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Subject: Universal Philosophy --- Help, I would like your input !!! Author: MarkM [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 22:24:38 01/04/04 Sun Below is two posts from another message board I post on. If you would please give me your imput on Jeff's response to cck, be it good, bad, or could have been said better. Thanks MarkM ================================================= cck Re: New Post -- Topical with above post. HAVE HOPE! Fri Jan 2 18:48:18 2004 216.107.35.251 Hello Jeff I am an Atheist. How does what you believe pertain to me? A Universal Philosophy must address and incorporate all philosophies and all beliefs. You believe in the Christian God, yet there still exist today many religions with a belief in a different God/s. I hope you realize that by the time someone gets to looking and finds this web site, and this discussion board, they have already examined not only the Christian Faith, but many many other beliefs and philosophies, and have found them all wanting. They are still in search of "Truth," or they most likely would not have made it to this discussion board. I am not disparaging your belief; as I said The Universal Philosophy must incorporate all other philosophies, I am just asking how what you believe pertains to The Universal Philosophy? ====================================================== Jeff You ask: How does what you believe pertain to me? Mon Jan 5 01:10:59 2004 207.94.117.11 A question and comment before I answer your question. RE: "I am an Atheist. How does what you believe pertain to me? A Universal Philosophy must address and incorporate all philosophies and all beliefs." This seems to be a statement that contradicts its self. Let me humbly explain. Atheists reject many of the worlds religious belief systems. If one as you declares that A Universal Philosophy "must"..."incorporate all"..."beliefs"..., then how can you remain a seeker of Universal Truth and remain a Atheist? By default an Atheist is out side the bounds and the concept of the standard you set forth: " A Universal Philosophy must address and incorporate all philosophies and all beliefs" which an Atheist does not, nor never will do. Because such belief inherently rejects many of the philosophies and beliefs found in the “Universe“. One could contend or say an Atheist is just as “closed mined” in its general philosophy and belief as a Christian is in their belief of a one “true“ God. Both hold to absolute beliefs. You asked me: “ I am just asking how what you believe pertains to The Universal Philosophy?” May I ask you first before I answer this below, how does what you believe (Atheism) pertain to finding A Universal Philosophy? Now as to why I even made a post here at all. I’m Jeff from the MOTU message board, who views you as one of my cyber-friends and I’m simply supporting your board by making a post. Next and more importantly much is implied in this statement: “Welcome to the World Embracing Hope Foundation's” As a Christian the concept of “Hope” is one of the three central themes found in our belief system. The three being -- Faith, Hope and Love. Love being the greatest one of all. I believe as a Christian I have much to offer in the area of giving hope to others and so I did as you requested: “This discussion board is intended as a means by which you can browse, share, and exchange perceptions and philosophies.” The fact that you and others have already examined not only the Christian Faith, but many many other beliefs and philosophies, and have found them all wanting does not mean or make you more superior in knowledge compared to others in searching for the truth who believe they have found it. Simply stated and in your own words “They are still in search of "Truth,". I know I can’t speak directly for you, but let me put forth this concept. People still in search of “Truth” view the “Truth” as not being "revealed", something of a mystery, a thing to be found. Thus, it must be searched for. Or maybe state of mind that evolves. Thus, making the search for "truth" a never ending search. In my opinion searching for a "truth" that evolves would be a complete waste of time, a grand exercise of vain ego. The Christian views the “Truth” as being already revealed to man, through Jesus Christ. Christ said: “I am the way, the “truth“, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” The exclusiveness of this statement is staggering; if there are many ways to God, Jesus is not one of them. Jesus also said (speaking of Himself and His teachings): “"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for many choose the way that leads to destruction. But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.” Therefore, I find it not surprising that many many are still in search of "Truth,". So to answer your question: “ I am just asking how what you believe pertains to The Universal Philosophy?” As a Christian I am a ambassador of the “truth”, the end your search for it. "A Universal Philosophy must address and incorporate all philosophies and all beliefs." Who says? Maybe this Universal Philosophy your looking for is so hard to find and is so elusive because such a philosophy is not based in truth but error? Be well my dear cyber friend! =============================================== So what you think? [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> Subject: Re: Universal Philosophy --- Help, I would like your input !!! Author: AB Randy Kemp [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 03:52:57 01/07/04 Wed OK. The statement that "a universal philosophy must incorporate all statements and believes" is incorrect. First of all, Christianity is not a philosophy - it is theology. But philosophy can aid theology - as a secondary discipline. See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/christiantheology-philosophy/ If you wish to see how philosophy can aid theology - and want to get into it deeply - then read Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by J.P. Moreland & William Lang Craig. You can purchase this at http://www.amazon.com. The postage is free, if you use their super saver option. Since this "atheist" friend is looking for the truth - or claims to do so - then may I recommend "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, which is also described and available at http://www.amazon.com. And I question the person's search of "a universal philosophy". If such a thing existed, then wouldn't "all" philosophers subscribe to it? AB Randy Kemp http://www.unlimitedgrace.net [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Here is his reply to me: A Damn good reply! 