 2001 and 2002. The amounts vary widely, but the average is $1,217 – a dozen times more than Dean suggested.
Even families making only $20,000 to $30,000 a year are getting an average cut this year of $638. And 98.4% of that group -- "middle-class" by almost anybody's standards -- are getting some tax reduction, exactly contrary to what Dean said. And the amount of money is significant -- it increases their after-tax income an average of 2.7 percent above what it would have been before the Bush tax cuts.
And for those farther up in the middle-class hierarchy -- making $75,000 to $100,000 a year -- the Bush tax cuts are worth an average of $2,543 this year -- 25 times more than the $100 figure Dean suggested. More than 20 million American families earn $75,000 a year or more, and will be getting tax cuts in the thousands of dollars this year, not the the hundreds.
Generally, the only ones who get NO cut are those making less than $10,000 a year -- and few would think of them as middle-class. They’re the ones who earn too little to pay federal income tax in the first place, mostly singles and elderly retirees. Only 7 percent of them get a tax cut."
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Here's the link to factcheck.org -- Hogarth, 10:01:43 10/29/08 Wed [1]
http://www.factcheck.org/dean_wrong_on_bush_tax_cut.html
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true, ...although later... -- SB, 12:06:31 10/29/08 Wed [1]
http://www.factcheck.org/kerrys_tax_ad_literally_accurate_but_misleading.html
Share of Tax Burden:
Still Bigger for the Most Affluent
The share of the reduced overall burden has indeed gone down (again, on average) for the most affluent groups, mainly as a result of cutting the top rates and reducing taxes on income from dividends and capital gains.
Furthermore, the middle 20% pays a bit higher share, and the next-highest 20% saw their share of the total burden to up by seven-tenths of one percent. So the Kerry ad's claim is technically accurate if the "middle class" is defined as the 40% of the population making up the middle and fourth income quintiles.
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This is something that I am concerned about. -- HF, 12:47:26 10/29/08 Wed [1]
Obama's an idealist and I applaud that. I do worry, however, about how he's going to implement all of these grand changes with a Reid/Pelosi Congress. It should be interesting to watch!
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