VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, [5], 6 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 14:12:17 03/24/02 Sun
Author: Òðåéòÿê
Subject: Re: ñïðîáè íîâî¿ ³äå¿
In reply to: Ìàêñèì 's message, "Re: ñïðîáè íîâî¿ ³äå¿" on 06:07:46 03/24/02 Sun

--- Öå ùå íå çäîáóòîê.

Íå ïîãîäæóþñü, öå âñå-òàêè çäîáóòîê. É âàæëèâèé çäîáóòîê. ßêáè íå áóëî ñàìîñò³éíî¿ äåðæàâè, òî ¿¿ äîâåëîñÿ á ùå âèáîðþâàòè, à êîëè äåðæàâà ³ñíóº, òî çàëèøàºòüñÿ ëèøå íàâåñòè ó í³é ëàä. Îöå, ïðèïóñòèìî, âè ñèäèòå â ñåáå â õàò³, â ò³é õàò³ ïîâíèé ðîçãðîì, áåçëàääÿ, âñå ïîáèòå, ïîðîçêèäàíå - õàîñ, àëå âè ìàºòå ñò³íè. À óÿâ³òü ñîá³, ùî ò³ ñò³íè ùå òðåáà áóäóâàòè... Öå êîëè âîíî âæå º, òî ëþäèíà íå äóæå çàìèñëþºòüñÿ, íå òàê ö³íóº, ñïðèéìຠÿê íàëåæíå, à êîëè éîãî íåìàº, òî ò³ëüêè ïðî íüîãî é äóìàº.

--- ßêùî ðåàëüíå åêîíîì³÷íå çðîñòàííÿ íå â³äáóäåòüñÿ íàéáëèæ÷èì ÷àñîì, îñòàíí³é øàíñ íà âëàñíó äåðæàâó áóäå âòðà÷åíèé íàçàâæäè.

ß áè íå ðîáèâ òàêèõ àïîêàë³ïòè÷íèõ ïðîãíîç³â. Íå ÷åðåç ñâà³é âåëèêèé îïòèì³çì, ðàäøå ÷åðåç "ïåñèì³ñòè÷íèé ïåñèì³çì". Âò³ì, âñå çàëåæèòü ùå é â³ä òîãî, ùî âè ìàºòå íà óâàç³, êîëè êàæåòå "íàéáëèæ÷èì ÷àñîì". Ùî òàêå º ïî-âàøîìó "âòðàòà øàíñó"? - åêîíîì³÷íèé äåôîëò ÷è ùî? Ïðîøó êîíêðåòèçóâàòè.

Ïðî Ìàõíà òà éîãî ðóõ. Ãåòü ç éîãî ïîë³òè÷íèìè ö³ëÿìè, ïîë³òè÷íîþ ïðèðîäîþ, ïîë³òè÷íîþ çð³ë³ñòþ, òîùî. ß ìàâ íà óâàç³ ñïîñîáè áîðîòüáè. À âîíè áóëè ñàìå ïàðòèçàíñüêèìè. Íåâàæëèâî, ïðîòè êîãî òà çà ùî â³í âîþâàâ, - â êîíòåêñò ö³º¿ äèñêóñ³¿ âàæëèâà éîãî ïàðòèçàíñüêà áîðîòüáà, "â³éíà ïðîòè âñ³õ", ÿê òàêà. Ìàõíîâñüêèé ðóõ äîâ³â òåõí³÷íó, ïðèíöèïîâó ìîæëèâ³ñòü óñï³øíî¿ ïàðòèçàíêè â ñòåïó. Äî ðå÷³, çà íîâ³òí³õ ÷àñ³â, ùî òåæ âàæëèâà ð³÷ â êîíòåêñò³ äèñêóñ³¿.

