| Subject: Comment on the comments. |
Author:
drex
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Date Posted: 08:20:57 06/06/02 Thu
In reply to:
Drayab
's message, "My comments (also long)" on 04:48:54 06/06/02 Thu
>It's always nice to see that someone else has been
>thinking the same thing as you; it makes you think
>that maybe you're not crazy afterall. After Malik
>said that merchants would pull us out of this slump I
>decided that I would let this thread lie for a while
>and see what happened before I started expounding on
>what I have been thinking. Anywho, here is someone
>else that has came to the same conclusions as me, so I
>think I will do some commenting of my own.
>
>>SUMMARY
>>
>>There are two major causes to how money disappears out
>>of the flow:
>>
>>* NPC Merchants
>>* Banks (and Exchange Offices)
>>
>>NPC Merchants
>>
>>By this, I mean those merchants who are not run by a
>>PC/House/Government.
>>Some of these NPC merchants earn a LOT of money, but
>>don't spend it, as
>>it in some cases is not possible for PC's to sell back
>>to them.
>>(bakers, merchants selling npcs, horse-dealers, house
>>keepers..)
>>Some even have an infinite number of items. (bread,
>>npcs, pouches..)
>>Money comes back into the flow by taxes.. but it's a
>>quite small part and
>>with little gain for the players as is.
>>
>>Possible solutions:
>>* Let the shops be controlled by a PC/Noble House or
>>the Government.
>> More noble houses required?
>> (why don't the Empire use the benefits of pentagonal
>>coins?)
>>* Let the city's ground be owned by Houses/Govern.,
>>House and Living
>> would have to pay rent for the space, so as with all
>>the other shopkeepers.
>>* Good oportunity for the government to make even more
>>money.
>>* Easier to rob/steal from the shopkeepers, not
>>necessarily players
>> doing that.
>>* Somehow make the merchants spend their money,
>>without PC involvement.
>>* Make it possible for PC's to sell products to the
>>merchants with
>> a lot of money (especially those with infinite
>>number of items)
>>
>>For example:
>>Bakers buying wheat (or similar) at a set price as
>>long as they have gold.
>>Possibility for catching horses/slaves.. selling them
>>to the NPC-selling
>>merchant. Or, a command (skill?) 'drafting', which
>>allows you to draft
>>an NPC (from a tavern perhaps), by paying him
>>directly, though the npc would
>>need training and such and thus its value would be
>>increased by the npc
>>selling merchant. The NPC-selling merchant should also
>>need to buy weapons
>>and clothes for their merchants in order to sell them
>>equipped. (right now
>>some come with weapons)
>>
>>
>Yes, I also think those NPCs where cash is regularly
>given to the merchant and there is no way of
>reclaiming the money are places where money becomes
>stagnant in the game. The bakers are a prime example
>of this. There is nothing to sell to them, they are
>run by no noble house, and PCs buy food from them all
>the time. They end up with a nice horde of money, but
>for what? Again, a nice quick fix would be to have
>them buy wheat (or something) from players in exchange
>for gold. I like the other solutions suggested by Drex
>as well, with a couple of exceptions; they would just
>take more work to set up. Ideally, I think all
>merchants in the game should be under the control of a
>PC. That way, the PC can put the money back into
>circulation.
>
>Property taxes might not be a bad idea. We don't want
>too much money going to the government, though. There
>needs to be a balance.
>
>I don't particularly like the 'drafting' idea. I like
>the way that is set up now. However, something needs
>to be done to reclaim those merchants' money.
Here's one idea how drafting would work.
You head to a tavern, type, 'draft', which works like list, you get to see a list of available npcs you can draft (who you cannot virtually see in the room) dependant on what tavern/room you are in... then the money you pay would go to the merchant himself. Not to a npc merchant. PC merchants could use their bartering skills to buy them cheaper. I believe this system would be more realistic than an npc merchant selling npc's. But it would require more codewise though. But another bonus is that no money goes to an npc shopkeeper.
Possibilities to sell npc's you are the master to would open up to slavery and possibilities to sell horses. Making raids against another race to subdue them, enslave them (NPC's) selling them as cheap manpower. This would also make the money flow around an npc shopkeeper dealing with npc-selling.
Like it or not, this was an explanation.
>I don't think thieves should be a benefit to the
>economy. I think the money stagnation/wastage problems
>ought to be fixed by something that seems legitimate
>by RL standards.
Robin Hood. Stealing from the rich, giving to the poor? Who would play that valiant role? :P
>>BANKS (AND EXCHANGE OFFICES)
>>Players dying causes money to be swallowed by the
>>bank, removed from the game.
>>No good, as a huge amount of money is cut from the
>>flow. Taxes at least brings
>>some part of it.. but just the top of the iceberg.
>>
>>Possible solutions:
>>* Decrease the value of banks, or remove them
>>completely (see below)
>>* Make them House/PC/Govern. run
>>* Robberies/Stealing easier
>>* Taxes or bank fees
>>* Players get an account ticket, which is not
>>personal, so if one dies, another
>> PC could get that ticket and use that account.
>>* Introducing command for bartering items, making the
>>world less dependant on gold (and banks)
>>
>>Decreased value of banks.
