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Date Posted: 14:37:28 05/25/99 Tue
Author: Richard
Subject: Re: to Richard
In reply to: Daniel 's message, "Re: to Richard" on 08:23:30 05/20/99 Thu

> I believe that space/time relativism does not impact
> God, yet I believe that there is something called
> "absolute time", or better said "God's Time".

Is "absolute time" a biblical concept? What does it mean and how does it intersect with the time dimension of the universe? It sounds like you are trying to redefine a second dimension of time.

> If you have read Russ Humphries work then you can see
> that there is a potential for such phenomenom.

Humphries physics is bad. If you want the technical analysis of his errors, contact Reasons To Believe and they will send you a detailed paper containing all the equations refuting his ideas.

Okay, let's do Greek!
> > 1. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the
> > beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
Here are my Greek lexicon's definitions:

G5550. chronos, a prim. word; time:-- age(1), all(1), delay(1), for a while(5), long(5), long*(1), long ages(2), period(2), time(30), times(5).

G166. aiwnios, from G165; agelong, eternal:-- eternal(67), eternity(1), forever(1).

Chronos has nothing to do with worlds, but only time, or ages. It is not before the world, but before time.

> So if we accept both translations: then it is possible
> that the meaning could be "...before the time of this
> world began..."

If it is "before the time of this world began," then it must be a different dimension of time.

> > 2. The hope of eternal life, which God... promised
> > before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

> Read above. same condition applies.

Titus 1:2 Greek:
chronos:G5550 chronos:G5550 pro:G4253

G4253. pro, a prim. prep.; before:-- above(2), ago(4), ahead*(2), before(33), in front of(2), just outside(m)(1), prior to(1), right at(m)(1)

A good translation might be "before [pro:G4253] the time [chronos:G5550] of this age [chronos:G5550]", i.e., before our dimension of time existed.

> > 3. To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ
> > our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority,
> > before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude
> 1:25)
> >
> The above translation is a fabrication. Read the
> greek. "before all time" does not exist in this
> pasage. What translation are you using?

to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. (Jude 1:25) NIV

to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25) NASB

KJV/NKJV do not use the best manuscript evidence, but took the texts used to make the Latin Vulgate. I suggest sticking with NASB.

Here is the Greek:

pro:G4253 pas:G3956 aiwn:G165

pro:G4253 before - see above

G3956. pas, a prim. word; all, every:-- all(735), all*(1), all kinds(1), all men(21), all respects(3), all things(133), always*(3), any(17), anyone(3), anything*(1), anything(3), constantly*(1), continually*(6), entire(4), every(129), every form(1), every kind(9), every man(2), every respect(1), every way(2), everyone(63), everyone*(1), everyone's(1), everything(43), forever*(1), full(2), great(2), however*(1), no*(11), no one*(5), nothing*(m)(1), nothing(1), perfectly(m)(1), quite(1), whatever(2), whatever*(2), whoever(7), whole(17).

G165. aiwn, from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration; a space of time, an age:-- age(20), ages(6), ancient time(1), beginning of time(m)(1), course(m)(1), eternal(2), eternity(1), ever*(2), forever(27), forever and ever(20), forevermore(2), never*(8), old(2), time(1).

"before all time" is the most literal translation of those 3 Greek words. Can it get any clearer?


> What I have said is that you cannot interpret the
> bible using your hermeutic to describe, failed
> prophecy, man's free will, the power of prayer, the
> fact the God changes, that he repents...etc. The
> interpretation I am putting forth is consistent and
> reveals a God that is incredibly powerful, because in
> spite of man's disobedience God ultimately is
> passionate, graceful and still able to fulfill his
> will. Can't you see that a God in time is far greater
> than one out side of time. Your God peeks into the
> future, my God makes the future. Big difference!

God must be BOTH within time (our time) and outside time (another dimension of time) simultaneously. If He is not in time, then He can have no interactions with us (deist position). If he is not outside of our time, then He cannot see or control what will happen in the future. God not only foreknows and predestines, but allows free-will of humans simultaneously. How can that be possible in only a single dimension of time?

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