--- Çäàºòüñÿ, íà óêðñòîð³ âæå âèêëàëè ôðàãìåíòè, ìîæåòå ñàì³ ïîøóêàòè

Òî äîñèòü ì³çåðí³ ôðàãìåíòè. Ñòîñîâíî Ñêîðîïàäñüêîãî: çäàºòüñÿ, â³í âñå-òàêè áóâ àâòîíîì³ñòîì, ùî íå ãð³õ íà òîé ÷àñ. Ùå ð³ê (àáî òðîõè á³ëüøå) ïåðåä íèì Ãðóøåâñüêèé òà äåÿê³ ³íø³ ä³ÿ÷³ òàê ñàìî áóëè àâòîíîì³ñòàìè, çàäîâîëüíÿëèñÿ ôåäåðàö³ºþ, é êðèòèêóâàëè ñàìîñò³éíèöòâî. Ïî䳿 òîãî ÷àñó ðîçâèâàëèñÿ äóæå ñòð³ìêî - íå âñ³ âñòèãàëè ïåðåáóäóâàòè ñâî¿ ïîãëÿäè. Ïðîãîëîøåíà Ñêîðîïàäñüêèì â ëèñòîïàä³ 1918 ð. ôåäåðàö³ÿ ç Ðîñ³ºþ áóëà äî ïåâíî¿ ì³ðè âèìóøåíèì êðîêîì - íà âèìîãó Àíòàíòè, ÿêà, äî ðå÷³, íå äóæå-òî ðàõóâàëàñÿ ç³ Ñêîðîïàäñüêèì, áî â³í áóâ ïðàâèòåëåì ç í³ìåöüêî¿ ðóêè. Ïîçàÿê, çð³âíþâàòè â îäíå Ñêîðîïàäñüêîãî ³ çàéä ç "á³ëî¿ ãâàð䳿" -íåïðàâèëüíî òà é íåñïðàâåäëèâî. Ñêîðîïàäñüêèé ðîçðèâàâñÿ - é íå âèòðèìàâ - â öüîìó éîãî òðàãåä³ÿ. Íå òðåáà òàêîæ çàáóâàòè ïðî òå, ùî òîä³ ñèëüíî ñïðè÷èíèâ äî âèáóõó ñîö³àëüíèé ÷èííèê - Ñêîðîïàäñüêèé ÿê öàðñüêèé ãåíåðàë, àðèñòîêðàò ç ïîõîäæåííÿ, ïðàãíóâ çàëèøèòè âñå ÿê áóëî çà öàðàòó, à íàéãîëîâí³øå - ïîì³ùèöüêå çåìëåâîëîä³ííÿ (çãàäàéòå "Ñï³ëêó õë³áîðîá³â"). Íà òë³ òîä³øí³õ ïîäé öå áóëî â³äâåðòå áåçãîëîâñòâî - îòæå ùîéíî îñëàáëà ï³äòðèìêà ç áîêó í³ìö³â (÷åðåç ïîðàçêó ó ² ñâ³òîâ³é â³éí³) - é âèáóõíóëî ïîâñòàííÿ.

Íå äóìàéòå, ùî ÿ õî÷ó âèñòóïèòè òàêèì ñîá³ àäâîêàòîì Ñêîðîïàäñüêîãî, ìåí³ îñîáèñòî â³í ìàëî ³ìïîíóº ÿê äåðæàâíèé ä³ÿ÷, àëå íåäîö³ëüíî çâîäèòè íà íüîãî çàéâ³ íàêëåïè - çðåøòîþ, â³í áóâ ëþäèíîþ ñâîãî ÷àñó. Äî ðå÷³, äåÿê³ òîä³øí³ ïðîóêðà¿íñüê³ ä³ÿ÷³ ï³äòðèìóâàëè ãåòüìàíà Ñêîðîïàäñüêîãî - íåâæå âîíè âñ³ áóëè çàïðîäàíöÿìè ³ çàòÿòèìè ìîñêâîô³ëàìè? - Ïåâíî, ùî í³. ˳í³ÿ ðîçêîëó ïðîõîäèëà òîä³ íå ò³ëüêè ïî íàö³îíàëüí³é, àëå é ïî ñîö³àëüí³é ë³í³¿ - Ïåòëþðà ³ ³ííè÷åíêî áóëè ñîö³àë³ñòàìè, âîíè îá³öÿëè ðîçä³àòè ñåëÿíàì çåìëþ, à â³ä³áðàòè ¿¿ òðåáà áóëî â ïîì³ùèê³â: Ñêîðîïàäñüêèé áóâ êàíäèäàòóðîþ îñòàíí³õ, é âîíè, çðîçóì³ëî, ï³äòðèìóâàëè Ñêîðîïàäñüêîãî ÿê ñâîãî ãàðàíòà. Ïîì³ùèêè áóëè ïåðåâàæíî àáî ³íøîåòí³÷íèìè çàéäàìè, àáî äàâíî çðóñèô³êîâàíèìè ìàëîðîñàìè (äî ðå÷³, íàùàäêè ë³âîáåðåæíî¿ ñòàðøèíè), òîä³ ÿê ñåëÿíè, çðîçóì³ëî, áóëè ÷èñòåñåíüêèìè óêðà¿íöÿìè, à ïðîâîäèëà öèì ðóõîì íàðîäíà ³íòåë³ãåíö³ÿ, äð³áí³ ï³äïðèºìö³, ³ ò.ä., ÿê³ íàáðàëèñÿ âîºííîãî äîñâ³äó çà Ïåðøî¿ ñâ³òîâî¿ - âîíè-òî ÿêðàç ³ áóëè íàö³îíàëüíî-ñâ³äîìèìè. Âåëèêà àðì³ÿ Ïåòëþðè çðàçêà ãðóäíÿ 1918 ðîêó äóæå ñêîðî ïî÷àëà ðîçá³ãàòèñÿ - ñåëÿíè ïîêâàïèëèñÿ ä³ëèòè çåìëþ, âíàñë³äîê ÷îãî çàì³ñòü ê³ëüêàñîò òèñÿ÷ â³éñüêà Ïåòëþðà ìàâ ó ëþòîìó 1919 ðîêó ÿê³ñü ê³ëüêàäåñÿòü òèñÿ÷, é â³äòàê ìóñèâ óñòóïàòè ç Êèºâà.


