Date Posted:16:13:38 01/10/03 Fri Author: HM Subject: Yep poor little wombat In reply to:
pat
's message, "Of course Primmy agrees with him" on 21:09:39 01/08/03 Wed
got fried.
actually I don't have anything against e-collars (won't use them though)...but I think they can be abused like JD uses them...primrose probably fries her dog too if she doesn't do exactly as she is suppose to.
>How do you think she got her Wombat under control? She
>has told us a number of times she uses an E-collar.
>(the despicable hag!)
>
>
>
>>I find him to be a poor excuse for a human being. I
>>also feel that he would never had gotten away with the
>>torture of that animal unless the circles he is
>>traveling in find it acceptable. Prim agrees with him
>>for Christ sake. What more prompting than that do we
>>need to discuss this elsewhere. I think if JD is a
>>moderator on that board I am going to steer clear of
>>it. I don't need people to have to agree with me, I
>>am always up to a good "discussion" but I also do not
>>really think I should be bantering about animal
>>behaviour when the one who is spouting the most is an
>>animal himself. He is a demented man and from your
>>dealings with Prim doyou not already understand that
>>there is no rationalizing with someone who is
>demented?
>>
>>>Please forgive me for "dragging the argument" from
>one
>>>board to another but I really think I have a good
>>>reason this time. Hard to confront someone when you
>>>know he's got his finger on the delete button.
>>>
>>>"In all fairness, we started the AmBull off in
>>>tracking at the age of twelve weeks--doing baby step
>>>tracks with food in each track. This is pretty
>typical
>>>of how we start off all dogs for schutzhund and/or
>AKC
>>>tracking. Ring prospects are done a bit differently
>>>since refusal of food is an integral part of their
>>>overall trial/testing.
>>>
>>>The American Bulldog did okay on his tracking by the
>>>time he was old enough to trial--scored on average in
>>>the low 80s (have to have a minimum of 70 to pass and
>>>move on to the obedience portion of the trial). In
>>>this, he was pretty consistent--especially
>considering
>>>he had a novice handler/owner working him. I once
>>>worked him for several weeks prior to his trialing
>for
>>>his Sch I title and managed to get him a score in the
>>>upper 80s.
>>>
>>>Obedience was another story--we were lucky to even
>get
>>>the minimal score of 70. And this was with almost two
>>>full years of hard training. The send-away (voraus)
>>>exercise was virtually non-existent as there was no
>>>control over the dog once he was a certain distance
>>>away from the handler. I finally resigned myself to
>>>taking a severe penalty by "platzing" him when he had
>>>moved no further than maybe ten feet away.
>>>
>>>His drive and courage and willingness to protect and
>>>attack during the protection portions was never in
>>>question, however he was very slow to out--especially
>>>so on the courage test when he was forty meters away
>>>from the handler. He was dismissed from the field on
>>>several occasions when he flat refused to out and his
>>>owner had to choke him off the sleeve, which the
>>>helper had slipped.
>>>
>>>But through perseverance and determination, we did
>>>finally manage to put a Sch I on him after which the
>>>club (and the awarding judge) strongly recommended
>>>retiring the dog as there was simply no way he was
>>>ever going to get a Sch II.
>>>
>>>The AmStaff that we put a Sch II on was a horrid
>>>tracker--had no interest at all, and you do not
>>>force-track a dog like an AmStaff. For the record, I
>>>am not a proponent of force-tracking any dog, but I
>>>have made rare exceptions over the years when the dog
>>>was capable of scoring in the mid to high 90s
>>>elsewhere in the trial.
>>>
>>>But this AmStaff simply did not "get it" when it came
>>>to even the cursory basics of tracking. Other
>AmStaffs
>>>that came through the club displayed the same
>>>tendencies. Generally, there was just no interest (or
>>>drive) displayed by them on the tracking field. If I
>>>remember correctly, this particular dog never scored
>>>above a 75 on both occasions in which we put the
>>>titles on her.
>>>
>>>Obedience was hot and cold--very inconsistent dog.
>Her
>>>owner was an experienced trainer and handler, and
>>>pretty knowledgeable about the breed. Her other breed
>>>was Boxers--another dog this day and age that is
>>>difficult to put a schutzhund title on (even though
>>>for the longest time in Germany, they were second in
>>>popularity only to the GSD for schutzhund work).
