| Subject: Me know justice? |
Author:
Biff
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Date Posted: 12/12/01 5:29pm
In reply to:
Don
's message, "you know in your heart" on 12/12/01 1:35am
> But personally, I don't care one way
>or the other.
>--------------
>Don
>
>Well you must of cared enough to write a post. I think
>you care more than what you
>admit. Such as it may be. The reason that you give up,
>in my opinion, on justice is
>because you see the horrid flaws in bible doctrine and
>the injustice and I think you are
>plenty in conflict with it. Criminal and civil law has
>not given up on justice and by no
>means do they pattern after the bible god---save in a
>few points, mostly in the extreme
>cases like murder. What you wrote up above, is truly
>in conflict with its self and I don’t
>blame you for throwing up your hands and say “I quit”.
>If a baby dies and goes to heaven
>because “so great a god” knows he/she would have
>“believed” any way that surly does not
>do the rest of us justice for being here....every
>thing then on this earth is point less...you
>have no choice so why bother.. this is not right.---It
>is OK Biff to disagree with the bible
>and stand on what you know is right.
That's not what I said at all, Don. I have not "given up" on justice. What I meant by not caring either way is that I don't think that a concept like the age of accountability is that crucial. We can't decisively prove that it's a Biblical principle, and who cares? Even if it's not, God is completely just to hold man collectively responsible for sin.
>First of all Biff---going by your doctrine it is a sin
>to even consider such thoughts for your
>trust in god should be totally blind
Where did you hear this? That is not from the Bible. Check Proverbs 3:13-14 or Isaiah 6:9-10. To gain knowledge and understanding is a Biblical command.
>Do you know what you just said---we now have the right
>to kill “on sight” any one who
>we think is evil--by association.
No, that's not what I said at all. You've taken it to a misguided extreme. Collective responsibility is not some fringe idea. It's been prevalent throughout history. Society seems to have had more of a responsibility towards the individual than it does today.
>NO you are not responsible ---understand this... you
>are not responsible. Our courts and
>legal system has the responsibility of the populous at
>large “according to criminal and
>civil laws”
The legal system is what we've used to demonstrate our responsibility as a society. When someone does wrong, we impose punishment to (theoretically) teach that person not to do it. If we were to say "I'm not responsible," the ultimate result would be to ignore the deeds of wrongdoers.
--you have a responsibility to your
>children to do the best you can...then after
>that it is up to them to live their life as they see
>fit.
I think it's becoming more obvious today than ever that society has a collective responsibility in raising children. Increasingly, children are spending more time learning from someone other than their parents. It's very possible today for children to grow up with completely different values than their parents.
It is up to legal justice in an open
>court of law--trial by jury of your peers, solid
>evidence and proper legal representation--in
>public to enforce good laws. If your neighbor kills or
>rapes How on earth could you be
>put on trial for his crimes!
Did I say that? Read it again, Don. If my neighbor kills or rapes, our responsibility is to ensure that he receives punishment for that.
>
>But Biff you just said a major conflict. On one hand
>you say you can never understand the
>justice of god but on the other you say we must
>conform to the justice of god.
>So what is it?
Okay, Don. Let's assume for the sake of argument, that there is a supreme being who created everything that we can know. Absolutely everything. This being knows all that can be known, can do all that can be done and exists in every physical and metaphysical location. Do you really think that we, his mere limited creations, could comprehend concepts like justice the way he would? Remember, justice only exists because he created it. Do you understand your computer as well as the guy who designed it?
What I'm saying is that it is not in our interest to define God by our standards. All that is required of us is to understand his nature well enough to relate to him.
May I quote--
>Genesis 8
>
>21
>And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said
>in his heart, I will not
>again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for
>the imagination of man's heart is
>evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any
>more every thing living, as I have
>done.
>
>22
>While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and
>cold and heat, and summer and
>winter, and day and night shall not cease.
And never again did he smite every living thing. Springtime and harvest have not ceased. 'Nuff said.
While gods people
>were stuck on the obvious the Roman were building an
>empire, much of common law and
>case law today is based on what the Romans created
>along with the basic structure of the
>USA government.
The Romans had a much more corrupt, unjust and perverted religion than the Hebrews did. The reason the Roman Empire became so strong is the same reason that modern western society has become so strong today: insatiable materialism.
This to me
>explains your conflicts and rather than try to justify
>the bible god you just skirt the issues
>and proclaim “trust god”.
Don, if I had any strong conflicts about the Bible, I would have discarded it long ago. I've not found a reason not to trust it. It's been confirmed by history, it's been confirmed by application. I've encountered nothing to bring it into serious doubt.
>But I must admit it does get under my skin
Good, that's where it belongs.
>My kids at age 6 had a better sense of justice than
>what is written in the bible.
If the Bible is God's word, then that is impossible. You cannot understand something better than the one who created it.
>Biff---you know in your heart what good justice is.
Do I? I think I understand it well, but I do not have perfect knowledge of it.
Did Ghengis Khan, Ivan the Terrible, Bloody Mary, Diocletan, Henry VIII, Hitler, Stalin, know in their hearts what good justice is? What makes them different from me or you?
The difference is that we've been taught by people who had a good understanding of morality. We were given a good sense of ourselves and our worth. They were taught, either by their parents or by other people or experiences to be insecure and spiteful. Our society met its responsibility for us, it missed the mark for them.
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