'O) Author: MarkM [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:43:41 01/07/04 Wed Hi Randy Boy you have some really good input here, thank you! I plan on passing along your suggestions to him as well as checking it out myself. Your statement: "Christianity is not a philosophy - it is theology. But philosophy can aid theology - as a secondary discipline." is a point I never thought of. As a matter of fact this very concept you stated is something I have run across with a few times this month. I even recall someone referring to Christ as a great philosopher. I'm going to have to really take a look at this. Boy, understanding the real difference between to two (Philosophy & Theology) is something I do need to get a grip on. Also the idea of: " But philosophy can aid theology - as a secondary discipline." YA! Never thought of it that way before, very interesting indeed. Well here was his reply to my post: -------------------------------- A Damn good reply! 'O) Hi Mark Yeah, I didn't check the ISP address, but I was pretty sure it was you. The problem I see with your answer is it is the same answer every Religion gives to the same question. There are many religious beliefs in the world, and each and every one believes theirs is the one and only true faith, and yet many are contradictory to each other. We cannot get much father apart than Christian and Atheist, yet I believe there must be a common ground we both can agree on. The reason our world is in the chaotic state it is today is because every belief is insisting They are the only truth and everyone else is wrong. We have had madmen militants murdering millions over ideology for many millennia, and they will continue to do so unless we all can find a common ground to stand on together. I have yet to meet two people, even two Christians, who believe the exact same thing. (BTW, I was once a Roman Catholic.) Just look at all the offshoots that exist today because they disagree on fundamental precepts. No two people believe the exact same thing. They may agree 99.9 percent, but they will not agree 100.0 percent. I will state it again; The Universal Philosophy must address all Beliefs, both Christian and Atheist, and everything in between! You say you have found the "Truth," and I say I have found the "Truth." You know you are right, and I know I am right, so why are our "Truths" are so completely different? There is where we must begin, by examining why we believe what we believe. But before we can ask others why, we must first examine our own minds and ask ourselves "Why do I believe what I believe?" "Where did my faith come from?" Please forgive me for ‘pushing your buttons' my friend. I couldn't resist! ‘O) Chuck -------------------------------------------- [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Here is his reply to me: A Damn good reply! 'O) Author: AB Randy Kemp [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 03:34:11 01/09/04 Fri Mark: OK. Let me give you a few words of advice. Your friend is playing the skeptic. And he will beat you every time – since you are on the defensive. Reverse this by asking him if he believes in an absolute or relative philosophical truth – especially where morals and ethics are concerned. Then keep questioning his position. Review the Christian discussion on relativism at http://www.carm.org/relativism.htm Randy [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Here is his reply to me: A Damn good reply! 'O) Author: AB Randy Kemp [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:02:03 01/09/04 Fri Hello Mark: Here's some other feedback I got from another Christian friend. Randy --------------------------------------------------------- Hello Randy, I'm not sure if I've ever commented on this subject here before but I think arguing with a sceptic or atheist is hopeless. Even when you point out to them that their position is in itself a leap of faith they will be either clueless or deny it outright. The sceptic could say there is no philosophical or moral truth. Period. The thoroughgoing sceptic could say that we create all meaning, that's it's all mind-dependent. Atheism is a complicated mind set. Atheists are usually dogmatists for a variety of reasons stemming from the problem of bad things happening to good people or the inability to see beyond appearances. Some people, either from environmental factors, family upbringing, or genetic predisposition, are unable to relate to anything metaphorical, allegorical, symbolic or transcendental. The atheist is often somewhere outside this range of this kind of awareness. Cf. the positivists of the early twentieth century. But for what I would call the artistic atheist, who seems to have some sense of the above, there is the dogmatic denial that some all-powerful, all-good, supreme being would allow such nasty things to happen to good people. Explanations of theodicy fall flat. There is a popular talk-show host in the Bay Area who is fond of saying, "The question of God is unimportant..." For him, the existence or non-existence of God makes no difference one way or the other; it doesn't change anything. This is probably the most disbelieving statement I've ever heard anyone make. You would think whatever would settle the question of ultimate truth or the meaning of life would be an important question - but not to this man. I have years of graduate study behind me and I simply am speechless in the face of such an attitude. Daniel [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Here is his reply to me: A Damn good reply! 'O) Author: AB Randy Kemp [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:06:11 01/09/04 Fri Mark: Matt Slick, who attended seminary and embraces protestant reformed theology, has a section on the christian response to atheism at http://www.carm.org/atheism.htm Randy [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Here is his reply to me: A Damn good reply! 'O) Author: Rev. Darwin [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:00:38 01/18/04 Sun I think Randy hit it on the head,He is playing the poor sceptic,also Mark when anyone start with " to me" or " you say" is simply asking a warped question there is no answer.The whole question is flawd. See yah Darwin [ Post a Reply to This Message ]