Re: NOT Rubbish! -- Utah's Religion Debate

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Date Posted: 20:37:54 02/19/06 Sun
Author: Sheepdog
Subject: Re: NOT Rubbish!
In reply to: Sound Mind 's message, "Re: NOT Rubbish!" on 13:35:53 02/17/06 Fri

SD: This is the definition that I found for the word �Belief�.

1: any cognitive content held as true; 2: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed;

People believe all sorts of things ARE true when they ARE NOT true. So these false beliefs can be called guesses. Faith is a hope in things that are true. But, there is such a thing as having a belief and a hope in something that is totally false. Is it still true faith? No. It�s a bad guess and holds a lot of disappointment for the person relying on it.
Paul was a religious man who believed in God but did not �believe� Christ was the Son of God. He fought against his followers. He guessed he was right. He had a firm belief he was right. He had faith that he was right. He was not right. He had guessed wrong. When he witnessed for himself and heard for himself from Christ�s own lips, he no longer held onto his former guesses.
After hearing from Jesus for himself, he no longer had to rely on beliefs for or against Jesus. He had replaced false beliefs with knowledge. Some people guess right and their good guess leads them to more knowledge which suports their true faith and true beliefs.

My point to you is... You guess that Mormonism is not of God. It�s what you want to believe and so you do. It is not because God has come to you in a vision or even inspired you at all about it.
My comment on this is... If you�d had an experience like Pauls and could speak with knowledge on the subject, fine, I�d listen. But you have no such witness from God on the subject. So, why should I care what your guess is? On the other hand, I know hundreds of upright people, who are lovers of God, who would rather die than lie, who live what they believe, who have indeed had experiences like Paul when it comes to this faith. They will swear to all that is holy that what has happened to them is the truth. I believe them. I believe them because it is the same for me and I know that I am not lying about what I have seen and heard for myself from God.
I could say that I believe in the power of prayer, but the truth is that I have actual knowledge about the power of prayer.
I could say that I believe in the resurrection and in life after death, but the truth is that I have been given proof that their truly is life after death.
I believed it for about 30 years before the belief/faith in it was verified.
There are many things I firmly believe in, that may turn out to be a little off because I haven�t received any actual knowledge on the subject but have put together pieces that seem to fit. I try to be careful to use the word �believe� and not �know� in these instances.

**Additionally:
Let's examine The Bible where it states that ...whoever "BELIEVES" in Christ... is God saying that all you have to do is just "guess" that He is Lord? According to that verse, you don't need to KNOW anything.
SD: If you had read the whole of what I wrote, you would not have hyper reacted to my statements. I clearly wrote that knowledge about God begins with a belief.
Christ said �believe and follow�. He also promises some rewards/proof if a person will give this belief a chance.
Same as He does with, this, His Church.

**t as your whole faith is built upon the foundation of semantic twistings of The BIBLE, your "arguments" display a microcosm of that environment.
SD: Thats a �belief� of yours, which you have not learned from God.

**And just like your Mormon faith, you consistently contradict yourself. I just wish you could see it for yourself and break free. Maybe one day... God willing...
SD: God is not willing. I have asked Him and He has spoken and there is nothing that can pry my body or soul from it. It is a priceless gift and I will forever be grateful that His gospel and Government is back on the earth, just as He promised it would be.

**Belief and Know are interchangable here.
SD: Oh no they are not. There is a huge difference in �beliefs� which can be wrong guesses and �knowledge� which is based in truth. There is a huge difference in beliefs and false beliefs, that�s all I�m saying. Read again what I wrote about Paul�s experience with beliefs and knowledge. Sometimes we know things and, sure, we say that we �believe� them. But in reality we know them and don�t simply believe them.
I say that you have no real knowledge about what Mormonism is to God, that�s all.

**Point being:

When you tell me to judge not lest I be judged, in calling you brainwashed, you fail to recognize that by default you "BELIEVE, KNOW, HAVE FAITH" that very same thing about me and every other non-Mormon on the planet.
You may not come out and say it, but since you "KNOW" you are right it follows that you "KNOW" everyone else is wrong. So before you call me out for being a harsh judge, KNOW that you are the exact same. GET IT?

SD: I never said that you were a harsh judge. I said you were a false judge. Get it? The difference between you and me is that you think I am offended at your harshness/false judgment, but you are the only one here that is offended because this is personal for you. I am not offended because I am not here to say that I am smarter than you or more special than you. It is not personal for me and I do not care what you think of me personally. My motive is only to defend my Lord and challenge you to believe in Him enough to trust that he could show you who the Mormons truly are and then you would not have to guess at it.
I do indeed know that you are wrong, yet it gives me no personal pride to know it. I�m not ashamed to say any of this because it is the truth. I only wish you would approach the living God about it. I do not really �believe� that you ever will, but there may be someone out there reading this that will and that is the only reason I debate the issue with you.
You say I�m wrong. I say you�re wrong.
Now can we discuss what �proof� is and where it is found?

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