Re: Silencing of Richard Price -- Part Six (Conclusion) -- Mamusz' Restoration Forum

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Date Posted: 13:28:56 09/18/11 Sun
Author: George
Subject: Re: Silencing of Richard Price -- Part Six (Conclusion)
In reply to: George 's message, "Re: Silencing of Richard Price -- Part Five" on 13:17:59 09/18/11 Sun

>Part Six (Cont from Five)

sect 6

RICHARD I would be glad to, uh, visit with them; I'd be glad to go talk to them, but I'm not going to change my position on the beliefs of the church. And I'm not going to accept them, their ministry, as long as they're teaching what they're printing...and what I hear them preach. There's no way that we can accept the, uh, these men and their teachings when they're teaching false doctrine. [seven second pause] Uh, I pray every day that they'll come back to the Restoration, and preach what's in the Three Standard Books. [five second pause] I can see a big editorial in the Restoration Voice now, if they did, how much I'd support them.

DAVID I'd like to say one more thing, and I won't say any more. It's going to be most
embarrassing when we transcribe last Sunday's tapes, Brother Hinson, where you said my father didn't have to worry about being demoted to the office of member, or silenced, that that wasn't going to happen.

O.C> You were talking about Section 156, David.

DAVID Sir, we have it on tape.

O.C> I know what you have on tape...

DAVID and forty...

O.C> ...and I figured you taped everything that was there. You're going to set it up the way you want to set it up.

DAVID And forty-eight hours later, after saying my father DIDN'T have to worry about being silenced, he's silenced.

RICHARD That's all right with me. I don't mind being silenced. Uh, uh, in fact I won't be silenced. Now you can take my license, and you can publish that I'm silenced. You can take a paper out of one drawer and put it in another, but that's as far as it goes , you see, because I've been "pocket silenced" for eleven years. They haven't asked me to preach. They, uh, don't want me in front. They hope I don't come to church, and, uh, so I haven't lost anything by, uh, you changing your paperwork. I'm still an elder of the Lord; he was the one who commissioned me, and I'm still teaching the gospel that he gave us, and I'll go on teaching the gospel he gave us. I'm not silenced.

[seven second pause]

O.C> [Sigh] I wish there was some other way to deal with it, Richard.

RICHARD I do too. I wish somehow, that we could help these men to understand what they've done to us. They're destroying the church...

O.C> That isn't the point I want to make.

RICHARD I know it isn't the point you want to make, but it is the point I want to make. The men at the top, and I'd like to know who started all this.

O.C> What do you mean?

RICHARD Well, uh, who was it that started with this liberalism in the church? [one second pause.] These men have, are destroying the church, they're just tearing it all to pieces. The apostasy is at the top. The people have been long-suffering and forbearing, and there've been a billion prayers go up.

[three second pause]

O.C> Richard, I don't have any question, but what there's a lot of people, oh, out there, who are, uh, [two second pause] very anxious to support the church. But they're having a problem in many respects, but I think those people have been greatly influenced and affected by your writings.

RICHARD I pray that's true.

O.C> And perhaps by the writings of others.

RICHARD But, you see, if the church is going to remain there must be common consent, and that means there must be freedom of speech and the press, and assembly, and everybody read everything, and then vote on everything. And, uh, then, what comes out of that, the Lord's going to bless. But when "Supreme Directional Control" is forced upon us, and people are not allowed to speak the other side of the coin, then the Spirit departs. Joseph Smith quoted this in the revelation there at Liberty Jail. "Amen to the priesthood" when they start using force. So it's not me that's being silenced today, it's men who are insisting that I be silenced. Nothing personal against you; you're doing what you think is right. Go ahead and do it. I won't disrespect you any more. I think you're dead wrong, but I'm not going to disrespect you, because I think you're doing what you see as right.

[six second pause]

O.C> You don't see any necessity for us to meet again?

