VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: [1] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 02:30:56 03/01/02 Fri
Author: Paul, for the Rev
Subject: Brian Emig's message to Dennis, response by RevGadfly

kloMcKinsey wrote:

>He needs help real bad to escape from all his metaphysics.
>
>Subject: Scrutinizing
>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:20:43 -0500
>From: "Brian Emig"
>To:
>
>Hello Mr. McKinsey,
>
>I am a born-again Christian. Although I must confess that I
>am struggling with my faith as of late because it seems I receive
>so many varying conclusions about what the Bible says, there is
>something that I have learned that may be helpful to you. Or,
>it may possibly completely shoot down any idea of contradictions
>in Biblical scripture from here on out.
>
>The particular concept I am speaking of is the idea of "balance".
>There is a balance in the Bible. Many passages may seem to be
>contradictory when there is simply a degree of balance that needs
>to be taken into consideration. For instance, the idea of "turning
>the other cheek" vs. Psalm 144:1 "Blessed be the Lord which
>teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight." They do not
>contradict each other, there is simply a "balance" involved that must
>be understood not by the mind, but by the spirit.
>
>The Bible says that, "The sum of thy (God's) words are truth."
>Scriptures cannot be taken out of the Bible from here and there
>and compared based on this passage. ALL of God's Word taken
>together is the truth is what that passage means. So it must be taken
>ALL together to make sense and be true. Not split apart and compared
>here and there. Christians themselves make this mistake more often
>than not. Many scriptures actually "lie" when taken out of the context
>of the Bible in its entirety.
>
>Another concept to take into consideration is the fact that God's
>Word claims to be "spiritual" in nature and must be "understood
>by the spirit" rather than by the "mind". Like a company president
>said to me the other day - we must let the spirit we receive when we are
>saved teach our mind rather than the other way around. That is
>the way it is supposed to work, potentially that has something to
>do with the errancy you are finding as well. Our finite minds are
>too limited to be able to completely grasp, understand, and
>decipher God's Word on their own.
>
>If the Bible is indeed the Word of God, and everything in it would
>just happen to be true. Then there is a much deeper understanding
>we must reach for that is much higher than we can ever attain unto
>in this life. There's certainly much there to understand. The more
>I study, the less I comprehend it all.
>
>I challenge everyone to do what I did. It is a fair and objective challenge.
>And if we're really honest with ourselves and seek wisdom and the truth
>of all matters, no man can deny my challenge. The challenge: One day,
>I simply said out of a sincere conscience, "God, if you're out there, I need
>to know. If you're out there please reveal yourself to me." After that, there
>were too many "coincidences" that happened to just chalk up to coincidence
>anymore.
>
>I need you to do this for me and tell me what happens for my own sanity's
>sake. Scrutinizing the validity of your own worldview with the possibility
>of your reality crumbling before you is no easy task - I know because this
>is what I've been doing with my faith all the time lately. The worst that
could
>happen if you take my challenge is to find out "nothing happens" and then
simply
>use that as ammunition to shoot down my faith.
>
>Guess we'll find out for sure when we die. Thanks man. Take care.
>
>Regards,
>
>Brian

RevG

Hello Brian, Mr. McKinsey forwarded your email to the B.E. panel, whose purpose
is to assist him in his workload, and to allow the subject of the original
email, different perspectives on the issue of Bible Errancy.

Your email is based on two themes; one that the bible isn't in a state of
contradtion, but balance, and second, that your personal experiences somehow
validate the Bible. Well, let's take them one at a time.

The issue of contradiction is well established textually, the idea of balance is
unfounded. Take this bible passage for example:

Num. 23: 19, "19 God in not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He
should repent: has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will
not make it good?"

I Sam. 15: 29, "29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind;
for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

So from the authors of Numbers and I Samuel, YHWH is single minded in what he
has to say, and what he will do. Now, if you take time to read these passages.

Ezekiel 26: 1-13, "Now it came about in the eleventh year ... that the word of
the Lord came to me saying, 2 son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem
... 3 therefore, thus says the Lord God, 'Behold I am against you, O Tyre, and I
will bring up many nations against you, ... 4 and they will destroy the walls of
Tyre and break down her towers' ... 7 for thus says the Lord God, 'Behold I will
bring upon Tyre from the north **Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon**, king of kings
.... 10 ... when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached, 11
with the hoofs of his horses he will trample ALL your streets. He will slay your
people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground. 12
Also, they will ..., break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and
throw your stones and your timbers and your debris INTO the water. 13 So I will
silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no
more. 14 ... for I the Lord have spoken,' declares the Lord God."

