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Date Posted: 15:30:22 05/02/03 Fri
Author: Urban Barrister
Subject: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all?
Picking up on my last message about the CC standings, why would an AE school want football in the first place? While I can understand why a school that has had football for a hundred years (UNH or Maine?) is reluctant to give it up, it still doesn't seem like a very good investment for the AE schools that field teams. I mean, what are the odds that football at those schools will ever be anything more than a fun way for students (and, perhaps on Homecoming, alums) to spend a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon. Even the worst DI programs cost loads of money (see Buffalo, for example), and unless you're in the unique position of possibly being able to move up to D-IA AND land your team in a great conference (like UConn may, depending upon how things shake out), at best, you're going to have a good team in a mediocre D-IAA league that gets little if any ANY regional or national exposure.
I mean, how many people -- other than students of member schools -- can name last season's champ in the Sunbelt Conference? Or the Mid-American? Or the Pioneer? Bing grad, I probably couldn't even tell you the names of every AE team that has football, not to mention what league they're in and how they did last year. (Maybe it's different if you live in Portland or Burlington as opposed to NYC?)
For that reason, tt seems to me that BU made the right choice when it dropped football (though it'd be great to hear if BU folks feel otherwise). Personally, I doubt anyone was choosing to attend BU because of its football team (I know when I was in HS, no one did), and it must've been a huge drain on their resources. And for similar reasons, I don't understand why Albany and SBU are so keen on dumping money into their programs, given the same issues plus a lack of any real history or success in the sport. What's their ultimate goal? Do they really think that someday they're going to have a Top 20 D-IA program that competes for bowl game invites? If not, then what's the point?
By contrast, throwing money into basketball, as many AE schools -- like BU and Bing are doing, seems like a much better investment. The teams play more games at home, the programs cost much less to operate, and if win the automatic berth, you get great national exposure -- exposure you wouldn't be able to get for a football program unless you were a Top 20 team AND received a bid to a decent bowl game. (Heck, I bet Bing gets more national exposure this year through the success of its golf and tennis teams than any football school in the AE has gotten through its football team over the past ten years.)
Let's hear it from all those football fans.
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- mainejeff, 15:47:18 05/02/03 Fri
I can only speak for Maine. You will never understand what football means to a school if you haven't had it. Maine will never drop football. It is the focal point of autumn weekends, and averages about 5,000 fans a game. Maine has made it to the NCAA Quarter-finals in 2001 and 2002. How many other AE teams have made it to the NCAA final 8 in any sport? Hockey is #1, football is #2, women's hoop is #3, and everything else is way down the list of popularity at Maine.
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- dovetail, 17:17:26 05/02/03 Fri
>I can only speak for Maine. You will never understand
>what football means to a school if you haven't had it.
> Maine will never drop football. It is the focal
>point of autumn weekends, and averages about 5,000
>fans a game. Maine has made it to the NCAA
>Quarter-finals in 2001 and 2002. How many other AE
>teams have made it to the NCAA final 8 in any sport?
>Hockey is #1, football is #2, women's hoop is #3, and
>everything else is way down the list of popularity at
>Maine.
Jeff: for once we are in agreement on something. At Delaware, football is not just a sport; it is a way of life. As long as I can remember, people have regarded Delaware football around these parts as a part of Autumn. Delaware Stadium holds 22,000 and on most Saturdays; it is filled. We have been to the NCAA finals on one occasion, and to the Semi's three times. We have the best post season record of any A-10 school. Football is about memories and there were some great ones on that field, something I could never say about basketball. I don't mean this to be offensive, but the writer of this thread must be female or a male who never played the game. They just don't know what they are missing.
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- UAalum72, 15:59:57 05/02/03 Fri
>Picking up on my last message about the CC standings,
>why would an AE school want football in the first
>place?
Because this is America, where we play FOOTBALL in the fall, not no damn soccer.
Anyway, Albany's had a team for over 30 years. They're on the news two or three times a week in season. Soccer wouldn't get a mentioned at all unless they got to the conference finals with an NCAA bid on the line. FB attendance is ten or twenty times soccer. You calculate the cost and decide if you think it's worth it.
If you're concerned about the expense, answer this: since attendance is low at almost all the Olympic sports, why have any sports at all?