RICHARD I'd be willing to meet. I'd be willing to meet with any of these men, only I don't have much time, I think. I know, but I'm sure they don't either. But I'd be willing to meet, but, if you can think of any way that there can be any reconciliation, I'd be very happy to hear it.

O.C> Well, I'd... to start with...

RICHARD Well, uh, to start with, let them find all these things that I've said wrong, and, uh, send me a letter in writing, and, uh, I'll review it, and I'll either publish an apology, or I'll write back and tell them that I'm still right.

[five second pause.]

O.C> A great percentage of that material, Richard, has been nothing more or less than your
personal interpretation of their writings.

RICHARD I don't believe that. I believe that every bit of it is showing things...

O.C> Just like the material that came out in the Examiner Sun, uh, Saturday. That's the personal interpretation that somebody wants to give to it...

RICHARD [unintelligible attempt to continue his sentence under O.C>'s discourse]

O.C> ...they want to give to the matter that he made a big issue out of in that one paragraph. There are many other paragraphs in there that offset that ten ways to Sunday. But he makes the point that, that that one issue is the big issue. So anybody can take anything and, and interpret it to suit themselves, and make hay out of it if they [trails off]

RICHARD It should have never been in there. It's false doctrine to say that anyone can be chosen to be put in the priesthood without a divine impress.

O.C> Well, you know, the rest of the material strongly supports the fact that the calls are divine.

RICHARD I know. They're still leaving a loophole for the liberalists to work through. Now, how are these brethren all going to go out and ordain some woman to be in the priesthood, but the Lord doesn't give them an ordi, a call, and yet they've got to have it in by a certain date. That, that isn't the way God works, either.

O.C> I'm sorry, but I didn't quite...

RICHARD Well, I,

O.C> Well, I�okay. I see what you're saying. Of course [cough] that is of course... You know, if there are no calls, there, there will be no women ordained. There will only be women ordained if there are calls.

RICHARD Look, they use a system that they, the loopholes that they put in here, that they can call women without divine inspiration.

O.C> I don't know anybody that's even buying that concept at all, Richard.

DAVID You admitted to it.

RICHARD Why don't you, uh, get the Presidency, then, to publish in the Herald next issue that that part of the guidelines is deleted because it's false? See, what they're doing? They're destroying the whole church.

O.C> I tried to say the other night that the human element is in there; you can't take it out.

RICHARD This doesn't help the, uh, thousands of people that are getting a copy of this... paper and reading that, and seeing it. If the Presidency would rather and publish that that part of it's false, I would have one less problem between us. That was put in there, apparently, for the purpose of allowing the liberalists to call people without divine impress. That's what it appears. And, unless they take it out, it's false doctrine. You follow me, what I'm saying?

[seven second pause]

O.C> Well, my reason for asking you down here was to discuss this possibility to see if there was uh, a door that we could walk through.

RICHARD Well, if you could find one, I'd be happy to hear about it.

O.C> Well, I don't know where I can find one...

RICHARD I don't either.

O.C> ...in light of what you've said...

RICHARD I don't...know where to find it either. I see, uh, that there is a complete, uh, split. See uh, theoretically...I mean...

DAVID ...theologically...

RICHARD ...theologically, and so on, between the two, the Presidency and, uh, the
Restorationists, uh, and once I'd have to surrender, it really does. I'm not sure this uh and ten thousand of the saints out there agree with me or not. And I can...I've tried to tell you at the meeting the other night, but I think I, somebody interrupted, is that you're going to see hundreds of independent Restorations Branches within the next two or three years. And that's something for you to give some thought to, because ...the saints are not going to go along with this. They're all meeting in the schools, and this is just the beginning. And they're doing it all over the church. I have letters from Ohio and California, and Washington, and everyplace else, that they're doing this, and everybody said "We're ready to go," whenever, when it comes down to it. When the first woman is ordained, they're starting a whole congregation.

DAVID Well, we're not allowed to worship as we ...

RICHARD Right.

DAVID ...desire.

