| Subject: you know in your heart |
Author:
Don
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Date Posted: 12/12/01 1:35am
In reply to:
Biff
's message, "God and the Individual" on 12/11/01 1:04pm
I hate to drag this one up again, but I had some thoughts about it.
Some use the concept of "age of accountability" to answer that question. There are
indications of this concept in the Bible, enough to make a good case for it. Others argue
that no person who would have found salvation through Christ dies before they are able to
make the decision (i.e., if a baby dies and goes to hell, that individual would have gone to
hell even if they had lived their full life expectancy). But personally, I don't care one way
or the other.
--------------
Don
Well you must of cared enough to write a post. I think you care more than what you
admit. Such as it may be. The reason that you give up, in my opinion, on justice is
because you see the horrid flaws in bible doctrine and the injustice and I think you are
plenty in conflict with it. Criminal and civil law has not given up on justice and by no
means do they pattern after the bible god---save in a few points, mostly in the extreme
cases like murder. What you wrote up above, is truly in conflict with its self and I don’t
blame you for throwing up your hands and say “I quit”. If a baby dies and goes to heaven
because “so great a god” knows he/she would have “believed” any way that surly does not
do the rest of us justice for being here....every thing then on this earth is point less...you
have no choice so why bother.. this is not right.---It is OK Biff to disagree with the bible
and stand on what you know is right.
------------------------
It seems to me, and I haven't researched this yet, that the age of accountability concept is
a response to modern individualism. Over the past couple of centuries we've developed
the idea that each individual is responsible for his/her own behavior and nothing more.
That doesn't seem to be the prevailing idea through history, and I theorize that it does not
adequately explain God's actions.
-------------------------
Don
First of all Biff---going by your doctrine it is a sin to even consider such thoughts for your
trust in god should be totally blind--- Least you have knowledge of good and evil as
Adam and Eve and commit even a worst sin than they. Of course it does not explain gods
actions--not even god knows his own actions.
------------------------------
Collective responsibility seems to be much more prevalent through history. From God's
perspective, all of mankind has been tragically tainted with sin. If this means that people
who die before making a decision about beliefs go to hell, then that is how it is.
Many would question the justice in that. But I do not. Did all Nazis kill Jews? No, but we
continue to hold them all responsible to this day. Was the entire Taliban responsible for
the WTC disaster? Of course not, but we hold them guilty by association and consider it
justice to kill a large percentage of them, even if some women and children die in the
process. In the Bible, check Judges 19-20, when the entire tribe of Benjamin was held
responsible for the rape of one woman. It doesn't seem to me that these people would
have questioned the concept of collective responsibility from God's perspective. That was
the way it was.
----------------------------------
Don
Do you know what you just said---we now have the right to kill “on sight” any one who
we think is evil--by association. This is great--the justice of God strikes again--Hello
“dark ages” who the hell needs modern science when we have a bible to satisfy our blood
lust and self justification. Now all we need to do is hire a shawman to pronounce the “evil
ones” and we can kill to our hearts content. Did it ever occur to any one that Judges 19-20
was written by man and man uses god to justify himself and this is the full meaning of the
Bible God?
----------------------------------
I believe that we as a society are responsible for the actions of our people. When one man
kills another, we have done something to make the act possible and even justifiable in the
killer's mind. That doesn't excuse his behavior, for to let it go furthers it. But something in
our society has taught him to be who he is.
-------------------------
Don
Now what am I going to do. If I was a Christian I would have to go into every ones house,
any time day or night and make sure that they read the bible, prayed, raised their kids
right, went to church and along list of “right” things so as to “Guarantee” a law abiding
society. Not to mention that all the ladies must be very obedient to their husbands..... You
must supply me with a detailed check list----I also have sexual rules that you must fallow
so be sure to give me an accurate account of all your activities with your wife--god knows
your sins! Yes, we must take responsibility for all humanity-- because we love man so
much we want every person to be “saved”.--gag--puke--choke
NO you are not responsible ---understand this... you are not responsible. Our courts and
legal system has the responsibility of the populous at large “according to criminal and
civil laws”--you have a responsibility to your children to do the best you can...then after
that it is up to them to live their life as they see fit. It is up to legal justice in an open
court of law--trial by jury of your peers, solid evidence and proper legal representation--in
public to enforce good laws. If your neighbor kills or rapes How on earth could you be
put on trial for his crimes! Some butt head messes up his life and now you feel
responsible? No way...but on the other hand the bible teaches a fallacy of us all being
held responsible for the sins of Adam. I just give up trying to make any sense when it
comes to religion. Religion to me is a dated faith that people keep trying to find ways to
justify it---it is a pointless endeavor. There is one thing that I am in total support
of--public education so all men/ladies have an equal chance to get a “good” education. If
they pass on it then let them pay the price, it is their life to live, I wish them well, they
will need it.
