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Date Posted: 11:59:15 05/26/04 Wed
Author: Holy Cross 1965
Subject: Holy Cross Baseball

With a new coach teamed with a storied history, what direction do people see the HC baseball team heading. Recruits? Scheduling? The Patriot League? I'd like to hear about the direction of baseball on the hill.

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Replies:

[> Re: Holy Cross Baseball -- HCFAN, 16:48:08 05/26/04 Wed

To HC 1965, do you really think that they will up-grade the baseball program? The basketball and football teams are the only money producing teams on campus and they will not even put any effort into improving or trying to get into a better league. The AD has to go, it's that simple.

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[> [> Re: Holy Cross Baseball -- StopReganBashing, 17:42:03 05/26/04 Wed

Stop your Dick Regan bashing. HC is headed in the right direction. He trying his best to upgrade with limited means.

Obviously you are not paying attention because both the football and the basketball teams are losing money. Football is just an expensive sport with a lot of players, equipment, coaches, etc. In regards to basketball, take 12 full rides at $40,000 (480,000), four full-time coaches ($300,000 for Willard and 3 x $40,000 for the assistants= $420,000). That is $900,000 before a game is played. Travel, equipment etc just adds on and HC does't come close to selling out or have a tv contract.

So essentially there are no mone producing teams on campus

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[> [> [> Re: Holy Cross Baseball -- BBFAN, 06:02:35 05/27/04 Thu

HCFAN is right on the money, Regan is not the right man for the AD job.

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[> [> Re: Holy Cross Baseball -- cf rivals, 20:49:11 05/26/04 Wed

HC in the PL will always lose $$ in FB and BB.

In all fairness 1AA FB is a losing proposition no matter where you are. BB is a different story. If HC is spending that much for coaches in the PL, it's like buying a BMW and not having the $$ to put gas in it and it sits in the driveway.

You don't keep doing things halfway! Reading the press so far in hockey, you can see the halfway mentality. "We want it but, we are happy where we are, we want to compete at a higher level, but we don't know if we want to add scholarships" YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

The present attitude at HC is Eletist=Defeatist. Eletist, because HC always thinks they are too good for everybody, and Defeatist because thay don't think they are good enough?? Makes no sense..

As a fan this is very disturbing, Alums, must feel worse.

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[> [> [> not this alum-sorry -- hchoops, 21:44:17 05/26/04 Wed

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[> [> [> wrong again, CF -- lou, 07:12:32 05/27/04 Thu

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[> Holy Cross /PL Baseball - not serious -- purplehaze, 08:40:17 05/27/04 Thu

if you follow college baseball, you will note that most leagues (amer east/ big east/ maac / atl 10 etc..)are having their championship tourneys this weekend, with the first round of the ncaa next weekend. b u t, our patriot league has a '4 week' break for the winner of our league before they play their ncaa game(s). the other leagues (with the exception of the ivy) continue to play thru the 3rd weekend in may, (only weekends since exam time).
the ncaa backed up the college world series week one week later into june, a couple of years ago, and therefore most leagues extended their regular seasons to last weekend.
if our league was serious, they wud eliminate a ridiculous 4 week gap for the winner (army this year) and play into mid may, of course, with all consideration given to exam time.

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[> Re: Holy Cross Baseball -- HC1990, 00:17:37 05/29/04 Sat

I have heard rumors that the football program produces the greatest financial loss out of any team at the college. The basketball team earns $1 million for each trip to the Big Dance. The attendance at games has dramatically increased in the past 10 years whereas the football team can barely fill up 10 percent of the stadium. I have also heard from my cousin who is enrolled there that the students really have no interest in the football team. She consistently comments about cocky players' attitudes and their recent unsuccessful years as the main reason for student attendance declining. What is the overall alumni opinion about the football program? Is there a plan to remove it if these losses continue?

