Re: The nature of original sin, Adam and Eve -- McKinsey's Biblical Errancy Forum Group

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Date Posted: 02:01:41 02/12/02 Tue
Author: Paul Angle
Subject: Re: The nature of original sin, Adam and Eve
In reply to: Joyce Amic 's message, "Re: The nature of original sin, Adam and Eve" on 02:00:03 02/12/02 Tue

Dear J,

I was being rather humorus in my legal assumptions of the matter. But since you wish to argue points and doctrine: The problem with your summation is that it is the Christian doctrine and claim of things has absolutely no foundation in Judaism or any other text other than its own. The doctrine of 'original sin' is a gentile Christian invention, the idea the messiah would come and disregard the Law and die for everyone's sin is also a gentile Christian invention, the entire notion the messiah as some supernatural 'as god' deity is also patently Christian. No where along any lines of Judaic teaching past or present do these ideas present themselves yet Christian's claim Jesus is the Jewish messiah, the Jews do not and for two important reasons. Jesus met and fulfilled none of the Jewish prophecies of the messiah, not one!! There is a substancial list of them used by the Jews to create the messiah ideal and have been believed and used by them since before the alleged time of Jesus. The second reason is that claiming Jesus divine or as god is a complete blasphemy to Judaic teaching and thought, it is impossible for them to remain Jews and believe in the Jesus story, it violates the very law which makes the Jews sacred to God and their covenant with him. The main tenant of Judaism is monotheism, the Torah and Prophets speak over and over of the single essence of God, 'there is none but God', 'no one beside him', 'God is alone', the messiah was just a man, a warrior, liberator promised by the prophets who despite numerous claimants never manifested in history because all of them failed to fulfill the prophecies.

Christian's have made every attempt to insist thousands of prophecies exist in the Bible pertaining to Jesus but they fail simple elementary analysis of what a prophecy is. It is the prophets and their text which created the messiah idea, not the Torah or the Psalms. The Christian's claim all the Jewish prophecies they ignore are future happenings, two problems here, these are the signs of the messiah believed by the Jews even before the time of Jesus, and the 'end of days' or 'last days' are to occur when the messiah appears. The messiah was never to come and die and, rise from the dead, appear again, and float into heaven to reappear again for a third time thousands of years later. You may try in vain to find this in any Jewish text from any source, it is a Christian invention. Christian's have attempted to use extreme tenses of metaphors to claim a passage is a prophecy concerning Jesus, as in Moses striking a rock in the desert as God commanded for water for the people and presto its about Jesus; that simply is not a prophecy, it is a bad use of metaphor.

Another claim Christian's claim is the concept of an eternal hell of punishment, this also has never been a Judaic teaching. The further problems you have is that the NT texts contradict each other on every single event, they do not tell the same story. From the geneologies offered for Jesus, to the false claim of his virgin birth, to the events in his life and his death no two accounts cooroborate, yet we are told all these things come from 'eyewitness' accounts. Jesus does not appear in historic texts as he should despite the incredible amount of editing and destruction of texts performed by the early church. Christian's are faced with emmense problems concerning their faith, no other text cooroborates their texts and their belief is the antithesis of Judaic teaching.

You state many things concerning the nature and 'plan for the Ages' of God, but no such plan exists except within the imagination of those who make that assumption. It is a claim of the Christian faith and the Christian faith alone, nothing else aligns with it yet it still claims Jewish origins. The Bible has spawned three major religions, each of them being irreconcilable with each other in their claims. It has become the grandiose assumption of all time to insist that 'God' must be aligned to this book and texts. The Bible is an ambiguous contradiction from end to end it makes no correlating, cooroborative sense. Hence, the uncountable versions and sects of Christianity throughout the world and the infinite number afforded on a personal level.

Paul

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[> [> [> Re: The nature of original sin, Adam and Eve -- Paul Angle (Biblical passages concerning 'Orginal Sin'), 02:10:16 02/12/02 Tue

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." -Romans 3:23. "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one." -Romans 3:10 "For there is no man that sinneth not." -1 Kings 8:46 and 2 Chron. 6:36. "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God." -Mark 10:18. "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." -Eccl. 7:23

"Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." -Genesis 6:9. "And the Lord said unto Noah, 'Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me...." -Job 1:8 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." -Job1:1 "..Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and upright man..." -Job 1:8 "...there was a priest named Zacharias,...he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." -Luke 1:5-6

"For as in Adam all die" -1 Cor. 15:22. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..." -Romans 5:19. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." -Romans 5:12

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers." - Deut. 24:16. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." -Ezek. 18:20. "O ye house of israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." -Ezek. 33:20
[This is most enlightening, we can see this directly refutes the main believed tenant of Christianity in that all have sinned. This notion is often convoluted with the idea that it is the Law which makes all sinners from birth and that Jesus has undone this.]

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