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- animal, 16:24:29 05/02/03 Fri
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
My boss wondered what the hell was so funny when I fell off my chair laughing...
(Heck, I bet Bing gets more national exposure this year through the success of its golf and tennis teams than any football school in the AE has gotten through its football team over the past ten years.)
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- UNH_Alum_In_CT, 16:26:18 05/02/03 Fri
>Picking up on my last message about the CC standings,
>why would an AE school want football in the first
>place? While I can understand why a school that has
>had football for a hundred years (UNH or Maine?) is
>reluctant to give it up, it still doesn't seem like a
>very good investment for the AE schools that field
>teams. I mean, what are the odds that football at
>those schools will ever be anything more than a fun
>way for students (and, perhaps on Homecoming, alums)
>to spend a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon.
>Even the worst DI programs cost loads of money (see
>Buffalo, for example), and unless you're in the unique
>position of possibly being able to move up to D-IA AND
>land your team in a great conference (like UConn may,
>depending upon how things shake out), at best, you're
>going to have a good team in a mediocre D-IAA league
>that gets little if any ANY regional or national
>exposure.
>
>I mean, how many people -- other than students of
>member schools -- can name last season's champ in the
>Sunbelt Conference? Or the Mid-American? Or the
>Pioneer? Bing grad, I probably couldn't even tell you
>the names of every AE team that has football, not to
>mention what league they're in and how they did last
>year. (Maybe it's different if you live in Portland
>or Burlington as opposed to NYC?)
>
>For that reason, tt seems to me that BU made the right
>choice when it dropped football (though it'd be great
>to hear if BU folks feel otherwise). Personally, I
>doubt anyone was choosing to attend BU because of its
>football team (I know when I was in HS, no one did),
>and it must've been a huge drain on their resources.
>And for similar reasons, I don't understand why Albany
>and SBU are so keen on dumping money into their
>programs, given the same issues plus a lack of any
>real history or success in the sport. What's their
>ultimate goal? Do they really think that someday
>they're going to have a Top 20 D-IA program that
>competes for bowl game invites? If not, then what's
>the point?
>
>By contrast, throwing money into basketball, as many
>AE schools -- like BU and Bing are doing, seems like a
>much better investment. The teams play more games at
>home, the programs cost much less to operate, and if
>win the automatic berth, you get great national
>exposure -- exposure you wouldn't be able to get for a
>football program unless you were a Top 20 team AND
>received a bid to a decent bowl game. (Heck, I bet
>Bing gets more national exposure this year through the
>success of its golf and tennis teams than any football
>school in the AE has gotten through its football team
>over the past ten years.)
>
>Let's hear it from all those football fans.
I know I go back and forth on the issue of dropping football in order to have more resources for other sports. But in my own mind, I keep swaying toward keeping football and hence doing it right at the 1-AA level. For one, I don't have any faith that the UNH football budget would be spread around the other sports or lead to the return of baseball, softball, lacrosse, golf, etc. While some $$$ might be given to other sports, my guess is that cutting football would be used as an excuse just to cut expenses.
The arguments that keep me on the pro football side though are that over the years, a football game has hands down been the event that can get the most people on campus. Until recent times, UNH used to average almost 10K at football games, significantly higher than 6.5K at hockey games, and often had over 12K for big games (Homecoming, UMass, etc.). In addition I think that the football followers have a VERY high donation history to the university.
The same side of me that is furious that UNH doesn't play America's Pastime (baseball) also wants football because it seems un-American for one of the 50 state universities to not play football. I readily admit that is an emotional factor rather than a pragmatic one!
Another factor for me is that UNH has had a wonderful winning tradition. Before the past five years or so, I think UNH had winning seasons in 23 of 25 seasons, won a few Yankee Conference Championships, I think an A-10 Championship or two (or tied), made the national playoffs multiple times, etc. And over the years it was one sport that we competed on an equal level with our big brothers to the South -- UConn and UMass. That sure hasn't been the case with basketball. And A-10 participation has seen a competitive interaction with some schools with rich football tradition (Delaware, Richmond, Villanova, William & Mary, etc.). In a way I think it keeps UNH striving to keep athletics at a level one would expect of the flagship state university. Sometimes I think the bean counters would be happier if we were playing UMass-Lowell, UMass-Dartmouth, UMass-Boston, Keene State, Plymouth State, Lyndon State (VT), Southern ME, etc. I think kind of like Albany, SBU and Bing stepping up from Oswego, Plattsburg, Purchase, New Paltz, Potsdam, and all those smaller SUNY branches.
