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Date Posted: 15:04:01 10/03/04 Sun
Author: Chris
Subject: Hi, Jim (don't be too harsh, Nick)
In reply to: Nick T. 's message, "Jim, ubf is a cult. Why are you here?" on 13:26:57 10/03/04 Sun

Nick, I think you should'n be too harsh with Jim. As far as I see he hasn't read much about UBF and know only very little about its background and constant abuse going on over 4 decades now.

Jim, thanks for posting anyway. But I think you should get the facts straight first and educate yourself about a) UBF's history and b) cult mind control in general.

Did you ever read The open letter of 1976? If not, please do so. Yes, people sound a little bit frustrated and condemning. But that's no wonder regarding a group that rejects any criticism for 40 years now!

Another point: As a response to UBF criticism, you start to ask the critics what they are doing. Please start to separate these things, they have nothing to do with each other. Even if all UBF critics were a bunch of lazy unbelievers, what would this change if their criticism of UBF was legitimate? Second, understand that UBF critics are coming from different backgrounds, some even are unbelievers (often the disappointment with UBF spiritual abuse made them unbelievers! UBF has left a horrible trace of "spiritual victims"), most are Bible-believing Christians, but all of us are very different, and we are engaged in Chrisitan ministry in very different areas and to very different extends. You simply cannot put all of us in one bag labeled "UBF critics." Third, your immediate question "what are you doing" indicates that you are already infected with UBF "salvation by works" or even "justification by works" ideology. If somebody is doing, he is already "right", and if he is not doing anything (which is not true for most of us) he is already "wrong." Please be aware that this is a fallacy. UBF has much to do with "zeal without knowledge," or "doing without knowing," often under the excuse of "laymanship." But the Bible is not very fond of "zeal without knowledge."

Also, you seem to believe another fallacy, that Christians should simply "forgive and forget" anything and never criticize. Yes, usually Christians should forgive and forget. But you also know that forgiveness requires repentance. UBF has been unrepentent for 40 years now. Christians should not forgive and forget every sin that happens in the church. The church is a holy place, though made of sinners. Please read 1 Cor 5 in this context. Please note that Paul even says "Are you not to judge those inside?" It is a misunderstanding of the Biblical word "Do not judge, and you will not be judged." to believe that a Christian should never and in no case judge anything. In some cases Christians are even required to judge, and in a certain sense we should judge everything. Jesus also said: "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?" Or again Paul: "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?" or "Test everything!" Start to understand that "judging" has different aspects and is not all are bad, in some situations and certain aspects, judging is a necessity for a Christian. It is a typical fallacy all cults are using to conclude that "criticism = judging = wrong."

Also obvserve that is the constant "business" of UBF leaders and "shepherds" to judge over UBF sheep and UBF "apostates." As so often, UBF does not even practice what they preach when they say "don't judge" or "don't criticize." Or, they have simply two measure sticks.

Oh, and Jim, please be aware that there are two kinds of posting to the board: Clicking on "post a new message" will always open a new discussion thread. Whenever possible, you should simply post a reply to an already existing message, so the postings will be kept together in discussions threads on the same topic and everything will be a bit more clearly arranged; it is confusing enough anyway. Don't be scared too much by frustrated ex UBF members. We are all simply more or less frustrated by the behavior of UBF leaders who reject any repentence and reform over 4 decades now.

Most of us still love and care for the rank-and-file members such as you are. Even if some conclude that "UBF needs to be destroyed" they don't hate UBF members. They just hate the unbiblical UBF system. This system should be destroyed, and the good intents of UBF members used in a better and healthier way for the glory of God.

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