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[> [> Re: To HC1990 -- NTKHC64, 10:37:54 05/29/04 Sat

1. "I have heard rumors that the football program produces the greatest financial loss out of any team at the college."
It has been admitted by the athletic director, inter alia, that the football program is operated at a deficit of at least $2,000,000 per annum. This has been mentioned almost 2,000,000 times on this board.

2. "The basketball team earns $1 million for each trip to the Big Dance." Highly overstated.

3. Basketball attendance is up in recent years. I'll leave it to those who attend more frequently to opine as to "dramatically" over a 10 year period.

4. Football atttendance: 6884 per home game 2004. This is based on data from the HC website. Harvard attendance was 10,312 and Colgate 10,166. Colgate had the largest road following at Fitton Field this season.

5. Student interest: Based on games I've attended over the past 6 years, it's not there. The students aren't.

6. Players' attitudes: No knowledge.

7. Overall alumni opinion...There are 28,000 living alumni. Who knows?

8. Removal of program: I infer from the hiring of Tom Gilmore that there is a strong interest in maintaining the program. IMO, if he can't bring it back, I believe there would be definite consideration given to its discontinuance but that is solely a personal opinion. Remember that in 2006 there will be the decennial review of athletics.

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[> [> Re: To HC1990 -- NTKHC64, 10:38:20 05/29/04 Sat

1. "I have heard rumors that the football program produces the greatest financial loss out of any team at the college."
It has been admitted by the athletic director, inter alia, that the football program is operated at a deficit of at least $2,000,000 per annum. This has been mentioned almost 2,000,000 times on this board.

2. "The basketball team earns $1 million for each trip to the Big Dance." Highly overstated.

3. Basketball attendance is up in recent years. I'll leave it to those who attend more frequently to opine as to "dramatically" over a 10 year period.

4. Football atttendance: 6884 per home game 2004. This is based on data from the HC website. Harvard attendance was 10,312 and Colgate 10,166. Colgate had the largest road following at Fitton Field this season.

5. Student interest: Based on games I've attended over the past 6 years, it's not there. The students aren't.

6. Players' attitudes: No knowledge.

7. Overall alumni opinion...There are 28,000 living alumni. Who knows?

8. Removal of program: I infer from the hiring of Tom Gilmore that there is a strong interest in maintaining the program. IMO, if he can't bring it back, I believe there would be definite consideration given to its discontinuance but that is solely a personal opinion. Remember that in 2006 there will be the decennial review of athletics.

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[> [> Chiming in on HC "revenue" sports -- sader1970, 17:12:09 05/29/04 Sat

I agree that the football program's long-term future depends on whether or not Tom Gilmore can put the pieces back together after more than a decade of decline. I can't speak from firsthand experience but have also heard that some of the football players are perceived to have an "attitude" problem vis-a-vis them and the rest of the campus at large. In the past 5 years, the attendance of the student body at home games was nothing short of pathetic. Alumni and local supporters were hard to come by too. When you have a very large stadium, like Fitton Field, 6,000 bodies makes the stadium look awful empty. If Colgate indeed averaged over 10,000, that had to be wall to wall standing room only at Andy Kerr (which I always thought looked like a glorified high school field). To Coach Gilmore's credit, he's running all over the place to stir up interest and get people to the games in the '04 season. I'll be the first one to jump on the bandwagon to get rid of the football program if Coach Gilmore doesn't show significant progress in the next 4-5 years. And my definition of "significant progress" is coming in 1st or 2nd in the PL on a pretty consistent basis - not moving up to #4 or #5. The school just can't afford to lose all that money because it is NOT positive advertising to be league doormats year after year. I'm a business guy - you need return on your investment. The football program has not brought the alumni back to the school and/or made them feel all warm and fuzzy to make larger contributions; the students couldn't care less; the team has not projected a positive image of the school that would attract new quality students. The players are not losers but the program certainly has been.