I don't know the tangible results of the exposure gained during NFL games or the national exposure from A-10/1-AA football compared to that gained by hockey. But I've got to tell you that I heard UNH mentioned more this past season on national TV than I ever have in my lifetime. The reason was Jerry Azumah starting cornerback for the Chicago Bears, Jason Ball starting center for the San Diego Chargers and Dan Kreider starting fullback for the Pittsburgh Steelers! I know all the research done at our schools and other academic achievements are way more important, but sports can bring some real significant pubilicity your way.
But all the practical and tangible reasons aside, I think my bottom line is that I like to watch football and A-10 football is a real good product. Getting together with friends on a gorgeous Fall Saturday to tailgate and watch a game is a pretty fine way to spend a day! Even freezing your butt off with friends at that last game in November is memorable. I admit that I'm old school, but to me football really adds a quality experience to the college scene.
My brain is fried after my league re-alignment post so that's all I can muster at this time and I hope it makes some sense. Don't know if it's enough to justify the expense or not!
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- Bainsey, 17:25:31 05/02/03 Fri
>Picking up on my last message about the CC standings,
>why would an AE school want football in the first
>place?
You're joking, right?
>at best, you're
>going to have a good team in a mediocre D-IAA league
>that gets little if any ANY regional or national
>exposure.
You're way off base on this one. Maine, UNH, and NU all play in the Atlantic 10, which, according to RPI and other numerical factors, is the STRONGEST I-AA conference in the nation.
>I mean, how many people -- other than students of
>member schools -- can name last season's champ in the
>Sunbelt Conference? Or the Mid-American? Or the
>Pioneer?
Why would we? Our school isn't in those conferences.
>Personally, I
>doubt anyone was choosing to attend BU because of its
>football team....
If you choose a university based upon the prowess of its athletic teams (assuming you're not an athlete, of course), then you're not making the best selection for yourself. D-I athletics is a wonderful thing, but it shouldn't be a basis for your academic or career decisions.
>Do they really think that someday
>they're going to have a Top 20 D-IA program that
>competes for bowl game invites? If not, then what's
>the point?
What's the point of the bowl games, anyway? At least we at the I-AA level settle the national score correctly. (I know; that's another topic.)
>Heck, I bet
>Bing gets more national exposure this year through the
>success of its golf and tennis teams than any football
>school in the AE has gotten through its football team
>over the past ten years.
Again, you're kidding, right? You forget that ESPN and Headline News scroll scores from ALL Division I teams. That's exposure that college golf and tennis never get, and D-I football schools get it every autumn weekend.
As for the "no damn soccer" comment from UAalum72, last time I checked, that was played in the fall, too.
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- UAalum72, 18:11:32 05/02/03 Fri
>As for the "no damn soccer" comment from UAalum72,
>last time I checked, that was played in the fall, too.
I was trying to write that with a redneck drawl, but anyway, yes soccer is played in the fall, but does anyone watch?
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Football is inherently American and gives you exposure! -- Dane96-, 20:23:49 05/02/03 Fri
Every argument is legit, those that are in favor of football that is. From UA's standpoint, we have been on TV numerous times, and have been extremely successful on and off the field (numerous academic All-americans). We now reach out to bring in student athletes, and students in general for that matter, in the state of Florida because of our yearly trips there. I have friends all over the country who know think of Albany as an actual school because they can see the team name on the CNN, ESPN, etc., tickers.
Ask the kids who played for us this year why we have football...for the experience. They played in Joe Robbie stadium two years ago and this year played in front of a packed (22000) house at Montana.
Football is inherently American. It gives schools spirit. Moreover, according to my sister, we are not a sport school until we make the NCAA's in hoops, or play a DI football game! She is a TERP of course, hence a sports snob.
