Response from Rev to Tina (the Rev's last post) -- McKinsey's Biblical Errancy Forum Group

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Date Posted: 02:37:03 04/03/02 Wed
Author: Paul for Rev Gadfly
Subject: Response from Rev to Tina (the Rev's last post)

[I'm sure many will miss the Rev as I will, a very knowledable guy. We wish him the best.]

>Subject: Original sin
>Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:47:27 +1200
>From: "Ralph Gillard"
>To:
>

Tina:
>Hi Dennis
>
>I have just come across your site this evening while surfing the net,
>and have found it very interesting. I have read your points on original
>sin, and can see what you are saying, but am sad to see that you have
>only half the picture. Sure we inherited a sinful nature from Adam who
>wilfully sinned and disobeyed God, when he took the fruit of the tree of
>the knowledge of good and evil.

RevG

First, that is an interpretation of the text and has no foundation in the text
itself.

Second, we did not inherit anything, for the story is merely an allegory. Adam
is merely the Hebrew word for 'Mankind' and Eve is a distortion of the Hebrew
word 'Chavvah', which means 'LIFE'. The allegory is that mankind turned its back
on YHWH when it became preoccupied with its life. The Jews for the most part
recognize this allegory for what it is, and Judaism is a religion based on
teaching through allegory; and Jews WROTE the story. It is Christians who are
deluded with this inherited original sin nonsense who interpret Genesis to
reflect their own theology. Have you ever read this:

Deut. 24:16, "16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor
shall sons be put ot death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to
death for his OWN sin."

There are a number of passages in the Bible to this effect, but Christians
ignore them. Also, did you ever read Exo. 20: 5? It clearly states that even if
children HATE the Lord, the punishment will not exceed the 4th generation --
that is a biblical statute of limitations. Even if Adam was a single man, his
punishment would not exceed past his great-great grandchildren.

Also, Adam didn't take the fruit from the tree if you actually read the story as
it is written; and his eating it was an almost unconscience act.

Tina:
>He, as the very first man bought sin and
>its penalty into the human race. Very unfortunate.

RevG

Adam wasn't even A man, the word means 'mankind' and it is used over 500 times
in the Tanakh, or what Christians call the Old Testament. The unfortunate thing
is that Christians have been manipulated by priests and put on a pointless guilt
trip over a mere parable passed off as a historical event.

Tina:
> But because God is perfect,

RevG

A perfect god would not get frustrated or identify his own name as "Jealous";
yet the bible god does this repeatedly.

Tina:
>He cannot accept sin, and thus cannot accept sinful man.

RevG

Does sin exist in and of itself? According to the Bible, 'Sin' only exists
because the bible god wants it to exist -- it gives him an excuse to act like a
tyrant and kill people.

Tina:
> You
>see His standards are high, and nothing but perfection is acceptable.

RevG

Eze. 14: 9, "9 If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have
deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will
destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

Are you implying that a perfect being deceives people in order to destroy them?

Tina:
>What a hopeless state we are in. What hope has mere man to ever get
>right with God? That is where you have ended it, but there is more.
>Much more.

RevG

We are not in a hopeless state, that nonsense is the propaganda peddled by the
clerics of the revealed religions. I will prove you wrong about getting in right
with this god of yours.

Ezek. 20: 25-26,"25 Wherefore I GAVE THEM also statutes that were not good, AND
judgments whereby they should not live; 26 and I POLLUTED THEM in their own
gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb,
that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the
Lord." Here bible god admits to instituting human
sacrifice.

So how can one get in right with a god [I use the lower case on purpose] who
gives us false teachings, punishing us for accepting or refusing them. This god
is a sadist, someone who is obsessed with punishing. To think this god of the
Christians is God, is to have a very low opinion of what is expected from a
decent God.

Tina:
> You make it sound that because of Adam we have no hope and the human
>race will all be condemned because of it.

RevG

No, that is what Christianity teaches; along with the blasphemy that God is
incapable of forgiving short of spilling blood.

Tina:
> That is not the case. Even
>from the beginning God knew there must be a way to get man right with
>Himself, so he sent the ultimate sacrifice to take the punishment for
>every sin we will ever commit.

RevG

This is a profane idea; any DECENT being would simply correct the problem, he or
she would not resort to murder as a solution.

Tina:
> His only Son, who was with Him from the beginning, Jesus Christ. He sent Him
to earth to die on the cross and take the punishment for us.