Historically speaking, this never happened, Tyre is still inhabited. Even the
Bible admits the above did not come true.

Eze. 29: 18, "18 Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor
hard against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder was rubbed bare.
But he and his army has no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed
against it."

Where is the balance in that?? Nebuchadnezzar is specifially named as the king
who would ruin Tyre for all time; yet a mere 3 chapters later, YHWH who does not
change his mind, supposedly changes his mind. In short, we are not given any
balance here, but a false prophecy authored by a supposedly omniscient being.
Remember this quote:

I Sam. 15: 29, "29 And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind;
for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

That is a double contradiction, first a statement about YHWH not changing his
mind is refuted by Ezek. 26 and 29; second, Ezek. 26 is refuted by Ezek. 29. So
there is no balance there.

Here is a more blatant contradiction, which refutes your balance theory further;
take the sabbath.

Exodus 20: Observe the Sabbath [in remembrance of YHWH resting on the 7th day]
vs
Deuteronomy 5: Observe the Sabbath [in remembrance of captivity in Egypt]

That is a literal contradiction. Even the NT is no better, take this case:

Matt. 9: 18, "18 While he was saying these things to them, behold, there came a
synagogue official, and bowed down before him, saying, 'My daughter has just
died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live.'"
Note: The official in this account states that his daughter is already dead by
the time he approaches Jesus.

Luke 8: 41-42, "41 And behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was an
official of the synagogue, and he fell at Jesus'feet, and began to entreat him
to come to his house; 42 for he had an only daughter, about twelve years old,
and she was dying...."
Note: The official in this account states that his daughter is dying; she is not
yet dead!

Dead vs dying; there is a difference. Both cannot be true in the same moment of
time space. So what we have here isn't something balancing itself out, but
contradicting each other. All you have done is substitute the word 'balance' in
order to avoid the word 'contradict'; this is like substituting the word
'justice' for 'revenge'.

peace

Rev Gadfly

--
II Cor. 12:16, "Nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by DECEIT."

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Re: Brian Emig part 2 response by RevGadfly -- Rev Gadfly (posted by Paul), 04:19:48 03/02/02 Sat

Hello Paul. Thanks for the compliment. I noticed that I did not answer the
second point; visitors showed up and I emailed it off incomplete. To begin, I
will quote my earlier post:

"Your email is based on two themes; one that the bible isn't in a state of
contradtion, but balance, and second, that your personal experiences somehow
validate the Bible. Well, let's take them one at a time."

The first issue, which is of interest to the panel was dealt with in my previous
email; the second issue I will deal with here. I know that your personal
experiences may hold validity in your opinion about the bible, but one can
easily find anyone from any religion, and they will claim that their personal
experiences validate their particular religions.

For example, while I was in university, I knew a Hindu woman who told me that
she knew Siva existed and loved her due to her personal experiences of praying
and having her prayer answered [she had a sick daughter who mysteriously
recovered]. I seriously doubt that a Christian would take here personal
experiences at face value; for to do so, is to admit that Siva is real. Yet
Brian, we can apply the same standard to you; you may say that your personal
experiences somehow proves something, but personal experiences are not evidence.
My personal experiences proved to me that Christianity is a fraud; a blasphemy
against what I consider God to be morally. So you see, subjective statements are
invalid as a means of proving anything. Actually, such an argument is a logical
fallacy:

*Petitio principii (begging the question) Can be illustrated by the claim that
the Bible is the Word of God; but not demonstrating it. Or in your case, that
the Bible is true because your experiences support it. If you want to use that
as an argument, then you beg two questions:

1) How do you prove that your experiences are hold any validity?
2) How do you prove that your experiences are directly related to the Bible, and
not some other cause. For example, take the Hindu woman I mentioned above, she
ignored the fact that her child was under the care of excellent doctors -- is it
not possible, ever so slightly, that medicine and not a divine being were
responsible for the recovery of the child?

To argue a position logically, you must avoid fallacies and your explanation
must pass Occam's Razor [All things being equal, the best hypothesis is the one
making the fewest assumptions].

So you may have had some experiences, but those experiences are worthless from
an objective point of view; and trying to validate the Bible with such an
argument fails before it even starts.

peace

Rev Gadfly


[ Edit | View ]


[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.