RICHARD So, uh, the problem much bigger than that I'm publishing something that the
leadership doesn't like. But if I quit today, it wouldn't go away. It'll still be there.
[6 second pause] But once again, I, uh, I'm in the Centerplace, I see what's going on. I have the responsibility, before God, to tell the saints what is happening so that they can make their choice. You know, I, I haven't told any of them what they had to do. "Decision Time" was "time for you to make a decision" whether they're going to follow the liberals, or stay with the Restoration. There wasn't anything in there about what they ought to do, it was that they had a choice. I just told them what the other side of the coin was. So, they've made their choice, [three words here, [unintelligible]

O.C> I believe that you believe you're right.

RICHARD Why certainly.

O.C> But I do not believe you're right.

RICHARD Well, I, uh, I'm beginning to believe that you believe you're right. And so, uh, God help you...

O.C> Well...

RICHARD ...understand what is right.

O.C> I appreciate your taking the time to stop and visit.

RICHARD I'm happy to do so, and I know you're busier than I am. So, uh, I understand that.

O.C> Well, that's of no consequence how busy either one of us is...

RICHARD That's true.

O.C> ...no consequence.

RICHARD Doing the gospel work.

O.C> That's right. But let me say again, I, you're a very likeable person.

RICHARD Why, thank you.

O.C> I appreciate you. You're, uh, a very calm person to talk with.

RICHARD I could say the same for you.

DAVID Unlike his son.

O.C> Well, maybe you ought to take a lesson from him.

RICHARD Maybe, maybe the son will develop this over the years.

O.C> I hope so.

RICHARD Yes, he's working on it.

O.C> Well, I thank you for coming down, and, uh, [two to three words, unintelligible]

RICHARD Yes. Well, could we have a word of prayer before we go?

O.C> Yes, I think that would be well. I'd like to make one other observation... [four second pause] uh, though I don't anticipate that you'll change your perspective...

RICHARD No...

O.C> ...from what you've said. But I think that you understand that I will not change mine. I have no options.....I have to...

RICHARD I don't expect you to

O.C> ...do what is called for in the law, and, uh, what is called for in 1158, called for in 709, and what is called for in...whatever.

RICHARD Uh, huh.

O.C> Uh, that's uh, I'm not sure which one... I hope I'm not misquoting, I think it's, uh...

RICHARD Uh, I'm sure that there's a lot of resolutions that back up their position the rule for district [unintelligible] and all this kind of thing.

O.C> What I want you to understand, Richard, uh, I think David said when he went out the other night, that [unintelligible], that he wasn't mad at me, whatever it was. I don't get mad at people.

RICHARD Yes, I don't either.

O.C> Uh, I may be hurt sometimes because of the way relationships develop, but I...

RICHARD We're all hurt.

O.C> ...yeah...

RICHARD Everybody in the church is hurt.

O.C> But I love the church, and I have no question that you love the church.

RICHARD True.

O.C> But I have to say that I think some people are misguided and misled.

RICHARD I believe that. I believe you are.

O.C> Well, you obviously do. But, it doesn't take away my appreciation for the individual's right to think as he thinks, and, uh, whatever develops out of this, I don't want you to feel for a minute that there's any less respect on my part for you as a person.

RICHARD Oh, I'd say I've got more respect for you than I did when I came in here.

O.C> Yes, I think we ought to have a prayer before...

RICHARD My quarrel is not between us. The problem is between the Presidency and the
scriptures. There's the problem.

[ten second pause]

O.C> I asked Russell to sit in, since you said you were bringing David, so I...

RICHARD Yes...well, that's fine. I'm glad you did.

O.C. He is assistant to the Stake Presidency. I think it's helpful for him to have some exposure to, and get acquainted...

RICHARD Sure.

O.C> ...with people. He's relatively new to the stake.

RICHARD What was your name again? I didn't get it.

RUSSELL Russell Shipley.

RICHARD "Russell Shipley."