RevG

If you had a son and were angry at the people of your town, would you kill him
as a precondition of forgiving your neigbors? Jesus did not die for any sins, he
didn't even exist; the gospels clearly state that he died because he crossed the
Romans who executed him for sedition.

Tina:
> The perfect sacrifice, without sin.

RevG
A HUMAN sacrifice is not an acceptable sacrifice under the sacrifical
regulations of YHWH's Law, which he supposedly dictated to Moses. Christians say
this law was in effect up to the moment of Jesus' death, yet his death is in
violation of every single statute in it. For example:

Jesus' death is a violation of each of the regulations set in the Law:
*Jesus is a human; only the prescribed animals allowed.
*Jesus is killed at a place of execution; only at the temple can an atonement
sacrifice be offered and killed.
*Jesus was killed at the hands of Gentiles; only a priest could kill an
atonement sacrifice.
*Jesus was nailed to a cross; only by blood loss from a slit throat was
acceptable for an atonement sacrifice.
*Jesus was either left to rot on the cross [normal Roman practice], or buried
[as the NT maintains]; an atonement sacrifice had
to be burnt afterwards, no exceptions.

Actually, the idea of a messiah redeeming another's sin is contrary to Judaism:

Psalm 49: 7, "7 No man can by any means redeem his brother, Or give to
God a ransom for him --"

Tina:
> A free
>gift of salvation for all who trust in Him to save them from their sin.

RevG

What free gift? Have you read the gospels? According to the gospels Jesus was in
hiding and hunted down by the Romans and Jewish temple guards with the help of
Judas. Jesus repeatedly begged in the garden previously that his 'destiny' would
pass him in the garden in an effort to get out of it.
In all fairness to Jesus, the gospels never have him say that he would be a
sacrifice, only that he would be killed by Gentiles; it is christian mythology
which invented the sacrifice nonsense.

Tina:
>Not the sin of Adam, but our own practice of disobedience to Gods
>standards.

RevG

What standards are those? The inability to forgive without first killing
someone?

Tina:
> Our selfishness, greed, lying, stealing, dishonesty, etc
>etc.

RevG

Those words can be used to describe YHWH.

Tina:
> Wilfully practiced by us, on a day to day basis, just part of our
>nature that we inherited from Adam.

RevG

We inherit nothing from Adam, we ARE Adam. Adam is merely the Hebrew word for
man and mankind.

Tina:
> If you had been in Adams position
>would you have chosen to obey God or would you have taken the apple too.

RevG

Obviously you never read the bible. There is no APPLE in the story.

Tina:
>No one knows except God. I'm not sure I would have done the right
>thing, especially with the devil tempting me.

RevG

There is no devil in Judaism, and Eve [not Adam] was tempted by a talking snake,
which is clearly identified as a 'beast of the field'.

Tina:
> Because Christ rose from the dead, he defeated death and its power and
>so too when we who are trusting in His saving power die, we with the
>same power that Christ was resurrected with, will also be resurrected
>and will go to be with Him.

RevG

That is a fairy tale; there was no Christ. I will prove that Jesus was a phoney.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven.
vs.
Gen. 5:24, Enoch ascends into heaven without dying. [outdoing Jesus]
II Kings 2: 11 Elijah ascends into heaven without dying. [also outdoing Jesus]

Strange that the godman would forget these stories which practically every
Jewish child has been taught for over 2,000 years. Seems that the godman didn't
know his own scriptures.

Tina:
> God did not leave us without hope.

RevG

II Thess. 2: 11-12, "11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding
influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they may
all be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."

If god is sending us deluding influences, then what hope is there for this god
and those who trust in it? How do you know that Christianity isn't the deluding
influence in question?

Tina:
> His love is too vast for that.

RevG

Was his love so vast that he ordered David to take a census of the people of
Israel, just to then kill 70,000 people because David obeyed? II Samuel 24:1,
15-17. If God told President Bush to do something, and President Bush did; would
it be love too vast for God to kill 70,000 Americans over it!

Tina:
> Even before we die, we can have direct
>access to the Father on a day to day basis.

RevG

Thanks for reminding me, you Christians don't even have a single God. God is
merely a term you use like mankind; you have three gods: a father, a son, and a
spirit; but to avoid the accusation of polytheism aimed at you by Jews [and
rightfully so], you start to play word games.

Tina:
> From the moment we accept
>His free gift of salvation and trust in His power to save us, we can
>speak to Him and trust Him to guide our lives and know with certainty
>that He controls every area of our life if we are walking in His ways.

