Author:
Wade A. Tisthammer
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Date Posted: 06/26/02 1:16pm
In reply to:
Rex
's message, "Omnipotent/Omniscient" on 06/24/02 5:52pm
>"Modern theists typically claim that God is omnipotent
>to the greatest possible extent. God can do anything
>that can be done, even if he can't defy basic rules of
>logic (find England on a U.S. map etc.)."
>
>Does this mean that God can't do that which is
>unnatural?
That depends on what one means by “unnatural.” What is it, and can you please give me specific examples of “unnatural” acts?
>So who defines what is
>possible?
It’s not an individual that decides what is possible and what is not. It’s objective reality. Need more info on what’s impossible? One example: breaking basic laws of logic is an instance of something that’s impossible to do. Some theists apply only such laws as limits of impossibility, though other things like ontological impossibilities (e.g. actual infinites, though that is debatable whether such a thing is metaphysically impossible) and character traits.
>If this is what modern Theists are saying
>about omnipotence, what are they sating about
>omniscience? There certainly is a question about
>a God who knows everything including future events yet
>claims to have given the human being free will, and
>punishes or rewards individuals for having simply
>followed their preordained courses. Free will, by the
>way, happens to be one of those things that is
>absolutely impossible...even for a god.
You have not provided any justification for this, making it difficult to attack your reasoning behind it. However, I will provide one of the more popular arguments on God’s free will and omniscience.
The argument first starts off by saying that we humans obviously have free will. But do we really possess free will? Experiment for yourself. Right this moment, exercise your free will. Do something, anything at all, that you don't think nature or anything else could have possibly known you were going to do. Can you do it? I think I can. And the evidence (direct perceptions) would seem to indicate that we do indeed have free will.
Suppose there is a God with such attributes described on the list above. That would mean that he’s omniscient and thus knows the future. Then one can construct this sort of argument:
- As a person with free will, let’s say I’m given two options:
- A (I will do a specific task, action, etc.)
- Not A (I will not do that specific task, action, etc.)
- God is omniscient and knows everything, including the future. Thus, he cannot be wrong.
- God knows I will choose A.
- I will choose A and cannot choose Not A (from 2 and 3) no matter what.
- But if that’s true, I cannot freely choose between two options (from 4) if God is omniscient, contrary to that of a free willed being (from 1).
Conclusion: Free will and omniscience cannot coexist.
So how can an omniscient God also allow creatures to have free will?
Premises 4 and 5 are where the logic of the argument collapses. Just because I will do something doesn’t mean I have no choice in the matter. It could be that in that future I will in fact do action A because I freely choose that act, and the mere fact that God is aware of what I will freely choose does not in the least rob me of my freedom.
Suppose I use a time machine to travel from the present to the year 1995. I know that the American people will elect George W. Bush in the year 2000. But clearly, this foreknowledge does not imply predestination. I don’t take away the people’s free will simply by knowing what will happen. But what if people choose to vote for Al Gore instead? In that case, I would correspondingly have always known that when I traveled from the present to the year 1995.
It’s the same with God’s omniscience. Let’s face it, either I will choose action A (whether it be voting for a particular candidate or whatever) or I won’t. Suppose I choose A. If God knew it ahead of time, would that remove my free will? No. What if, at the last minute, I choose Not A? Then God would correspondingly have always known that I wouldn’t do A. It’s like traveling back in time before George W. Bush was elected. Simply because I know that the people would vote for George does not in the least imply that I have removed their free will, just like God knowing who would be elected does not imply that He removed their free will.
>This is the first time I've heard of Theists
>suggesting that their god couldn't defy basic rules
>of logic...
In that case, you really ought to read more theistic literature. This idea is actually fairly common. See this web page as a sample of theistic stuff.
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