| Subject: Well done! |
Author:
ponyboy
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Date Posted: 05:46:48 02/24/02 Sun
In reply to:
phil
's message, "ok..." on 00:31:09 02/24/02 Sun
>how was punishment invented it must have been handed
>down from somewhere? it didnt just Pop up. again
>establishing a higher entity.
I tend to disagree. The survival of an individual or a group of indiviudals would be based on certain needs. These needs would have to be protected if the group were to optimize their chance for success (survival). Morality and morals would begin to take shape. Guilt would arise when an "immoral" act occurred. You're right though...only if caught, would cerrtain individauls feel guilt; their selfishness (need to survive) outweighs "the good of the group".
The immoral act would be defined, based on the needs of the group.....and thus, guilt would also vary from individual to individual....what if one person does not agree with one of the "protected" needs? So called leaders know that the needs would have to be protected....but these leaders are aware of the indiscretions of a few. Thus, a moral code is developed and "fear" of the consequences would soon take shape: thus, guilt of the moral, is born.
>> where does the idea of society come from?
>instinct? and if so are we instinctively punishing the
>guilty? and if so..... do other animals feel they
>have the right to punish their peers........ how far
>does this go?
I believe the above covers the first question. The idea of society keeps evolving, based on the needs of the individuals.....now add leaders, politicians, etc... and the recipe gets quite complex. I personally think instinct plays some role in all of this.....i.e. the instinct to reproduce, survive, and so on.
"Instinctively punishing the guilty?"......I think punishment is necessary for the good of any society. I can't imagine raising a child and not punishing him or her, to instill "proper" indoctrination, (as seen fit and defined by each parent).
As for animals: I offer up the behaviour of an alpha male wolf, who punishes a younger rival male if that younger male gets too close to a female in heat. Some instinct must tell the alpha male that it is "his" genes that must endure. This is speculative, as I don't think too much can ever be "concluded" about animals' behaviour.....we can't communicate with them at an appropriate level.
>>
>he did create this utopia but humans screwed it up by
>excersising free will and falling into
>temptation....... the first sin introduced guilt.... >
But, you are arguing from the point of view that "He" exists. I can't prove that He does or does not exist. We all have to try to think for ourselves and try to come up with what fits us best. I am an atheist. I honestly live a moral life and I believe the bible offers up what amounts to "a good way to live life and get along". In other words, a utopic society...and I agree that we screw this up. My soul will not be in the presence of God when I die, because I don't believe in Him? I will be in Hell....etc...., or whatever your spin is on this concept. This makes sense?
Considering all the facts and lack of evidence on both sides.....the default should be that there are atheists and non-atheists. Not Christians and non-Christians. This has to do with the burden of proof...proving the existence of God.
>but your dog committing the
>different act without you as its master would not feel
>guilty about doing whatever you deem as bad... since
>you are his master he feels guilt based on his
>punishment.
Good point...in my absence, I don't think my dog feels guilty. Does this not prove the idea, that the group (my family in this case) developed the ideas that optimize the success of the group and an individual may not agree with certain aspects of this "moral code"? The dog surely feels a part of the group and acts accordingly.
>who punished us? the monkeys who were our ancestors?>
Have you read any evolution theories? We did not evlove from monkeys. Even Darwin's original ideas have been modified a great deal because science has discovered so much information. The "tree" of evolution now resembles more of a "bush". When taken out of context, Creationists will argue that evolutionists change their arguments to suit their needs. I don't hink this is so.
I simply believe that science progresses and constantly answers questions......which raise new ones. So, does evolution or creationism explain what has happened here on earth? I feel evolution offers up enough information/evidence that it is at least plausible, possible and likely. Moreso, at least than a deity in the sky simply snapping its fingers and presto.
Is the adaptation of an insect to pesticide a form of evolution?....is it not close enough (if you disagree) that it explains some form of "change" in a living organism that allows it to survive; that maybe creationism should be looked at with a greater skeptical magnifying glass?
What about the blow hole of a whale? Both sides (creation vs evolution) will offer up an incredible version of what they think happened. Who do you believe?, because both sides cannot offer irrefutable evidence to prove their claims. Taken together with the pelvic bone of the whale (only needed for locomotion, as in: walking on land), the blow hole and the pelvic bone should at least make people more insistent on answers. But the masses simply listen to their leaders and say....it is so, God did it and it is good....Amen.
The fact that so many simply accept God's existence with so much research that seems to support either or neither side.....this tells me that people have always tended to simply believe what their "leaders" tell them. Or worse...accept what their leaders say as "fact"! This is why it is actually called" "FAITH".
What do you say to a pedophile priest the day after he married you? Are his arguments and belief system now in question?......actually....they never seem to be, do they?
Televangelists?!......they sleep with prostitutes and ask for more money to get through the horrible temptation that Satan delevered onto them......THEY PROFIT from there indiscretions. .......but I'm going to Hell!???
>p.s. i enjoy debating with you i am learning from you
>as i hope you are learning from me... keep posting.
Thanks Phil......I rambled on this time....sorry! The mood struck me.
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