O.C. Uh, where is your home, Richard, originally?

RICHARD [unintelligible], Idaho.

O.C. From Idaho?

RICHARD Uh-huh, I grew up in Mormon land, and had to defend what I believe every place I went, and I'm still doing it.

O.C. When did you come here?

RICHARD Nineteen-fifty. We gathered to Zion. [unintelligible], we've lived down here since
1951, and, uh, we believe in Zion. That's why we're here. And I, I'm certain that the Lord' going to build Zion through the RLDS Church, after he cleanses it, and brings it back to its original teachings and beliefs. The only thing that worries me is how he's going to have to cleanse it. If we can do it by the printed word, uh, people, uh, getting to read what they...both sides, and vote, and have it go the way the Lord wanted it, everything will be well, but if we can't, then he has to come in and atomic bombs, or, earthquakes, or whatever, and, uh, do it his way. But he'll have his way.

[four second pause]

O.C. Well, let's have our prayer, and...dismiss. You want to pray, Richard, or?

RICHARD Yes, I'd be happy to. Our loving Father, we ,uh, come to thee at the end of this, uh, historic session, and ask thee for thy blessings upon the church. Father, we have both given our lives to the church. It means more to us than anything else. And, uh, we have a desire to, uh, serve the Lord Jesus Christ and defend his gospel and to further his work and to see the church prosper and grow. And so we come asking that if there is any way that it would be revealed that, uh, there could be reconciliation, and if there is no way, we pray, Father, that thou wouldst move upon whoever is wrong to, uh, change and come back to thy way. We plead for the church, O God, for thy people far and near, that they might rightly discern the truth and walk in thy way. And that thou wouldst speak to them through thy spirit to teach them the gospel as you want them to have it. O God, have mercy upon thy people, and upon the men who are, uh, directing the church, and upon we poor souls who are trying to defend what we believe is true. We plead in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

O.C. Thank you. Call me if you want to.

RICHARD Okay. Uh, I don't anticipate any changes. I think we're on a collu...collision course; there's no turning back, so you do what you have to do, and I'll do what I have to do. Let's shake on that.

O.C. Certainly.

This is March 26th. I have just received a letter for Stake President O.C. Hinson which states that I am officially silenced. I do not accept this silence, and I consider myself still an elder in the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

______________
Notes:

(1) The previous Sunday night, Price began asking questions of O.C. Hinson in an open meeting at the Enoch Hill branch. Hinson was forced to answer questions, rather than propagandize the congregation. This led to his insistence upon having this conference with Price. Now the leadership is more careful. It now has "Listening Sessions" in which the participants are asked questions by the speaker, but are not allowed to ask the speaker any questions. This gives everybody the chance to role-play cops and suspects�the congregation being the suspect, who is not allowed to ask any questions. Interestingly enough, the instruction sheets for these sessions are handed out, but are all returned and accounted for at the end of each session, to prevent the printed material from escaping the control of the local church leaders.

(2) This is the essence of liberalism�that there is no truth or falsehood, but only the appearance of either. If a group of people can be persuaded to believe in something, it becomes true for them, but an outsider need not participate in the "acceptance" of that "truth." Here, the stake president attempts to force Price into the mold of "outsider," or unbeliever; i.e, Price doesn't believe in the First Presidency, or in the current administration from bottom to top�thus, Price's statements are "incorrect," because he has adopted an unreasonable viewpoint and will not participate in the acceptance of the same "truth" that the members of the priesthood in good standing are required to accept. Throughout these notes, the liberal definition of the word is represented by the word "truth" in quotes. The ordinary Webster's definition is indicated by the word outside quotes.

