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Date Posted: 11:13:03 02/23/02 Sat
Author: Rook Hawkins
Subject: Wayne H. Aaland on 'Re: Reply to - Jesus quotes the Scriptures'
>A couple of parting thoughts - take care, Wayne
>
>In reference to the prophecy that Jesus would rise on the third day?
>
>I do not know the answer to this question, but would propose the Hosea
>reference as a possible solution - I am sure you will let me know what you
>think?
>
>Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise
>us up, and we shall live in his sight.
>
>The following commentaries are given to corroborate the reference.
>
>From John Gill Expositors:
>Ver. 2. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us
>up, &c.] The Jews, in their present state, are as dead men, both in a civil
>and spiritual sense, and their conversion and restoration will be as life
>from the dead; they are like persons buried, and, when they are restored,
>they will be raised out of their graves, both of sin and misery; see #Ro
>11:15 Eze 37:11-14; the time of which is here fixed, after two days, and on
>the third; which Jarchi interprets of the two temples that have been
>destroyed, and of the third temple to be built, which the Jews expect, but
>in vain, and when they hope for good times: Kimchi explains it of their
>three captivities, in Egypt, Babylon, and the present one, and so Ben
>Melech, from which they hope to be raised, and live comfortably; which sense
>is much better than the former: and with it may be compared Vitringa's {s}
>notion of the text, that the first day was between Israel's coming out of
>Egypt and the Babylonish captivity; the second day between that and the
>times of Antiochus, which was the third night; then the third day followed,
>which is the times of the Messiah: but the Targum comes nearer the truth,
>which paraphrases the words thus,
>
>"he will quicken us in the days of consolation which are to come, and in the
>day of the resurrection of the dead he will raise us up;"
>
>where by days of consolation are meant the days of the Messiah, with which
>the Jews generally connect the resurrection of the dead; and if we
>understand them of the last days of the Messiah, it is not much amiss; for
>the words respect the quickening and raising up of the Jews in the latter
>day, the times of Christ's spiritual coming and reign: and these two and
>three days may be expressive of a long and short time, as interpreters
>differently explain them; of a long time, as the third day is a long time
>for a man to lie dead, when there can be little or no hope of his reviving,
>#Lu 24:21; or of a short time, for which two or three days is a common
>phrase; and both true in this case: it is a long time Israel and Judah have
>been in captivity, and there may seem little hope of their restoration; but
>it will be a short time with the Lord, with whom a thousand years are as one
>day, and one day as a thousand years: and this I take to be the sense of the
>words, that after the second Millennium, or the Lord's two days, and at the
>beginning of the third, will be the time of their conversion and
>restoration, reckoning from the last destruction of them by the Romans; for
>not till then were Israel and Judah wholly in a state of death: many of
>Israel were mixed among those of Judah before the Babylonish captivity, and
>many returned with them from it; but, when destroyed by the Romans, there
>was an end of their civil and church state; which will both be revived on a
>better foundation at this period of time: but if this conjecture is not
>agreeable (for I only propose it as such), the sense may be taken thus, that
>in a short time after the repentance of Israel, and their conversion to the
>Lord, they will be brought into a very comfortable and happy state and
>condition, both with respect to things temporal and spiritual;
>
>and we shall live in his sight; comfortably, in a civil sense, in their own
>land, and in the possession of all their privileges and liberties; and in a
>spiritual sense, by faith on Jesus Christ, whom they shall now embrace, and
>in the enjoyment of the Gospel and Gospel ordinances; and the prophet
>represents the penitents and faithful among them as believing and hoping for
>these things. This may be applied to the case of sensible sinners, who, as
>they are in their natural state dead in sin, and dead in law, so they see
>themselves to be such when awakened; and yet entertain a secret hope that
>sooner or later they shall be revived and refreshed, and raised up to a more
>comfortable state, and live in the presence of God, and the enjoyment of his
>favour. The ancient fathers generally understood these words of Christ, who
>was buried on the sixth day, lay in the grave the whole seventh day, and
>after these two days, on the third, rose again from the dead; and to this
>passage the apostle is thought to have respect, #1Co 15:3; and also of the
>resurrection of his people in and with him, and by virtue of his: and true
>it is that Christ rose from the dead on the third day, and all his redeemed
>ones were quickened and raised up together with him as their head and
>representative, #Eph 2:5,6; and his in virtue of his being quickened that
>they are regenerated and quickened, and made alive, in a spiritual sense; he
>is the author of their spiritual life, and their life itself; see #1Pe 1:3;
>and not only in virtue of his resurrection is their spiritual resurrection
>from the death of sin to a life of grace, but even their corporeal
>resurrection at the last day; and as, in consequence of their spiritual
>resurrection, they live in the sight of God a life of grace and holiness by
>faith in Christ, and in a comfortable view and enjoyment of the divine
>favour; so they shall live eternally in the presence of God, where are
>fulness of joy, and pleasures for evermore: but the first sense is best, and
>most agreeable to the context and scope of it.
>
>{s} Comment. in Isa. viii. 20.