>>Making it unprofitable to keep money in banks (or
>>removing banks) would force people
>>to find other solutions. Like:
>>* Hiding their wealth
>>* Investing (jewlery, furs, projects.. etc)
>>* Other means of safekeeping (A noble house would keep
>>chests with treasure in their compounds,
>> the government would perhaps have a vault with
>>guards etc..) Would be interesting for
>> thieves.
>>
>>Exchange offices could also be run by a power block.
>>(government or house perhaps?)
>>And perhaps more realistic, forcing the exchange
>>office to actually have the money
>>required. Perhaps forcing them to make money
>>transports to other cities to exchange
>>money.
>>
>I think this is a great idea! I've always thought
>would be cool if a thief could try to rob the bank and
>get all that money that has been accumulated over the
>years. However, in the current system the money is
>just stored as a number and it passes out of existence
>when you deposit it, and it is recreated when you
>withdraw it. I think it would be really cool if the
>bank was an actual building with multiple rooms and a
>vault where the player's money is stored. Then the
>money is not actually lost when a player dies, and
>maybe a clever thief could pop the safe. The bank
>could become involved in other activities. If a noble
>house (or the government) had control of the bank then
>all sorts of things would be possible, which I won't
>go into now for the sake of avoiding rambling. The
>idea of people hording up money outside the bank is
>also cool. I can imagine treasure chests with gold and
>whatnot inside.
>
>>OTHER THOUGHTS
>>
>>Possibilites for selling raw material is needed. From
>>there the wealthy
>>Houses/merchants would buy, giving the raw material
>>guy money and the producing pc's
>>(mining, fishing, foraging, farming etc..) would have
>>a chance to earn some money.
>>Whether it be bakeries buying wheat or a grocery stand
>>or a mineral shop..
>>
>Yes, I agree. Right now nearly all the wealth in the
>game originates from newbies and, to a lesser extent,
>merchants. The problem with merchants is they can only
>add wealth to items, not create it from nothing.
Yes, very true.. some merchants are not enough to bring the flow back.. (*wink* Malik) Based on my own experience..
No.. the flaws needs to be fixed first.
>>Repopping npcs shouldn't have items with much value..
>>look at the inflation of midnight
>>black broadswords, red capes (no longer repopping
>>though) etc.. Players selling such
>>things that are in overflow makes them richer but most
>>often ends with the players
>>dying and the money ending up in banks, and leaves the
>>shopkeepers with no money.
>>
>>
>Another good point. The expensive items in the game
>ought to be created by the merchants. NPCs ought to
>pop with items that are either worthless or are bought
>from a merchant via a virtual interaction. I think
>this is one of the major reasons why none of the
>weapon/armor merchants in Kaiden have any money.
>
Indeed.
>>ANALYSIS OF THE ONGOING SITUATION
>>The players bring money into the game, houses and
>>government getting richer. (taxes.. etc)
>>The government spends most money on NPCs, money which
>>disappears from the flow.
>>No money is spent on paying PCs (discouraging players)
>>and no money is spent on buying
>>armor/weapon (a ruined oportunity for PC's/Houses
>>dealing with arms to spire in the situation)
>>Weak noble houses take no advantage of the situation..
>>less job opportunities for players.
>>The few who earn money in the situation most often
>>takes it from other players.. and those
>>who earn money eventually die, leaving their money at
>>the bank.
>
>Yes, yes, yes! A good analysis, Drex!
>
>>
>>The circulation of money is hindered by these.. and
>>something must be done to make the flow work.
>
>But, of course! :-)
>
>>A future problem when this has been fixed would be too
>>much money being brought into the game
>>by more and more players.. which would lead to
>>inflation.. but that's a problem of the future..
>>(but it would be cool if gold would lose its value
>>making it a good investment to exchange to
>>another currency etc..)
>>
>Yeah, probably so. Although it doesn't hurt to think
>about it now, I think that's a long way off.
>
>I think it should be said that some wastage of money
>in the game is desirable in order to fight inflation.
>Perhaps some controls will have to be added eventually
>in order to combat it. Or maybe it will work itself
>out. Maybe rich empires will be more likely to declare
>war. Maybe they will buy cannon fodder and send it off
>to die in battle. So, money becomes more scarce and
>therefore inflation decreases.
>
I don't agree with you that money would be more scarce when war rages. Quite the reversed.. during a war, people would have to work harder.. taxes would rise and so but on the whole, no money would 'disappear'. The difference is that other ones would earn the big cash like those making weapons/armor, training soldiers, selling soldiers..
Things would start costing when the war started destroying things.. like sieges and such.. destroying buildings and ravaging would be costsome.. but then the rebuilding process would start and those who hade the edge before, would realize their time passed.. no one would care much for soldiers and weapons.. instead, builders and constructers would be needed.. You get the picture.
Of course.. money could also wander out of the realm, but not out of the game. For example, an army of 25 dwarven npc soldiers are sent to Kaiden with full plates of steel armor and steel weapons. They all die, Kaiden grabs all that steel and all their belongings. The dwarves are less wealthy but the other side gained something. The losers are the governments who spent all that money on the dwarves soldier training. But the money does not disappear from the flow by that.. it just wanders.
>On a side note, I think this is all very interesting.
>I think the economy in 4L is becoming more like a real
>economy, and I think we're going to find that
>economics as we might study in school would be helpful
>in finding the sort of things we might need to do to
>make this work. Has any of the players studied
>economics intensively? Personally, I know very little
>about it, and I'd like to know what someone who has
>actually studied it has to say about all this.
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