That, Urban Barrister, is why nobody truly gives a crap about olympic sports (unfortnate as that is) but love football and basketball. That is the main reason that schools are recognized nationally (unless you are a rockstar academic school like MIT for example)amongst students. Its unfortunate, but athletics often are a very important indicator of a schools national prowess. Football is a key cog in that! Trust me, students at Albany will show up for the UA-HOFSTRA game...because they know Hofstra has good football. You think they really care about UA-Quinnapiac lax?
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- NU Hoop Fan, 21:00:50 05/02/03 Fri
First, to counter Mainejeff's point, NU's field hockey team has competed in the NCAA quarter finals (the Elite 8) twice in the last 4 seasons, and 2 times in the last 10 made the Final Four.
Up until the Don Brown Era at NU, I was almost 100% against scholarship football, since NU stunk, and hadn't made a commitment to compete at the level it was cometing at. I thought the cost didn't justify the tangible benefit, because 1-AA football is as big a negative NPV, low IRR project as you could possibly imagine.
Brown came in, McCaw gave him more (but not all) of the resources, and the team began to win. Now call last season for NU a flash in the pan, but the support that came from Alumni and students when the team got good was incredible.
Alumni don't care if the women's field hockey or indoor track are winning, however, when NU is on the front page of the Globe Sports section on a Sunday for FOOTBALL of all things, people take notice.
I heard from more alumni this fall when the football team was winning thatn I have in my years since graduation.
1-AA football will never be a moneymaker, but if NU can leverage its momentum, I may be swayed further.
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Re: On the subject of football, what's the value of playing football to an AE school?all? -- NUGrad, 09:37:47 05/03/03 Sat
>Picking up on my last message about the CC standings,
>why would an AE school want football in the first
>place? While I can understand why a school that has
>had football for a hundred years (UNH or Maine?) is
>reluctant to give it up, it still doesn't seem like a
>very good investment for the AE schools that field
>teams. I mean, what are the odds that football at
>those schools will ever be anything more than a fun
>way for students (and, perhaps on Homecoming, alums)
>to spend a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon.
>Even the worst DI programs cost loads of money (see
>Buffalo, for example), and unless you're in the unique
>position of possibly being able to move up to D-IA AND
>land your team in a great conference (like UConn may,
>depending upon how things shake out), at best, you're
>going to have a good team in a mediocre D-IAA league
>that gets little if any ANY regional or national
>exposure.
>
>I mean, how many people -- other than students of
>member schools -- can name last season's champ in the
>Sunbelt Conference? Or the Mid-American? Or the
>Pioneer? Bing grad, I probably couldn't even tell you
>the names of every AE team that has football, not to
>mention what league they're in and how they did last
>year. (Maybe it's different if you live in Portland
>or Burlington as opposed to NYC?)
>
>For that reason, tt seems to me that BU made the right
>choice when it dropped football (though it'd be great
>to hear if BU folks feel otherwise). Personally, I
>doubt anyone was choosing to attend BU because of its
>football team (I know when I was in HS, no one did),
>and it must've been a huge drain on their resources.
>And for similar reasons, I don't understand why Albany
>and SBU are so keen on dumping money into their
>programs, given the same issues plus a lack of any
>real history or success in the sport. What's their
>ultimate goal? Do they really think that someday
>they're going to have a Top 20 D-IA program that
>competes for bowl game invites? If not, then what's
>the point?
>
>By contrast, throwing money into basketball, as many
>AE schools -- like BU and Bing are doing, seems like a
>much better investment. The teams play more games at
>home, the programs cost much less to operate, and if
>win the automatic berth, you get great national
>exposure -- exposure you wouldn't be able to get for a
>football program unless you were a Top 20 team AND
>received a bid to a decent bowl game. (Heck, I bet
>Bing gets more national exposure this year through the
>success of its golf and tennis teams than any football
>school in the AE has gotten through its football team
>over the past ten years.)
>
>Let's hear it from all those football fans.
Football teams are not a good investment. They're not supposed to be. Schools field football teams because they are an integral part of the college experience. If you look at football from a dollars and cents standpoint probably no one at the 1AA level could justify having a team. BU made a mistake when they dropped football and when Silber leaves they'll correct that mistake like Villanova did a few years back. There is a "bring back BU football" organization and website, but they know that until John "the accountant" Silber is gone it isn't gonna happen.
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