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Date Posted: 16:21:31 01/09/02 Wed
Author: multiple
Subject: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?
In reply to: rsqarchive 's message, "January 2001" on 10:32:30 01/09/02 Wed


Author: ubf
Subject: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

As it looks increasingly likely that the current UBF leadership will step down or be displaced, perhaps we should start praying and searching God's word about what a post-reform UBF should be like? I was wondering what others thought about changes that should be made that would be Biblical and beneficial? What should remain the same and what should be changed?

Author: Hoot
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

I seriously doubt that SL will step down. The best that we in Chicago can hope for is that the stress of being "persecuted" at such an unprecedented level will take it's toll on his already feeble health. If that is what it takes for him to be displaced, then so be it, and may God's will be done. But if he clings to his absolute power like all who have been absolutely corrupted by absolute power have done, we may end up in a situation in which Chicago is cut off from the rest of the world like North Korea. It will be a sad situation indeed. But for the rest of the UBF world, I think the changes that are needed have been pretty clearly expressed by the Korean and American (and soon German) Declarations. UBF should be controlled and owned by Christ and the body of believers, not by one man. Finances should be handled in the daylight, not in darkness. The soul- and heart-shrinking numbers emphasis must be done away with! UBF must end its exclusivism and establish ties with other churches and evangelical
organizations.

Author: ubf
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

I meant more concretely? Should UBF remain authoritarian in its structure? Should it become presbyterian, (ruled by elders & deacons), should it be congregational, (ruled by the congregation)? Should we keep on calling each other "shepherds"? Where should the headquarters be? Will each branch be independent or subordinate to a main branch? Will "marriage by faith" remain or will young people be allowed to marry on their own? Or will their be some new way?

I think this is all relevent. Are there any Reformation scholars out their who know how the Reformed Church worked these things out many years ago?

Author: Amateur historian
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

Unfortunately, history has shown that when an authoritarian power structure crumbles, factions start popping up very quickly. Look at the former Soviet Union, and how the various ethnic groups within it have begun to war against each other (also notice how there's a strong pro-communist movement within Russia itself-- Just like the Israelites who longed for the pots of meat in Egypt when they were finally free in the wilderness...).

Or, as ubf mentioned, look at the Reformation. Out of it came many different branches of Christianity: the Anabaptists, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, and the Anglicans. There was no united church that came out of the Reformation. And in fact, the rivalry and hatred that existed between these different factions were at times greater than between the Protestants and Catholics! And sad to say, throughout the history of the Protestant church, splintering and splitting has been more the norm than uniting and reconciling.

I have a feeling that despite the Reform
movement going on throughout the world, UBF will ultimately be divided into reform and anti-reform factions, those against Samuel Lee and those loyal to him. Undoubtably Chicago and other chapters led by loyalists will stick with the Lee faction. And who knows if there will be other factions popping up too within the Reform faction (pro-"marriage by faith" vs. anti-"marriage by faith", etc, etc)?

Author: ubf
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

Yes, I believe you are right. There will be inevitable splintering. Too bad it had to be done this way rather than through talking and praying together. But even the splintering is not bad. So many wonderful and different types of groups came out that could express Christ and the Gospel in many different ways. "Unless a kernal of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains only a single seed, but if it dies it produces many seeds." What was left of the Catholic church remains to this day, but the living Gospel is unquestionably passed through the reformed churches that passed through her. It will probably be similar with UBF. There will be the dead center but the Christians in the Reformed chapters will go on to develop and grow in newer ways in Christ. Given that, I will take the splintered reformers any day.

Author: Hoot
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

I'm afraid this won't be any more concrete since I'm not all that interested in the particulars of a reformed UBF. But when the root cause of our problems steps down or is displaced, many things should fall into place. Samuel Lee has manipulated the authoritarian structure for all its worth. No more authoritarianism, please. All elements of Confucianism should leave with Samuel Lee. I am a Korean, but this is America, and I don't want anyone (unless they're my parents) in the future UBF commanding me to do anything, no matter how old they are and how long they've been there. This should be a fellowship of love and grace. Also, we need to lose the titles in a more egalitarian UBF. Mr., Mrs., Pastor (if we have one), and Dr. (if one is an MD) should suffice. Given our experience, I feel uncomfortable about subordinate branches and think that branches should be independent. Young people should be free to marry in the way they choose, whether it is "by faith" or not; in either case, the UBF leadership should not
meddle. Marriages should be based on the input of the man and woman, parents and God. The following may sound petty, but other things that Samuel Lee should take with him: charts of any kind, cookie-cutter testimonies, eye-lid surgeries, perms, 3pm worship services, 7am worship services, supplementary worship services, message "performances," message training, walking training, eating training, diet training, praying to have a son instead of a daughter, big production Christmas worship services, sewing team sweat shops every Christmas, Christmas and Conference dancing, offering police, Americans speaking Konglish, Mark Yoon.

Author: ubf
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

Hoot, I think what you said is very concrete and I agree with all of it. Did people really have to get eye-lid surgery? And what are the "offering police"? I never heard of them before. What do they do?

Author: Amateur historian
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

ubf, you haven't been around Chicago very long, have you? :)

Some Koreans think that having "san-ka-pul", a more Western-looking eyelid, is more beautiful than the typical East Asian eyelid (perhaps a blatant form of inferiority complex? -- I'm Korean myself, so don't think I'm being racist...). So they have plastic surgery done to artificially create it. Unfortunately, it's pretty easy to spot a fake one and it just doesn't look very nice. Yes, Samuel Lee has ordered Koreans to have this procedure done-- probably for the same strange reasons why he had others (including men) get perms and wear beige suits.

As for offering police, if you're higher up in the UBF hierarchy, you're required to give a certain amount each month or week, or you're harassed by Lee or his cronies.

I agree that Lee won't step step down for as long as he's physically able to keep control over Chicago. It really is too bad for reform-minded Chicago members.

Author: Amateur historian
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

Hoot, your list of complaints definitely isn't petty. They're the exact list of things that would prevent me from inviting any of the friends that I care about to come and join UBF, or even to visit. I would be very ashamed when they see that I actually attend a church like that.

As for independent branches, I would warn that it's too easy to go the opposite extreme of absolute independence, where there's no accountability to a higher authority -- that seems to be one of the reasons why Lee has gotten so crazy and outrageous in his demands on people; he has no one he has to be accountable to (except God, but that'll have to wait until after his death). There has to be a balance: Accountability to a higher power/authority as well as the freedom to resist corrupt authority. Too bad it's so hard to get that balance right!

Author: Hoot
Subject: Re: What kind of post-Reform UBF should there be?

A few more things that Samuel Lee should take with him: emphasis on fishing "North American" (meaning white) sheep, emphasis on fishing HNWs ("Holy Nation Women" = white women), other forms of blatant racism.

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  • Will The Old Toenails Be Restored? -- multiple, 16:23:36 01/09/02 Wed
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