RevG

Critical thinking seems to be alien to you. How is his gift FREE if it is
conditional? If it was FREE we would have it and not need ot accept anything. Go
take a few logic courses before you make any more a fool of yourself than you
already have.

Tina:
>And even if we fall away from Him, he is always ready to forgive us and
>accept us back, and can even use our mistakes to teach us valuable
>lessons that can draw us into a closer relationship to Him.

RevG

This type of trash is common to all religions. I will ask my friend Ali for his
comment. Ali: Even if we fall away from Allah p.b.u.h. and his prophet, he is
willing to forgive. For Allah p.b.u.h. is merciful, and repentence brings us
into a closer relationship with him.

Tina:
> Proverbs
>3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths.

RevG

This proverb is more revealing: Eccles. 10:19, "Wine makes life merry, and money
is the answer to EVERYTHING."

Tina:
> We can have complete peace and assurance that the God of the universe is in
complete control of our lives.

RevG

If that was true, then how is it this signs doesn't accompany you?

Mark 16: 17-18, "15 And He [Jesus] said to them, '17 And these signs will
accompany those who have believed: 18 ... if they drink ANY deadly poison, it
shall not hurt them ....'"

I bet if you put liquid draino on your tongue, it will HURT.

Tina:
> For the past 20 years or more I have had
>that peace and assurance. Even in times of great difficulty and
>testing, He gives me a peace that passes all understanding.

RevG

Ever since I recognized the falseness of the bible god and Jesus, I have had
greater peace and prosperity than ever. Your witness to the above is worthless;
how do we know you are not just making it up?

Tina:
>So you see, even if it seemed unfair of God to make us suffer for the
>wrong that Adam did, and I admit, I don't always understand the ways of
>God, after all I am just the creation, He is the Creator, how could I
>ever expect to fathom His way of thinking.

RevG

Are you a moron? I cannot stand self inflated pompous asses who go on about what
God is like and what God wants; only to put on the fake humility hat and then
claim that they cannot fathom his way of thinking. I accuse you of being a
hypocrite; you pretense at humility is disgusting after the tripe you wrote.

Tina:
> Yet he has made a way of
>escape. To bring us back into a relationship with Him, and the ultimate
>price was paid by Him not by us.

RevG

That nonsense has no basis in the Tanakh [Jewish Bible], even your Old Testament
cannot support that nonsense. The messiah in the Tanakah isnt' a human sacrifice
and he isn't perfect. Here is a REAL messanic prophecy which hypocrites like you
ignore so that you can blaspheme God by worshipping a fictional man.

[Tanakh JPS] II Sam. 7:12-16, "12 When your days are done and you lie down with
your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own issue,
and I will establish his kingship. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I
will establish his royal throne forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he
shall be a son to Me. *When he does wrong*, I will
chastise him with the rod of men and the affliction of mortals; but I will never
withdraw My favor from him as I withdrew it from Saul, whom I removed to make
room for you. Your house and your kingship shall ever be secure before you; your
throne shall be established forever."

*When he does wrong*, I will chastise him with the rod of men
*When he does wrong*, I will chastise him with the rod of men
*When he does wrong*, I will chastise him with the rod of men

Tell us Tina, did Jesus fulfill the above? If he is perfect, than he cannot be
the messiah.

Tina:
>
>Thanks for letting me have the chance to pass on my point of view

RevG

That was not a point of view, that was a sermon by a hypocrite in the nth
degree.

Here are two quotes by Thomas Paine [ever hear of him?], which I am sure you are
too dense to comprehend, but for the sake of the other readers, I am including.

"If I owe a person money and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in
prison, another person can take the debt upon himself and pay it for me; but if
I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed; moral
justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty, even if the innocent would
offer himself. To suppose justice to do this is to destroy the principle of its
existence, which is the thing itself; it is then no longer justice, it is
indiscriminate revenge." -- Thomas Paine

"There are also many who have been enthusiastically enraptured by what they
conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of
Himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from
examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story." -- Thomas Paine

Do everyone a favor Tina, prove Jesus' worthless promise about immunity to
poison true; then MAYBE we will consider what you say as having ANY merit.

[I susually sign off with 'peace', but you Tina are unworthy of that compliment]

Rev Gadfly
--
II Cor. 12:16, "Nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by DECEIT."

Yes Tina, Paul surely took you in by Deceit, and now you are trying to take us
in.

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