--- Ïàâëî Ñêîðîïàäñüêèé. Ñïîãàäè (ê³íåöü 1917-ãðóäåíü 1918)./ ðåä. ß.Ïåëåíñüêèé. - Êè¿â-Ô³ëàäåëüô³ÿ, 1995. - 496 ñ.

Äóæå äÿêóþ! Ïðèíàã³äíî, ùå ê³ëüêà çàïèòàíü ïðî êíèæêó, ìîæå âè çíàºòå: (ÿêùî ÿ ùîñü íàïëóòàâ, òî ñêàæ³òü)
À äå ñàìå öþ êíèæêó íàäðóêóâàëè, ÿêå âèäàâíèöòâî? ² ùå òàêå ïèòàííÿ: ñâî¿ ñïîãàäè Ñêîðîïàäñüêèé ïèñàâ ðîñ³éñüêîþ, ÷è íå òàê? Òî ó âêàçàí³é êíèæö³ öå, ñë³ä äóìàòè, óêðà¿íñüêèé ïåðåêëàä? ×è íå âèäàâàëèñÿ "Ñïîãàäè" ìîâîþ îðèã³íàëó?

--- Ôàêòè÷íî, öå îçíà÷àòèìå çàäóðþâàííÿ ëþäåé çàì³ñòü îäíîãî ñì³òòÿ ³íøèì. Ëèøå ÷èñòèìè ðóêàìè, áåç æîäíèõ ãàñåë, à ðàö³îíàëüí³ñòþ, â³äêðèò³ñòþ ³ ìîæíà ùîñü ðîáèòè. Áóäü ÿêèé ñîö³àëüíèé ïîïóë³çì ãðàòèìå ïðîòè ñó÷àñíî¿ Óêðà¿íè.  ìóòí³é âîäèö³ ïîïóë³çìó çàâæäè âîäèòèìóòüñÿ êëàíè, îë³ãàðõè òà ò³íüîâèé ñåêòîð.

Ïåðåïðîøóþ, ÿ íå ìàâ íà óâàç³ æîäíèé ïîïóë³çì! ͳ, ÿ æ ïèñàâ ïðî íîâó ³äåîëîã³þ, ³äåþ, ïðî òå, ùî ñîö³àëí³ ãàñëà ïîâèíí³ ìàòè ðåàëüíèé ãðóíò. ß ââàæàþ êîí÷å íåîáõ³äíèì çàáèòè é ñîö³àëüíó ä³ëÿíêó íàö³îíàëüíî¿ ³äåîëî㳿, áî ñîö³àëüíèé ÷èííèê çàâæäè áóâ, º ³ áóäå âàæëèâèì. Òðåáà ìàòè ÿê³ñü ñîö³àëüí³ ïåðåêîíàííÿ - áî ñàìà-îäíà íàö³îíàëüíà ³äåîëîã³ÿ âè÷åðïóºòüñÿ äóæå ñêîðî. Êîëè ï³äå ìîâà ïðî òå, ÿê êóïóâàòè-ïðîäàâàòè çåìëþ, òà ÷è ïðîäàâàòè, ïðî ïðèâàòèçàö³éíó ïîë³òèêó âçàãàë³, ³ ò.ä., òî òðåáà ìàòè ÿêóñü ï³äñòàâó, ³äåîëîã³þ â öüîìó ïèòàíí³. Çðåøòîþ, ÿêó äåðæàâó õî÷åìî áóäóâàòè åêîíîì³÷íî? Íà çðàçîê ÑØÀ, ÷è ìîæå Øâåö³¿, ÷è ìîæå ʳòàþ, ÷è ìîæå Âåíåñóåëè? Òðåáà æ âèçíà÷èòèñü. ²íàêøå âè ìîæåòå îïèíèòèñÿ â íåçàëåæí³é Óêðà¿í³, ÿêà çà åêîíîì³÷íèì ñòàòóñîì áóäå ... ïðèâàòíèì âîëîä³ííÿì, ñêàæèìî, Ìåäâåä÷óêà (öå ïðçâ³ùå ÿ íàâ³â âèêëþ÷íî ÿê ïðèêëàä, áåç æîäíî¿ ïðèâ"ÿçêè äî ðåàëüíî¿ ïîñòàò³). ßêùî íàö³îíàëüíèé ðóõ íå çàïðîïîíóº æîäíî¿ ïîçèòèâíî¿ ñîö³àëüíî¿ ³äå¿, òî íà òîìó ïîë³ é íàäàë³ áóäóòü ïàñòèñÿ êîìóí³ñòè ç ¿õí³ìè íåðåàëüíèìè ïîïóë³ñòñüêèìè ãàñëàìè é ïðîìîñêîâñüêîþ ï"ÿòîêîëîííèöüêîþ ñóòòþ òà ñïðèòí³ ä³ëêè, øàõðà¿-îë³ãàðõè ç ¿õí³ìè ïåðåäâèáîðíèìè äð³áíèìè ïîäà÷êàìè.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.