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>I mean, if you were the wombat, wouldn't you try to >escape from Primmy? > >>got fried. >> >>actually I don't have anything against e-collars >>(won't use them though)...but I think they can be >>abused like JD uses them...primrose probably fries her >>dog too if she doesn't do exactly as she is suppose >to. >> >> >> >>>How do you think she got her Wombat under control? >She >>>has told us a number of times she uses an E-collar. >>>(the despicable hag!) >>> >>> >>> >>>>I find him to be a poor excuse for a human being. I >>>>also feel that he would never had gotten away with >>the >>>>torture of that animal unless the circles he is >>>>traveling in find it acceptable. Prim agrees with >>him >>>>for Christ sake. What more prompting than that do >we >>>>need to discuss this elsewhere. I think if JD is a >>>>moderator on that board I am going to steer clear of >>>>it. I don't need people to have to agree with me, I >>>>am always up to a good "discussion" but I also do >not >>>>really think I should be bantering about animal >>>>behaviour when the one who is spouting the most is >an >>>>animal himself. He is a demented man and from your >>>>dealings with Prim doyou not already understand that >>>>there is no rationalizing with someone who is >>>demented? >>>> >>>>>Please forgive me for "dragging the argument" from >>>one >>>>>board to another but I really think I have a good >>>>>reason this time. Hard to confront someone when >you >>>>>know he's got his finger on the delete button. >>>>> >>>>>"In all fairness, we started the AmBull off in >>>>>tracking at the age of twelve weeks--doing baby >step >>>>>tracks with food in each track. This is pretty >>>typical >>>>>of how we start off all dogs for schutzhund and/or >>>AKC >>>>>tracking. Ring prospects are done a bit differently >>>>>since refusal of food is an integral part of their >>>>>overall trial/testing. >>>>> >>>>>The American Bulldog did okay on his tracking by >the >>>>>time he was old enough to trial--scored on average >>in >>>>>the low 80s (have to have a minimum of 70 to pass >>and >>>>>move on to the obedience portion of the trial). In >>>>>this, he was pretty consistent--especially >>>considering >>>>>he had a novice handler/owner working him. I once >>>>>worked him for several weeks prior to his trialing >>>for >>>>>his Sch I title and managed to get him a score in >>the >>>>>upper 80s. >>>>> >>>>>Obedience was another story--we were lucky to even >>>get >>>>>the minimal score of 70. And this was with almost >>two >>>>>full years of hard training. The send-away (voraus) >>>>>exercise was virtually non-existent as there was no >>>>>control over the dog once he was a certain distance >>>>>away from the handler. I finally resigned myself to >>>>>taking a severe penalty by "platzing" him when he >>had >>>>>moved no further than maybe ten feet away. >>>>> >>>>>His drive and courage and willingness to protect >and >>>>>attack during the protection portions was never in >>>>>question, however he was very slow to >>out--especially >>>>>so on the courage test when he was forty meters >away >>>>>from the handler. He was dismissed from the field >on >>>>>several occasions when he flat refused to out and >>his >>>>>owner had to choke him off the sleeve, which the >>>>>helper had slipped. >>>>> >>>>>But through perseverance and determination, we did >>>>>finally manage to put a Sch I on him after which >the >>>>>club (and the awarding judge) strongly recommended >>>>>retiring the dog as there was simply no way he was >>>>>ever going to get a Sch II. >>>>> >>>>>The AmStaff that we put a Sch II on was a horrid >>>>>tracker--had no interest at all, and you do not >>>>>force-track a dog like an AmStaff. For the record, >I >>>>>am not a proponent of force-tracking any dog, but I >>>>>have made rare exceptions over the years when the >>dog >>>>>was capable of scoring in the mid to high 90s >>>>>elsewhere in the trial. >>>>> >>>>>But this AmStaff simply did not "get it" when it >>came >>>>>to even the cursory basics of tracking. Other >>>AmStaffs >>>>>that came through the club displayed the same >>>>>tendencies. Generally, there was just no interest >>(or >>>>>drive) displayed by them on the tracking field. If >I >>>>>remember correctly, this particular dog never >scored >>>>>above a 75 on both occasions in which we put the >>>>>titles on her. >>>>> >>>>>Obedience was hot and cold--very inconsistent dog. >>>Her >>>>>owner was an experienced trainer and handler, and >>>>>pretty knowledgeable about the breed. Her other >>breed >>>>>was Boxers--another dog this day and