As for basketball attendance, I've been going to the games regularly the last 4-5 seasons. Before that, my son was attending HC and the attendance for the ladies games in those days were better than the men's games. That's not the case now. I don't have any official numbers but my perception is that there was a marked decline in attendance last year compared to the previous 3-4 years. Both the men's and ladies teams were frustrating to watch because one always had the feeling they were better than they achieved. The student interest dropped like a stone as the season progressed as in the beginning of the season there seemed to be residual interest from the prior year's success. I feel a lot more comfortable that the BB team had an off-year and will come back strong next season. The football program will take a lot more work.

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[> [> [> Re: Men's Basketball Home Attendance -- NTKHC64, 20:11:47 05/29/04 Sat

Reported on the website as averaging 2,548 per game. No like data found for women.

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[> [> [> [> Re: Women's Basketball Home Attendance -- DFW HOYA, 20:43:35 05/29/04 Sat

The NCAA posts attendance figures at its web site. No data for 2004 yet, but here's the 2003 totals:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_basketball/attendance/2002-03/d1.pdf

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Women's Basketball Home Attendance -- bikeman, 21:33:20 05/29/04 Sat

Worcester, and area towns, support HC atheletics. At least they used to. It's not HC. It's the Patriot League. This fraud of a division 1 league fools no one but the HC administration. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Leave the PL. Bring back traditional, regional rivalries and watch the interest and revenues rise thru the roof. ANYONE who thinks otherwise HAS NOT A CLUE.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Women's Basketball Home Attendance-2002-03 -- NTKHC64, 09:20:10 05/30/04 Sun

The average attendance reported at the site provided is 1,972. This put Holy Cross, at 57 out of 322, and # 1 in the PL. Bucknell ranked 2nd in the PL with 1,258, #101. Holy Cross however ranked ahead of a substantial number of "big time" schools. Take a look and see the schools.For example at #58 is UCLA at 1,925.

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[> [> [> [> is there a realistic league for these rivalries? -- clueless, 21:49:48 05/29/04 Sat

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[> [> [> Andy Kerr Stadium -- Gate Raider, 23:14:55 05/31/04 Mon

Sader1970, it appears it may have been some time since you were at Colgate's football stadium. Perhaps you have not seen the relatively new Fred Dunlap stand, the new aluminium bleachers on the visitor's side and the new press box which was completed last summer. You can'g get a bad seat in the Dunlap stands which are elevated above the field and then rise quite high. Come on down to next year's game and check it out.

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[> [> [> [> Thanks for the invitation -- sader1970, 09:15:12 06/01/04 Tue

You're right, I haven't been to Andy Kerr since my days living in central NY (Syracuse area - average snowfall 120" a year). I left there in 1987. It sounds like the Raiders have done good things to the stadium, no doubt in anticipation of the upgrade in football. If I'm ever crazy enough to get up that way when there's not a threat of snow (i.e. September through April), I'll take you up on the invitation.

I've been to Colgate on 3-4 occasions over the years and it's a very beautiful campus - ALMOST, but not quite, as nice as Holy Cross'.

With the exception that HC is a Catholic college, Colgate comes closest in size, academic standing and long-term sports competition to qualify for the title "rivals" with the Cross. I hope HC gets into the ECAC to play you guys (and ladies) in hockey to add to the rivalry.

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[> [> [> [> Com'n now -- Gate Raider, 00:21:36 06/09/04 Wed

There is little chance of snow until late November and Hamilton doesn't get nearly as much as Syracuse. They even stopped operating the on campus ski slope because of iffy snow without snow making abilitiy. If you come be sure to stop in at O'connor Campus Center (the Coop) at the top of the hill. It was refurbished last year and is spectacular. You can warm yourself at the huge circular fireplace while having something hot to drink and wondering why HC can't beat 'gate. BTW I was at the Cross - Gate FB game last year, a beautiful day to conclude our 12-0 season and break alot of rushing records as well. Hope you are in the ECAC, also. I'm still not over the loss to Clarkson in the tournament.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Agree with Gate Raider -- Go...'gate, 19:14:51 06/11/04 Fri

Hope HC joins the ECAC and you really need to visit the upgraded Andy Kerr; a tremendous improvement from when I was there.