>
>
>The following cross references refer to the Hosea passage are from the
>Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:
>Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem
>them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy
>destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
>2 Kings 20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus
>saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have
>seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up
>unto the house of the LORD.
>Psalms 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the
>remembrance of his holiness.
>Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they
>arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of
>herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
>Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole
>house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is
>lost: we are cut off for our parts.
>Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord
>GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up
>out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
>Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your
>graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
>1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third
>day according to the scriptures:
>
>Wayne H. Aaland
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Paul responds to Wayne H. Aaland -- Rook Hawkins, 11:14:58 02/23/02 Sat
Wayne,
You intend to leave after dropping a bomb like that? I find again your applied use of metaphor to be in question. When a statement directly gives a subject clearly and precisely as in the issue of both Paul and Jesus stating the messiah would die and rise in three days and then you apply metaphor to unrelated passages that is inventing metaphorical links where there are none. You would have to pull a direct 'messiah text' from any Jewish source which states it was believed the 'messiah' would die and rise again on the third day. It is well known that such a belief concerning the messiah never existed in Judaic messianic thought, it is a claim of the NT story of Jesus. The messiah was not to die, in fact many persons who were proclaimed to be the messiah were given up on when they were killed in battle because the messiah was not to be defeated or killed. You also have the huge problem of Jesus not being 'dead' for three days as claimed.
I firmly believe at this point you could read 'The Night Before Christmas' and see metaphoric links to Jesus. You also stated to me that your relative was a lawyer and it was common for witnesses to have conflicting testimony, I'm wondering what sort of judge or jury would somehow think conflicting stories are related and of use? If I have three eyewitnesses, one says he saw the defendant kill the victim, one says someone else did, and another says he didn't see anyone kill the victim but he was there at the time and saw the other two witnesses, does that somehow allow the jury to make a judgment?
In the text below I see the phrase, "The Jews, in their present state, are as dead men, both in a civil and spiritual sense, and their conversion and restoration will be as life from the dead; they are like persons buried, and, when they are restored, they will be raised out of their graves, both of sin and misery" I wondering is the person a Jew and were they consulted as to what they believe or how they interpret the passages. I happen to know, that is not what they think whatsoever. They in fact refer to the state of Jews at time of the writing of the prophet, lamentations for Israel are all over the prophet texts, they are not speaking of a time in the long distant future. The prophets spoke of the 'day of Lord' coming then, and it is also believed the messiah will appear in the 'last days' . Your arguments are based in unrelated metaphors, reminds me of the apologetic rebuttal I got from another person who claimed all these various prophecies about Jesus, he said when Moses struck the rock twice in desert as God commanded for water for the people, the rock was about Jesus. That sort of reasoning is beyond my comprehension and beyond the appropriate use of metaphor. Is it any wonder you see no contradictions in the Bible, you do not allow the written word to have any direct meaning or subject directive. I'm wondering how you solve numerical issues by metaphor as well.
Paul
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Rook adds his comments -- Rook Hawkins, 11:16:41 02/23/02 Sat
Paul writes: I firmly believe at this point you could read 'The Night Before Christmas' and see metaphoric links to Jesus. You also stated to me that your relative was a lawyer and it was common for witnesses to have conflicting testimony, I'm wondering what sort of judge or jury would somehow think conflicting stories are related and of use? If I have three eyewitnesses, one says he saw the defendant kill the victim, one says someone else did, and another says he didn't see anyone kill the victim but he was there at the time and saw the other two witnesses, does that somehow allow the jury to make a judgment?
Rook: I find it hard to believe that a relative of Wayne's was a Lawyer. Any Lawyer would know that if witnesses have conflicting testimony, then in order to prove his case, he must prove one of them wrong. And indeed, one of them must be wrong. Granted, many times in court, witnesses do have conflicting arguments. But Wayne's failure is that he asserts then that both must be right in some way. This is indeed the opposite of reality. Since if, as Paul says, three claim different stories, then two of them must be lying. Or they have mixed something up. If I were prosecuting this case, I would make clear the following issues concerning the three witnesses:
1: What is the reliability of each witness? Is their testimony accurate? Can I in any way prove that this person would have some disability to limit their perception of the scene?
2: Is there any way I can disprove their alibi? Perhaps I can pinpoint them in a different location at the time they claim they were there. Maybe they didn't even leave their beds that day?
3: If all else fails, then is there any way to use their information to my benefit? Maybe their testimony could actually help my case?
And chances are, if all three remain conflicted, the Judge could rule them as hearsay and discard them from the case. Erasing them completely. Or he might let them stand, only to have the jury come out hung. In all my years studying court cases, I don't recall one where the prosecution or the defense has even allowed such a thing to enter the doors of a courtroom. It's bad for both sides.
In the case of Jesus and his witnesses, surely if all of the Gospels can't agree on something as important on the resurrection, then clearly they can't agree on other issues of less importance. And let me remind you, they don't agree. Now have you questioned these problems? Have you treated this issue as if it were on trial? Why not?
Rook Hawkins
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