>>>
>>>This AmStaff's biggest problem in the obedience was
>>>heeling on-leash--heeling off-leash was not a
>problem,
>>>but anytime she had a leash on her, it was a constant
>>>tug. That is where she also lost the most points. The
>>>retrieving exercises were iffy as well--although her
>>>ability to clear the brush hurdle and negotiate the
>>>seven-foot wall was pure poetry in motion.
>>>
>>>But this dog's biggest problem in obedience was
>>>maintaining the long down while the other dog was
>>>executing its obedience routine. Depending on her
>>>"mood," she was bad for breaking the long-down and
>>>going after the other dog--especially during the
>other
>>>dog's long recall or send-away.
>>>
>>>We finally had to resort to the Tritronics e-collar
>>>with a very high corrective setting and continuous
>>>correction--often up to the full ten seconds. This
>dog
>>>had to be brought to her knees, shrieking before we
>>>were finally able to have confidence that she could
>>>maintain the long-down without going after the other
>>>dog.
>>>
>>>And again, this dog was owned by a woman experienced
>>>in both training and the breed.
>>>
>>>Her protection work was sharp, swift and
>>>precise--right up until it was time to out the
>sleeve.
>>>Most dogs learn to out the sleeve fairly quickly once
>>>that portion of the training is undertaken, but both
>>>of the bulldogs hated releasing the sleeve. We were
>>>prepared for this, with them being bulldogs, but it
>>>took a lot longer to get them ready for trial than it
>>>did with the other (breeds of) dogs.
>>>
>>>Overall, while there are a handful of the bulldog
>>>types that have managed to earn schutzhund titles
>>>(none to my knowledge have ever earned a FR III or
>>>made it through the Dutch Ring or French Campagne),
>>>they are not a breed suited to that type of training
>>>or work.
>>>
>>>I share the opinion of many other working dog
>trainers
>>>who say that the "talents and abilities" of today's
>>>bulldog breeds are very limited when compared to the
>>>same "talents and abilities" of other breeds from the
>>>Working and Herding groups--and with a few
>exceptions,
>>>the Sporting Group (Labs, Goldens Weimeraners).
>>>
>>>But then again, today's Dachschund is pretty limited
>>>as well, as are a lot of breeds.
>>>
>>>Which is why I have never heard of working dogs or
>>>herding dogs being referred to as "game," but rather
>>>as having strong drive.
>>>
>>>Funny thing in the Doberman world (AKC side of it,
>>>that is) is there is a test done at Doberman
>>>specialties called the Working Aptitude Evaluation
>>>(WAE). The creator of that test is Vic Montelon who
>is
>>>well regarded in the DPCA. Vic breeds Dobermans that
>>>Europeans come over HERE to purchase and then take
>>>back to Germany and France for schutzhund and ring
>>>work. In other words, he breeds Dobermans with
>correct
>>>temperament.
>>>
>>>In the final portion of the WAE, the Doberman and its
>>>handler are confronted by the "weird stranger" who
>>>acts menacingly towards both the dog and the handler.
>>>The dog is expected to show every indication that he
>>>is ready to mix it up with the weird stranger in
>>>defense of both himself and his handler. If you fail
>>>that portion of the test, you fail the entire WAE. So
>>>the dog isn't expected to show instant aggression--he
>>>is required to.
>>>
>>>Yet, dog aggression will get you and your dog
>>>dismissed from the grounds. Dog aggression that a
>>>schutzhund or campagne judge deems threatening will
>>>not only get you dismissed from the trial, but it can
>>>also disqualify your dog from further competitions.
>In
>>>instances where such a dog actually does attack
>>>another competing dog, it is not unusual for that dog
>>>to be permanently barred from further competition and
>>>its registration papers revoked.
>>>
>>>I admire a dog with strong drives--but only if that
>>>dog also has the capacity to be under constant,
>>>reliable voice-only control. If it doesn't, then it
>is
>>>of absolutely zero value to the working dog's world.
>>>
>>>--JD"
>>>
>>>http://www.sunshineband.org/cgi-bin/boards/dogpark.pl
>?
>>r
>>>ead=28655