------------------------
So, if God holds mankind collectively responsible for its actions, then that is his nature. It
is not for us to decide that it is unjust. We are not the supreme beings, he is. We are to
understand his nature and conform to it. That doesn't sound unpalatable to me, for if he
created everything, he should know how operates best.
----------------
Don
But Biff you just said a major conflict. On one hand you say you can never understand the
justice of god but on the other you say we must conform to the justice of god.
So what is it? I personally rather trust in a good attorney that works for me because I
hired him. The courts do not even recognize the bible and they should not ever. Man is by
far better off adjusting his laws to the times and culture than ever trying to figure out what
a ignorant god thinks. May I quote--
Genesis 8
21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not
again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is
evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have
done.
22
While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and
winter, and day and night shall not cease.
---------------------
Jeremiah 29
17
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine,
and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so
evil.
18
And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and
will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an
astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven
them
+++++++++++++++++++
Don
Now Biff you need to be very confused here 1) god is so ignorant that he did not know
that man was “evil from his youth”... some great god here...2) God lied like a rug and we
have his “rain bow” as proof that he did not know a thing about what he spoke of. What
do you call famine but a cure of the earth---what about pestilence---more curses. In fact
“curse” is mentioned 162 times in the old testament and 21 times in the new. This is not
to mention all the other words that mean the same.
If I am going to serve a god then I would like to think that he would have a better memory
than what I do. Also read verse 22 over again--- this is funny--- as long as my car has
gas it will run. Such wisdom from a great god.....as long as there is a earth it will
rain---some where....as long as the world last there will be seasons....While gods people
were stuck on the obvious the Roman were building an empire, much of common law and
case law today is based on what the Romans created along with the basic structure of the
USA government.
But here is one of the best justice of the bible god that I ever came across--don’t you think
we should just fire all the attorneys, judges, juries and get some “bitter water” and force
feed it to any criminal “suspect” and see if their thighs rot and their belly swells. How to
create the torturous dark ages---go by the bible. It was a popular torture by the Christians
in times past to force feed water till the heretics (Christians that believed differently)
belly swelled -- then split with several gallons worth. I wonder where they learned how to
do that---the intent was to make them “confess” that they did not believe in Jesus..
Christians torturing Christians into confession that they did not believe in
Jesus....Hmmm... must have been the start of modern medical science, Two point for
Wade.
Numbers 5
21
Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall
say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people,
when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22
And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to
swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
I trust that you Biff have a good sense of good justice--I believe you are a good man--fair
and honest. The Christians as a general total “today” are not the ones that took the bible
literally hundreds of years ago. They would have chewed Jorge and spit him out. This
justice that you have came from Biff not the bible and not from that god. This to me
explains your conflicts and rather than try to justify the bible god you just skirt the issues
and proclaim “trust god”. In your beliefs system that is the best thing to do--don’t face the
issue of justice that is in the bible or I should say non-justice. Trust God are fancy words
for “ignor it”.
But I must admit it does get under my skin when some Christians stand and proclaim
how just god is and how immoral the world is and only Christians have this divine sense
of morality only given to them by the bible god.... and only justice comes from god. But
when you show them the massive conflicts and an abortion of justice in stupidity in utter
immoral foolishness and discuss that is written in the bible they say---trust god for only
he knows right from wrong.... to me it is a fast back pedal---a run for the hills the truth
has arrived.
My kids at age 6 had a better sense of justice than what is written in the bible. I just put a
$20.00 bill on top of my computer--a bet to myself that Biffs kids have a better sense of
justice than what is in the bible, same goes for Mredds daughter. This is a compliment.
Most all men/ladies are born with a good sense of justice...but we can mess up the good
in nature by teaching them the wrong things---like being in confusion when it comes to
justice, it is our responsibility to study and learn and then teach our kids....If we are
confused over justice then what are we teaching them----there is no justice, that justice is
beyond mans comprehension---this is a damming lie and degrading to both you and I.
Biff---you know in your heart what good justice is. You do not need a bible to get you all
confused....If you want to improve your idea of justice then do not study the bible--study
or read Case Law.
Don
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