(3) Hinson's suggestion seems very reasonable, and is intended to shame Price into admitting that somehow he has done wrong. However, take a look at the following exchange between the poster and Wallace B. Smith:
Dear Dr. Smith,/ Some time ago I e-mailed you inquiring about a matter that has been of some concern. I received no reply. Since you have retired, I have no idea when you are in the office and when you are out, so I am resending the request. I hope you will give it your prayerful attention. [Par]This letter is a request for information that I have not been able to obtain through ordinary channels. Otherwise, I would have respected your retirement from the Presidency and not bothered you. [Par] For a very long time, information has been circulating that you invited a Richard Barnet to speak on Peace at the Kirtland Temple. Mr. Barnet has been identified as a participant in the Institute for Policy Studies, which has been identified as a Marxist terrorist operative by the F.B.I. (according to my information). [Par] I also have been informed that Mr. Barnet edits a magazine called "Sojourners," which is also a Marxist-leaning publication, and that leaders in the church were, at least at one time, encouraged to read this magazine and subscribe to it. [Par] Mr. Barnet is identified as one of the men who helped Daniel Ortega establish the authoritarian rule of the Sandanistas during the period of the Communist dictatorship in Nicaragua. [Para]Would you please explain the nature of your relationship with Richard Barnet by answering the following questions: a) Where and how did you meet Mr. Barnet?/ b) What is the nature of your relationship? / c) Are you aware of his connections with Daniel Ortega? / d) What particular ideas did you feel he might contribute to a discussion of peace, as opposed to someone like the Rev. Billy Graham? / e) Why would the leadership of the church need to read "Sojourners" rather than a publication like "Christianity Today," or "Christian Century?" / f) What ideas expressed and developed by Mr. Barnet would you like to see the Community of Christ expand upon and maintain? / Please understand that I would not have written you had anyone I have come in contact with been willing to explain./ Sincerely, / George Williams (Dr. Smith's reply is given in the next footnote)

(4) Dear Mr. Williams, /This will acknowledge receipt of your e-mail of September 27, 2004. I do not feel, however, that entring [sic] into correspondence with you will serve any useful purpose. Your witdrawal [sic] of membership, itself, indicates your dissatisfaction with the chuch.[sic] Further explanation of, or debate about, its past or present policies and practices could hardly be productive. I will pray for your peace of mind, but will not respond to your further e-mails or correspondence. /Wallace B. Smith (Kenneth Robinson, in December 2005, answered my query about the selection of Steve Veazey possibly being in error. Mr. Robinson replied that if any apostasy ever occurred in the RLDS church, it happened during the administration of Joseph Smith, III. Other officials have answered questions of this sort, but none of high enough rank that O.C. Hinson would acknowledge them as "representing the church." No one that O.C. Hinson would acknowledge as "representing the church" will explain Mr. Barnet's connection with the CofC.

(5) As can be seen from Dr. Wallace B. Smith's communication above, "would" is not the appropriate word here. Perhaps Hinson meant "could."

(6) The stake president does offer a few examples of these "untrue statements." See how many examples you can identify. Also see if you agree with him, based upon his own discourse, whether these statements made by Price do not reflect verifiable reality.

(7) The stake president does not confirm Price's statement or deny it. He merely says, "I never heard that." If Hinson does not definitely know whether this is true or not, he is definitely too far out of the loop to be any judge of whether Price has correctly reported or printed anything.

(8) "He," being, of course, Howard Boothe, not Maurice Draper.

(9) Henson said earlier that Price was remiss in not contacting the authors of the material to which Price objected and asking them to explain themselves. Since Hinson will not recognize anyone lower than the First Presidency as "speaking for the church" doctrinally, he has, in effect, told Price: "Before you criticize these men, you must contact them, but they probably won't answer."

(10) This is related to footnote #2 . Here, Hinson tells Price that Price's dissatisfaction with the First Presi- dency's "truth" is insufficient to break up the group focus of belief held by the First Presidency and the rest of the leadership, so this "truth" will remain "true."

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The Beat Goes On: (was: Silencing of Richard Price ) -- George, 13:45:12 09/18/11 Sun
Silencing of Richard Price -- Part Six (Conclusion) -- George, 22:00:59 11/16/11 Wed