age that is >>>>>difficult to put a schutzhund title on (even though >>>>>for the longest time in Germany, they were second >in >>>>>popularity only to the GSD for schutzhund work). >>>>> >>>>>This AmStaff's biggest problem in the obedience was >>>>>heeling on-leash--heeling off-leash was not a >>>problem, >>>>>but anytime she had a leash on her, it was a >>constant >>>>>tug. That is where she also lost the most points. >>The >>>>>retrieving exercises were iffy as well--although >her >>>>>ability to clear the brush hurdle and negotiate the >>>>>seven-foot wall was pure poetry in motion. >>>>> >>>>>But this dog's biggest problem in obedience was >>>>>maintaining the long down while the other dog was >>>>>executing its obedience routine. Depending on her >>>>>"mood," she was bad for breaking the long-down and >>>>>going after the other dog--especially during the >>>other >>>>>dog's long recall or send-away. >>>>> >>>>>We finally had to resort to the Tritronics e-collar >>>>>with a very high corrective setting and continuous >>>>>correction--often up to the full ten seconds. This >>>dog >>>>>had to be brought to her knees, shrieking before we >>>>>were finally able to have confidence that she could >>>>>maintain the long-down without going after the >other >>>>>dog. >>>>> >>>>>And again, this dog was owned by a woman >experienced >>>>>in both training and the breed. >>>>> >>>>>Her protection work was sharp, swift and >>>>>precise--right up until it was time to out the >>>sleeve. >>>>>Most dogs learn to out the sleeve fairly quickly >>once >>>>>that portion of the training is undertaken, but >both >>>>>of the bulldogs hated releasing the sleeve. We were >>>>>prepared for this, with them being bulldogs, but it >>>>>took a lot longer to get them ready for trial than >>it >>>>>did with the other (breeds of) dogs. >>>>> >>>>>Overall, while there are a handful of the bulldog >>>>>types that have managed to earn schutzhund titles >>>>>(none to my knowledge have ever earned a FR III or >>>>>made it through the Dutch Ring or French Campagne), >>>>>they are not a breed suited to that type of >training >>>>>or work. >>>>> >>>>>I share the opinion of many other working dog >>>trainers >>>>>who say that the "talents and abilities" of today's >>>>>bulldog breeds are very limited when compared to >the >>>>>same "talents and abilities" of other breeds from >>the >>>>>Working and Herding groups--and with a few >>>exceptions, >>>>>the Sporting Group (Labs, Goldens Weimeraners). >>>>> >>>>>But then again, today's Dachschund is pretty >limited >>>>>as well, as are a lot of breeds. >>>>> >>>>>Which is why I have never heard of working dogs or >>>>>herding dogs being referred to as "game," but >rather >>>>>as having strong drive. >>>>> >>>>>Funny thing in the Doberman world (AKC side of it, >>>>>that is) is there is a test done at Doberman >>>>>specialties called the Working Aptitude Evaluation >>>>>(WAE). The creator of that test is Vic Montelon who >>>is >>>>>well regarded in the DPCA. Vic breeds Dobermans >that >>>>>Europeans come over HERE to purchase and then take >>>>>back to Germany and France for schutzhund and ring >>>>>work. In other words, he breeds Dobermans with >>>correct >>>>>temperament. >>>>> >>>>>In the final portion of the WAE, the Doberman and >>its >>>>>handler are confronted by the "weird stranger" who >>>>>acts menacingly towards both the dog and the >>handler. >>>>>The dog is expected to show every indication that >he >>>>>is ready to mix it up with the weird stranger in >>>>>defense of both himself and his handler. If you >fail >>>>>that portion of the test, you fail the entire WAE. >>So >>>>>the dog isn't expected to show instant >>aggression--he >>>>>is required to. >>>>> >>>>>Yet, dog aggression will get you and your dog >>>>>dismissed from the grounds. Dog aggression that a >>>>>schutzhund or campagne judge deems threatening will >>>>>not only get you dismissed from the trial, but it >>can >>>>>also disqualify your dog from further competitions. >>>In >>>>>instances where such a dog actually does attack >>>>>another competing dog, it is not unusual for that >>dog >>>>>to be permanently barred from further competition >>and >>>>>its registration papers revoked. >>>>> >>>>>I admire a dog with strong drives--but only if that >>>>>dog also has the capacity to be under constant, >>>>>reliable voice-only control. If it doesn't, then it >>>is >>>>>of absolutely zero value to the working dog's >>world. >>>>> >>>>>--JD" >>>>> >>>>>http://www.sunshineband.org/cgi-bin/boards/dogpark. >p >>l >>>? >>>>r >>>>>ead=28655
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