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[> Re: Holy Cross Baseball -- matunuck, 09:43:46 06/09/04 Wed

if the team is bad is it any surprise no one shows up -- in the mid to late 80s attendance was far better (even against the Ivies) and much of the campus tailgated with friends, family before going into the game -- the atmosphere was great, especially on a crisp fall day -- football was very much part of the school and it was a nice balance to the academic grind -- HC football has been around for over 100 years -- I hate to see tossed overboard -- I do believe, though, that the key to success must include substantial endowment growth --According to the recent HC mag, I believe they've added more full-time personnel to accomplish this. Fr. McFarland has mentioned endowment growth many times and call me crazy but I do think HC athletics in general may be turning the corner so to speak.

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[> [> Endowment...Is HC really cash-strapped anymore? -- HC1843, 09:55:01 06/09/04 Wed

While our endowment is in absolute terms smaller than Georgetown's edowment and BC's endowment, are we not actually a richer school endowment-wise per capita? While Georgetown actually has a reason to cry poor these days, BC seemingly does not and is not doing so. Why then does HC continue to do so? Or maybe it is just me and I am holding on to the image presented when I was a student.

When I attended HC our endowment ranged from 150-175 million. When I asked then President Reedy a financial question he explained why HC at that time was in a tight financial situation. I agreed with his reasoning then about the school at that time. Now that almost 9 years has passed since I asked that question and with financial reports indicating that HC's endowment is now over $400 million and growing, with added support from the LHTC Campaign and rebounding financial markets, why is the school still selling the cash-strapped college image. Sure there have been some increased costs, but all in all it would seem to me that HC should be in and is in a much better financial position. Can someone please explain what I am missing. Also, is it true that since tuition is a large source of the college's capital that the increased tuition rates over the past 9-10 years have offset the increased salaries, etc, etc...?

Thoughts...

Cheers.

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[> [> [> Re: Endowment...HC really cash-strapped anymore? -- matunuck, 10:38:07 06/09/04 Wed

You're exactly right. I've posted the endowment numbers of the Catholic schools a couple of months ago and we're far ahead of most them in absolute terms, let alone per capita. That said, endowment growth is necessary to, for example, carrying out robust capital projects and increase our relative standing in US News. Our "faculty resources" number is a big factor in our current position. Yes, I know. Who cares about our ranking? I do for a variety of reasons -- related to academics and athletics -- that I won't get into.

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[> [> Re: 'Poor' Holy Cross vs. others -- Rick, 11:18:28 06/09/04 Wed

Good info/thoughts by both of you....

I'm confident the 3 of us could come up with a fairly extensive list of schools that do more for their athletic programs WITH LESS resources than HC has at it's disposal.

EXAMPLE : Hart Center was built over 25 years ago and yet the original chair-back seats are just NOW being replaced. The original wooden floor bleachers should have been replaced 10 YEARS AGO with modern aluminum/composite plastic fold/roll away seats. The original interior orange/white color scheme LONG AGO should have been replaced with a purple/gray/white scheme.

Talk about differed maintenance !!

Someone here recently mentioned the horrid condition of the tennis court surfaces.

How about the softball field....up to even Junior High School standards ?

Hart Center rink ? That's akin to an auxilary/practice rink at most town/county run rinks let alone being up to snuff with ECAC level venues.

Fitton Field - the renovation in the mid-1980's brought the facility up to 1970 standards ! Someone mentioned here over the winter that OUR TEAM dresses for games up at the Fieldhouse and is then BUSSED down to Fitton FOR LACK OF A LOCKER ROOM at Fitton....THAT is ridiculous !!!

....end of latest rant.

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